Best flight schools?

[Noam]

It has been several years since I learned how to fly, so I need some advice from you guys.

I have a friend who is in his early 20's who just graduated from college and has always wanted to be an airline pilot. He doesn't have any flight time and wants to go to one of those schools where he can get his ratings and certificates and eventually become a regional pilot.

He wants to go to a respectable, well known place. I recommended Flight Safety, but are there any others?

Thanks,

Noam

 

[FSB99]

nope.

 

[Chunk]

uh-uh.

 

[SDdriver]

I would suggest to your friend to chose another career..unless he likes being broke and getting laid off at least once every year or so. I have had 3 furloughes in 3 years, if he still wants to pursue a career in aviation, then there are plenty of schools out there.
I did all my ratings with private instructors at my own pace and saved a TON of money, nobody ever cared if I went to a "Flight School" or just did my ratings at the local FBO. I can tell you out of many jobs flying and even my first job, no employer ever asked where I got my ratings and if it was at a flight school, all they cared is that I had them and was a capable pilot. FLight schools are very expensive so that is why I didn't choose that route. I would just work and save up a few grand and then go get a rating, then work some more and save and go get another, till I had them all. It was a very cheap and easy way to do it. Others might disagree, but that was my experience.

I would for sure DISCOURAGE him from ever doing anything PFT!! Instill in him that when he becomes a employable pilot, that he work for all of his hours, NOT PAY FOR THEM. It is a LONG road filled with lots of sacrafice and I can tell you from experience that it does not pay to take short cuts. The lessons and experience you gain from instructing, towing banners, flying traffic, hauling night freight, and pilot services, is INVALUBLE and helps prepare you for each step up the ladder. Paying for hours and skipping all of that experience and jumping right into flying a jet is not a respectable thing to do in this industry, and only hurts your fellow pilots. If your friend has any doubts that what I am saying is not true, do a search on PFT (pay for training) on this board and read how bad people look upon that practice. The respect your earn, and the experience you gain, from slugging it out in the trenches like many of us have, is well worth it in the end.

Like I said the only advice I can give is from my own experience from getting all my licenses and ratings from the local FBO and a GOOD instructor, I am very glad I did it that way and have no regrets. Maybe some of the other guys here can offer advice on good 141 schools that don't talk you into PFTing after you are done with your ratings. Tell your friend good luck and by all means work hard and get paid for every hour he flyes after his initial investment in his ratings. Tell him don't get caught up in trying to short cut his way to the top, it DOES'NT pay to PAY, regardless of what some might say.

TAke care.

SD

 

[stillaboo]

There are many good flight schools. Search the forum and you should come up with some threads that have covered the pitfalls of each.

FSI is one of the best. You might want to look at Riddle and MAPD too.

-Boo!

 

[bobbysamd]

ERAU, FSI and MAPD

I instructed at all three, in roughly that order. Each has something to offer.

Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University is one of the oldest and best known aviation colleges. It has tremendous name recognition in the industry, positive and negative. I always felt that ERAU Aeronautical Science students received a great education - one that I wished I had. They receive good, standardized flight training - but not necessarily better than other high-quality schools. Riddle students have chances at internships that are indeed "priceless" - but so do students at U.N.D., Purdue, and Auburn, etc.

There is a lot of senseless bureaucracy and politics in the Riddle flight program, which causes many students who came in with the eyes wide open to leave in frustration. Undoubtedly there is a lot of senseless bureaucracy and politics in other flight programs, which causes many of their students who came in with their eyes wide open to leave in frustration.

Riddle students, or their parents, shell out prodigious amounts of money for their education. I feel they get what they pay for, to a point. They very well could get a similar quality education for less money at any good state school that has a flight program and not suffer any disadvantage because their degree does not say ERAU.

FlightSafety Academy is an extremely fine commercial flight school. FSI carries great name recognition in the industry. No degrees. It is a six-month program in excellent facilities and in good, well-maintained airplanes. I did not care especially for my employment there, but I am pleased to vouch for the program. The flight training is excellent and standardized, and includes acro and unusual attitudes training. Not many programs offer such training. The ground school is adequate. Students can obtain their CFIs at FSI and perhaps work there - or perhaps not. Those opportunities are driven by aviation hiring. I heard there is a six-month CFI waiting list at FSI.

While I like FSI's program I've always been concerned about it and other accelerated programs. Becoming a Commmercial pilot in six months requires you to absorb a great deal of learning and unfamiliar concepts quickly. You may not learn it to the depth you should and unless you can use it immediately after finishing you might forget much of what you learned as quickly as you learned it. On the other hand, an accelerated program creates momentum which sustains training and imparts discipline which will help you learn.

We have a good discussion going on this thread on MAPD, so I won't repeat here what I wrote there. The long and short of MAPD, though, is you graduate with an A.A.S. in Aviation Technology, your certificates, and, if you mind your Ps and Qs, you are guaranteed an interview with Mesa Airlines, meaning you can be hired as a regional airline pilot at 300 hours. Do read the thread and run a search on MAPD for more information.

Hope this helps. Good luck to your friend.

 

[LearLove]

"Best flight schools? "

Best flight school you ask? ......

1500 ft grass strip, a J-3 and a full tank of gas.

 

[SDdriver]

Hey Bobbysamd,

Do you think though that getting hired at a regional at 300hrs is a good thing? I mean sure it is remarkable to be flying an RJ at 300hrs, but don't you think that this pilot would be denied a lot of really good experience by going that route? I mean do you think a 300hr pilot is really ready for a complex Jet at 300hrs? I look back to 300hrs and a Baron 58 was overwhelming to me. I can't believe how little I really knew when I had 300hrs and how much experience I needed before being put in the position to fly a transport size aircraft loaded with people under ANY circumstances. I always hear people argue that they pass the checkrides so they are qualified, but you know they already know exactly what is going to happen in those rides, they train specificly for those things, what happens when they are flying a load of people and the CAptain is incapacitated (which true doesn't ever really happen), and things start going seriously wrong? What kind of experience are they going to turn to? NONE cause they don't have any in that sense. I just always think that working your way up, step by step is the way to make a good, experienced, well rounded pilot. It has just never made sense to me to allow a guy to fly a transport size jet, when the biggest thing he has ever flown is a light piston twin, for maybe 10 or 20 hours. THe overall experiece is just not there.
I will never forget, I had an FO one time that was a Mesa grad, first job he gets is flying a Transport size turbo prop with me, the guy could fly ok, I mean his skills were that of an average to maybe a little bit above average pilot, but his problem was when we were real world flying. He couldn't hardly handle flying into a congested airport and dealing with modified procedures such as 200kts to the marker and then shoot the ILS to mins. He had only been taught specific profiles and when those profiles wern't there he was lost, when it didn't work out like back at Mesa under training conditions he couldn't hack it. Not his fault, but he just didn't have any experience and that made my work load twice as hard. I mean if I wasn't there to help him out, I don't think he could have got the thing safley on the ground when we had a high workload and difficult procedures from air traffic. When I would get an FO that had flown checks in a 210, or instructed in multi and singles, or towed banners or flew traffic, they always had a better sense of how to handle problems in REAL life flying.
Just wanted to know what you think, I always respect your views.

SD

 

[FOB]

Get a good CFI!

The secret to any succesful pilot training is initiative and self discipline, regardless of where it is done. That and to absolutely ensure you have a good Instructor. There are great CFIs everywhere, find one of them and you will be all set.

As an ex-Standardization Pilot with FSI, I can tell you we have some real boneheads on the property. Ask around and get assigned to a CFI who is respected and enjoys teaching, not just taking you flying!

As a program, I feel FSI's is first rate. Unfortunately, it is ultimately up to the student to make sure HE or SHE gets the most out of it.

Set high standards for yourself and get a good CFI to help you achieve them. That you can do anywhere.

 

[I.P. Freley]

IMHO, no 300-hr pilot has any place in an airliner.

Unless, somehow, I was an unbelievably incompetent pilot after my ERAU education... I know, sure as shootin', that I wasn't ready for a commercial airplane until I'd logged another 300 or more hours beyond the 230 or so I had at graduation.

Believe me, I've had to play flight instructor with more than one pilot who was sitting next to me with their whopping 750TT, half of which was in 121 flying.

They should never have been there to begin with, no matter what various HR departments at 121 operators seem to think.

No disrespect meant, but for God's sake, get some EXPERIENCE before you sit in a serious airplane.

 

[bobbysamd]

Experience

Originally posted by SDdriver
Hey Bobbysamd,

Do you think though that getting hired at a regional at 300hrs is a good thing? I mean sure it is remarkable to be flying an RJ at 300hrs, but don't you think that this pilot would be denied a lot of really good experience by going that route? I mean do you think a 300hr pilot is really ready for a complex Jet at 300hrs . . .

(emphasis added)

I dunno. I have felt that the MAPD program et al is great because it put people in a 1900 and not jets.

I qualify my next comment by saying that I would have liked nothing better than to captain a 1900. Having said that, isn't a 1900 essentially an overgrown King Air which is an overgrown Baron which is a twin-engined Bonanza? I hope you see my point. The Mesa program was good because it led logically to the 1900. I don't believe a 1900 that hard an airplane to fly compared to other airplanes in its category. and is similar to flying the above-mentioned derivative ancestral recips. An airplane that a 300-hour pilot could fly competently. On the other hand, jets?? A jet could be a lot of airplane for someone with 1000 hours, let alone 300 hours.

Having said that, I recall from my FSI days the Asiana contract program. Asiana is a Korean airline. It sent zero timers to FSI for training, the last part of which, just six months later, was Citation jet training. So much for that argument, though an RJ might be more airplane than a Citation.

It can be argued, legitimately, that 300 hours of the proper training is enough to go to work on the line. My Alitalia guys at FSI would have had about that amount of experience - maybe a little more - before being FOs on the DC-9. But before that they would have received a large amount of enroute experience in the Cheyennes.

I will never forget, I had an FO one time that was a Mesa grad, first job he gets is flying a Transport size turbo prop with me . . . . [H]is problem was when we were real world flying. He couldn't hardly handle flying into a congested airport and dealing with modified procedures such as 200kts to the marker and then shoot the ILS to mins. He had only been taught specific profiles and when those profiles wern't there he was lost, when it didn't work out like back at Mesa under training conditions he couldn't hack it . . . . When I would get an FO that had flown checks in a 210, or instructed in multi and singles, or towed banners or flew traffic, they always had a better sense of how to handle problems in REAL life flying. Just wanted to know what you think, I always respect your views.

I appreciate that, my friend.

Yes, your FO was plenty green at 300 hours and very well would need your help, but not forever. He/she would be sopping up experience on every leg and hopefully would be learning from your excellent example. Pretty soon his/her 300 hours is now 1000 hours, with 700 of that being line experience. Put someone like me next to you and I, too, with 4565 hours, would be green in terms of line flying and perhaps not as good of a sponge. Not for lack of willingness but because of ingrained habits. Experience is the best teacher, but everyone was new at one time. Read Ernest Gann in Fate is the Hunter. If he is to be believed, it sounds like he could barely land a DC-2 during his early days. He learned.

 

[SDdriver]

Thanks for the post Bobby..I agree with you in a lot of ways..I mean in all honesty, that FO did get better and better as time went on, it wasn't so much that he couldn't handle the plane, it was that at 300hrs it was tough on him dealing with flying the line and all that goes along with it. The complexity of the airplane just made it so much harder on him.

I remember early in my career, the first time I got real life experience was when I would ride right seat in a baron and just watch, learning from watching the other guy handle the odd clearences and unusual request by ATC. After seeing a lot of that, I found myself in the left seat with him in the right seat and remembering how he did it, and it seemed easier because the plane was not to complex for my level and I had first hand knowledge of seeing real line flying. Then moving to the king air, and metro, I was lost again in the complexity of the plane, but the real line experience before kinda nulled out the difficulties of handleing the plane.

I do agree that the 1900 is just a big King Air, not to difficult to fly if you have flown king airs. Lots of the same qualities.

I don't know, I just sometimes picture this 300hr guy in the right seat and the CAptain not being able to fly for some reason and this kid having to take this plane and bring it in full of PAXs that are scared to death, and maybe an engine is out, or like one of my experiences having a windscreen penetrated by a duck that missed my head by a few inches, having 3degree below zero wind rushing in your face and having to land the thing cause your FO can't see out of his windscreen cause he had one hit dead center and covered the screen with guts and blood, even though that was an extreme circumstance (which really did happen to me Actually 9 duck strikes at once) it does happen, I am just happy that I was confident in the airplane and had skills that were honed by the help of experienced pilots in planes that I could handle, so when I got to a large complex airplane I was ready for anything. Cause truth be told, Captain or FO, when it comes down to it, you better be able to handle anything, no matter how crazy it is and the only thing that can get you through is good training and experience.
Having lost engines, eletrical, and other less serious things happen in my early days flying singles and light twins, helped me when I was in a large plane and bad things happened. Without those experiences Who knows?

I do see your point though, and I do really appreciate your comments on the subject, Thanks again for posting a reply for me..

SD

 

[stillaboo]

It's a bird, it's a plane, it's SPLAT

I know a 300 hour 'wonder-pilot' who, at 125 TT, lost his windshield to a birdstrike near SLC. He alerted ATC to the condition, and ended the flight un-eventfully, a bit of a bent-up prop and an un-expectedly short flight not withstanding.

Low timers can hit birds too, ya' know!

-Boo!

 

[SDdriver]

That was my exact point. I am sure the fact that him being in an airplane he could handle well with his experience helped save his life, as it did mine and my crew. Imagine if same guy was in a Crj with 50 paxs in the back. Do you think the result would have been the same? Who knows maybe maybe not, but I think the odds would be well against it.
THanks for that story though, you are so right, birds don't discriminate.

SD

 

[Timebuilder]

He wants to go to a respectable, well known place.

I think the responses you got at the top of this thread just might have been due to your use of the word respectable.

I can't think of any in that category, either.

 

[JJG]

By far the best flight school is the United States Military. The training offered by the Air Force, Navy, and Army are top notch. If the military is not something your friend has considered here is my opinion. If you friend has already graduated college, MAPD and Embry Riddle may not be for him. These are degree programs with extra costs associated for credit hours and fees. My suggestion would be to spend the summer at a local FBO earning his Private Pilot. This will get his feet wet so to speak, learn about aviation, checkrides, flight instruction, and his aptitude. I had students at colleges I used to teach at discover after a few lessons that flying is not for them, after committing large amounts of money to an aviation school. I had one student who was actually doing very well, say that after he completed his checkride he never wanted to fly again, and was changing majors. It one thing to see a 757 fly by and say "I want to do that" versus getting knocked around in a Cessna 150 on a 120 degree day.
After interviewing with airlines and being in the flying biz for 15 years airlines care about one thing, multi-engine time. Whatever you have for mulit time they want more, so go somewhere where you will get the most multi time like ALL ATP's or other schools out there. If you are flying in an 172 RG or Piper Arrow for your commercial you are wasting time and money. Save those planes for the CFI rating. I can't beleive guys will go through an entire commercial/instrument syllabus without one hour of multi time. Not to mention the price difference between a 172 RG and a Seminole or Duchess can be as little as $30.00 an hour. In fact you can probably find a school with a Piper Apache that rents for less than a new Cessna 172. Your friend should find a school that puts him in a multi right after he finishes his Private.

 

[DTWFO]

Tell him to look at Delta Connection Academy (AKA Comair Academy) in Sanford Florida. They will pay for you to fly down there on Delta or Comair to look at it. It's expensive, but among the very best training there is to have.


http://www.deltaconnectionacademy.com

 

[JimNtexas]

I have a newphew who was 3/4 of the way through Comair on 9/11. He finished and has his ratings, but has had a pretty hard time getting a flying job.

I thought at the time, and still do, that he'd have been better off to go to All ATPs. He would have paid less and had much more multi-time at the end of it.

 

[SDdriver]

I kinda agree with the above poster, like I said in one of my previous post, Flight schools are great, but when you really boil it down to the basics, we all end up with the same thing, a private, comm, inst, multi, maybe cfi and such.

Unless of course you go to ERAU and alike, then you get a degree, but you can go to a very good state school pay half as much and get a 4yr degree in something you can fall back on if aviation goes bust, like now and in the early 90's. When it comes to the flying, we all wind up with the same ratings, it is just a fact of paying 50,000 for them or 15,000.

I got my ratings over 10yrs ago, so yes it was cheaper back then due to insurance being a lot less, but I think I only paid about 10 or maybe 11,000 doallrs for my private, comm, inst, and multi. Like I said before, I have never been asked, in one of my many flying jobs I have had, where I got my ratings. So it is up to you really on how much you want to spend and how much faith you put into a flight school like Comair, or FSI, giving you an edge over someone that has the exact same ratings as you, but did it at a local FBO. Just food for thought.

SD

 

[Chunk]

Hope he has 15K to spend on a private, eh JediInane?

 

[hydroflyer]

My personal opinion is that getting to a regional at 300 hours or so really doesn't do you a lot of good. This industry is always up and down, everyone knows it. With this downturn, people have been laid off with high seniority numbers. Some have been able to take on other jobs because of previous experience that they had in other airplanes. What would someone who was hired with 300 hours have to fall back on? No CFI experience, no part 135 experience, no multi other then a Duchess/Seminole or a RJ. Frankly, I try to position myself for the future, knowing that layoffs could likely happen, I want to have enough variety of experience to hopefully find another job to keep me going. Just my thought.

 

[SDdriver]

hydroflyer,

That was a VERY VERY good point! I have always said that making it to the regionals in 300hrs was not a good thing because of experience, but the situation you brought up was very real in this industry. If you get an Rj job at 300 and get furloughed at 800hrs you don't even meet 135 mins. Thank you for bringing up that point, maybe some of the new guys will think twice about taking that job at a regional with that in mind..

Sd

 

[Wiggums]

If you get an Rj job at 300 and get furloughed at 800hrs you don't even meet 135 mins.

Um, ok, then go back and get your CFI and get another 400 hours. No doubt if the same person had gone the CFI route instead they'd still only have 800 hours, but it wouldn't have been in a RJ. Overall the RJ job would be better.

 

[desert pilot]

shebles

1 800 249 6482,www.shebleaviation.com,check again most flight magazines if the adress is correct.They fly out of kingman az. and henderson nv. They do a great job in a short time with some of the best prices out there!

 

[SDdriver]

Yeah true, but if they would have just got a cfi gig or banners or traffic, they could build the 1200 first and then get the rj and then if a furlough comes they can get a decent job hauling freight as a captain. See the point? Not trying to be mean, just saying getting the hours before you get there prepares you better for losing the job if that happens.

Sd

 

[stillaboo]

Reality Bites!

What would someone who was hired with 300 hours have to fall back on? No CFI experience, no part 135 experience, no multi other then a Duchess/Seminole or a RJ.

I'll give you a situation. A rich guy owns a Citation. There are 2 pilots who want the job.

One has 1600 hours TT, 300 Multi, all piston. He's an CFII-Multi.

The other has 700 hours TT, 480 multi, 450 turbine. He's a MEL-I.

This situation actually happened. The CFI didn't get the job. Why? The other guy "flies jets for a living, he's an airline pilot. The CFI sits in a 172 and watches people screw up pattern work."

Now, I think both guys could do the job, but, I wasn't hiring. Obviously, both guys fly for a living. However, when the average person looks at a guy who flys a large jet (50 passenger jets are big planes to most people- they just have small seats in them), and then compares him to a guy who flies a 172 . . .

There's a mistique to airlines. Most everyone who learns to fly would love to fly 2 things, a military fighter and an airliner. There are few pilots who would rather fly a 172 than an ERJ. Whether you like it or not, when you fly a 'big shiny jet', you are considered by the world to instantaniously be a better pilot than the guy who flies a 172.

1)Walk into a FBO. Tell them you fly jets for any name brand 121 airline. Leave.
2)Walk into the next FBO down the ramp. Tell them you are a flight instructor. Leave.
3)Walk into a flight school. Tell the instructors you fly for a carrier. Leave.

You will be looked at as a stud in 2 of the above situations, both by pilots and by non-pilots. Guess which ones.

Image is everything.

-Boo!

 

[Whirlwind]

Re: Reality Bites!

I'll give you a situation. A rich guy owns a Citation. There are 2 pilots who want the job.

One has 1600 hours TT, 300 Multi, all piston. He's an CFII-Multi.

The other has 700 hours TT, 480 multi, 450 turbine. He's a MEL-I.

This situation actually happened. The CFI didn't get the job. Why? The other guy "flies jets for a living, he's an airline pilot. The CFI sits in a 172 and watches people screw up pattern work."

You of course hit the nail on the head.

There's a mistique to airlines. Most everyone who learns to fly would love to fly 2 things, a military fighter and an airliner. There are few pilots who would rather fly a 172 than an ERJ.

*raises hand*

Hey, while I'd love to fly a F-16, driving a bus (airliner) holds no appeal to me.

Gimmie a 172 any day of the week, or better yet, gimmie a Pitts Special!!!

At some point, you're just managing systems and not flying. I get a chuckle out of the stories my fixed-wing CFI tells me when she does checkouts for airline pilots. Her boyfriend is a Captain for Southwest and while she won't say it in front of him, he can't fly a 172 worth a damm.

Of course, if you really want to have some fun, try flying helicopters! My 62 year old silver haired mother could fly a 172, but she'll never be able to fly an egg beater.

Whether you like it or not, when you fly a 'big shiny jet', you are considered by the world to instantaniously be a better pilot than the guy who flies a 172.

Only in the eyes of those who don't know any better.

My 2 cents from the cheap seats...

Jason

 

[stillaboo]

I posted this somewhere else too, but I watched a 777 driver stall a 172 about 80 ft above TDZE b/c he flared right where he was supposed to . . . in a 777!

Thanks for mentioning the Pitts! That airplane is a blast! I flew a BD-5 once too. Talk about 'pocket rocket'. It's the go-cart of aviation!

-Boo!

 

[hydroflyer]

Re: Reality Bites!

There's a mistique to airlines. Most everyone who learns to fly would love to fly 2 things, a military fighter and an airliner. There are few pilots who would rather fly a 172 than an ERJ. Whether you like it or not, when you fly a 'big shiny jet', you are considered by the world to instantaniously be a better pilot than the guy who flies a 172.

You are right about the initial mistique of flying military jets and airliners. At one point or another I wanted to fly those, still wouldn't mind it. However as Whirlwind pointed out, there will be a point when you are more of a systems manager than a hands on flyer. Which is "better" is really up to the individual. For someone looking at starting training, hopefully what they may get from a thread like this is that there are so many options out there as far as different types of flying, that a person may decide something other than the big planes would be good for them. Forget the "image." I could care less about what people think of me, even if it is "freight trash" as long as I enjoy what I am doing. Every route will have its benefits and drawbacks and each pilot needs to choose the one that is right for themselves.

As far as the Pitts goes, well I am just waiting to try one, although I have flown its close cousin, the Christian Eagle. Not only are they a blast, but they should be flown in any attitude other than straight and level.

 

[Whirlwind]

"WOW! You actually teach people how to fly? I've always wanted to do that." (once in awhile they become your student)

Ahh, you're so right! I think being a CFI is pretty cool. Shame the pay isn't better, but whatever, none of us who really love flying got into it for the pay anyway, right?

Honestly, I'm looking forward to it, teaching people how to fly helos is going to be fun!!!

"Are you training terrorists?" (If they only knew how student pilots terrorize the skies)

LOL! I think the buildings would do a lot more damage to the helicopters than the other way around!

"Do you teach the BIG airplanes?" (No, the kind we have to falp our arms really fast)

Yep, and if it gets really bad, you might have to get out and push!!!

"You're so brave, I could never do that. I'm afraid of heights." (So am I. But when I have working wings, heights aren't a problem.)

What is it with pilots and a fear of heights.

I too am terrified of heights, but in a helo or stuck-wing, I feel fine.

I recently went skydiving for the first time, just to face my fear. Oh my gosh, stepping out of that Cessna Caravan at 13,500ft took an impressive amount of courage and willpower.

I'm glad I did it, it was an amazing experience!!!

Jason