Beechjet Anti-Skid Off on the Rollout???

[learflyer]

sounds like the type of pilot that wears cowboy boots with his uniform as well. Sorry guys, just an observation!

 

[yosemite]

learflyer said:

sounds like the type of pilot that wears cowboy boots with his uniform as well. Sorry guys, just an observation!

Is this an informed observation or are you just shooting your mouth off?

Tell me the difference in boots worn? Which are wrong or right?

Are you refering to the Justin Roper types offered for sale by Sportys and any good western wear apparel place... Or are you talking about pointy-toed, snake-skinned, boot cut types?

I can tell you this from experience. I've been raised in a part of the country that wears boots regularly. I've worn them for 30+ years (longer than I've been flying) and have worn the Roper style off and on while flying for years.

First, I would unequivically(sp?) state that the stylish/fashion type boots (specialty skins, pointy toes, boot heels instead of walking heels, etc..) ARE NOT proper for aviation use. They are not professional in appearance.

However, the Roper styles are made of quality leather which is practically unexcelled for foot protection, are low-rise and round toed which make them very conservative in appearance, are made of a very soft and supple leather so they are EXTREMELY comfortable to wear for extended periods, hold a shine nicely if tended to like any other quality footwear product, protect your foot well from the elements found on a winter ramp, and of the most interest to Mr. learflyer... have kept my feet warm and toasty many a time when my buddy in the other side of the Lear cockpit was whining up a storm about how cold his feet were.

So just because someone wears boots in the cockpit, don't take it for granted that they are a Texan (I sure ain't!) and they are a cowboy hick (I am, without question, not!)... and please remember that it is better speak with experience than with your foot in your mouth.

 

[firstthird]

I agree, if you got it, use it. The it being anti-skid, I surely can't cycle the brakes 8 times a second or whatever the computer does.

That being said, the poster said that skidding always increases the distance to stop. I'm not sure about the Beech but cars can stop faster without it in one special case, that being a few inches of snow rather than ice. ABS tends to do a little cycling when there is enough snow to make it a little slick but if you were able to lock them up your car tires become like snow plows piling up the snow and increasing the friction as more snow piles up. It isn't very often when this is the case because ice underneath and the type of road you're on probably make a difference. But, because of this phenomena I'm think some car companies have buttons where you can turn the ABS off if desired. Anyway, this is about planes not cars so I'll stop here, and if the Beech has the ABS locked out below 20 knots, then I think the piling up snow theory doesn't work for an aircraft.

 

[Joe Jet Pilot]

Well Can't Speak For Cars

I have flown the Beechjet for several years now. When the anti-skid switch is placed from on to off, there will be a period of 3-5 seconds where you WILL NOT have any brakes at all. Anyone who flies the Beechjet should know this as testing the antiskid is part of the taxi check. Besides what the heck is someone doing looking for the switch during a critical phase of flight anyway. There is only one failure in the beechjet that will result in having no brakes at all, and that is the lose of both transducers.

For someone to decide during the rollout with TR's deployed that oops, I may wind up short, I'll turn off the anti-skid is just plain stupid. There is no way around it!

To abenaki:

Tell your friends to ditch this contract pilot before he kills someone!

 

[CL60]

Test pilot?

This one is easy.

Is this guy a test pilot? If not, then what is he doing performing an unauthorized procedure? Can the aircraft be dispatched without operational anti-skid? Does the manufacturer recommend turning off the A/S for short field landings? Is it an approved procedure? I hate hearing about incompetent pilots who make up their own rules as they stumble along.

This story reminds me of the fool in Redmond, CA. who tried to takeoff in a Corvette with only one operational engine. Ever heard of VMCG/A dummy?

 

[Aspiring to be]

First let me say that I know nothing about the Beech Jet. I am also not trying to defend the action of turning off the anti-skid during rollout.

I am saying that some airplanes do require you to turn off the anti-skid at low speeds. This is for taxi and coming to a smooth complete stop. I know most if not all modern airplanes have dependable automatic systems that us a minimum tire speed for activation. I have seen several times where the auto system failed. But there are some aircraft that do suggest turning off the anti-skid. Most after landing (not securing) checklist call for anti-skid off. Most airplanes, even the heavy ones have anti-skid on one hydraulic system.

I recall one time I landed and the brakes went into max breaking. The aircraft had auto brakes but they were selected off as we were not required to use auto brakes unless we used auto land under Cat 2 or 3 conditions or we just wanted to. The flight engineer selected a different hydraulic system there by releasing the auto brake anti skid system. It felt like we had hit the afterburners when he did that.

I do like when I am on a contaminated ramp to turn the anti-skid off even if the after landing checklist does not call for it. I started doing this due to the fact that several times I have had the antis-skid to release the brakes when they should not have at very low speeds.

I will add that if you have landed and think that you need to turn off the anti-skid to stop on the runway then you have more problems than I can think of. MAX breaking can only be achieved by using the anti-skid system. My way of thinking if you are using the anti-skid to stop you should be in an emergency situation such as a high speed abort. If you need max breaking you have made several mistakes or you must be in an emergency situation. The occasional activation of anti-skid is normal, i.e. landing on a contaminated runway and at low speeds.

Correct procedure in my opinion is that brakes should not be used on a contaminated runway until you are below hydroplane speed and I would recommend for you to be 10-15 knots below hydroplane-speed. Aero-dynamic braking should only be used on a contaminated runway until below hydroplane-speed. My old company whom had several heavy types used 100 knots or below prior to using brakes on a contaminated runway. I believe this to be a very good procedure. If the conditions and field length does not allow this then you need to go elsewhere. In many years of flying I have felt the release of brakes by the anti-skid system only a few times. The anti-skid and max breaking is truly great in a high speed abort.

I use to wear boots!! Think they are great. Just be careful of the heal type as some can get caught below the rudder peddles.

 

[proav]

In my opinion, if not using the anti-skid would help you stop sooner wouldn't all the manufactures save a lot of money and increase safety by simply NOT installing it on their aircraft?
Common sense should tell us that anti-skid is there for a reason.

 

[IronManNDFW]

No Brain'er

In the CE series and HS & BAE that I have flown (and instructed) are all the same, when you purchase the aircraft you turn it on and leave the A/S on. The only time you turn it off is when you sell the airplane.

The new buyer turns the A/S on and leaves it that way until they sell it! You starting to see a reoccurring pattern?

Yes, there are procedures for NO-A/S landings, you usually will only try it once, but if you do, please read the directions & add the additional runway landing length required. Once you see how much it adds to your landing, you will see very quickly how much A/S is needed. Do it in the sim if you want to see what it is like, my guess is you'll blow the tires (you will if I'm running the panel in the sim).

Some aircraft will not allow A/S operations below certain airspeed. It doesn’t mean that you can turn the switch off! In the heat of a take-off at some locations (TEB, HPN) you may forget to turn it on, and if you needed to make a High Speed abort… Well you get the idea.

But do remember this if it can be MEL'ed FOLLOW THE WRITTEN PROCEDURE, lest ye be brought before the judge and explain how is it with you vast aviation knowledge you purposefully created a violation of the FARS by not following written procedures. They usually will try to charge you with wreck less and dangerous, and take certificate action.

 

[Aspiring to be]

"Yes, there are procedures for NO-A/S landings, you usually will only try it once, but if you do, please read the directions & add the additional runway landing length required. Once you see how much it adds to your landing, you will see very quickly how much A/S is needed. Do it in the sim if you want to see what it is like, my guess is you'll blow the tires (you will if I'm running the panel in the sim). "
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Sorry but I do disagree with you. Your running the sim has nothing to do with anything. A landing without A/S is no big deal on a dry runway. In fact if the A/S comes on when landing on a dry runway then something is bad wrong with your procedure. A/S activation on a contaminated runway is understandable on occasions. I believe that if you have to use max effective breaking in other than an emergency situation (abort, overweight landing) you have placed yourself somewhere you should not be. I have made many landings with poor braking action reports without having the antiskid to activate. I have also instructed in the sim before and find your statement about blowing tires to be way off. I have flown large equipment in some very bad weather and very seldom had the A/S to activate. I fully understand that max breaking can only be achieved by using the A/S to stop hydroplaning. As you know there are different types of hydroplaning and hydroplaning can occur on a dry runway.

Several months ago I landed a small jet with only accumulator breaking, of course no A/S available. I have made landings in large aircraft without A/S. I have made and seen many landings in a sim. without A/S. With all of these cases I have never had a tire to blow. What I am trying to say is that it is not a big deal. I have made many and sure you have also made landings and never touched the breaks until a slow taxi speed. Additional runway required, yes, how much, not near as much as your post would indicate. No I would not take say a Hawker into a contaminated runway of 5000 feet without A/S; I would on a dry runway. My why of thinking A/S will prevent hydroplaning and give max breaking effectiveness on a contaminated runway when landing. Will help stop flat spotting a tire on landing. Will give max breaking on an abort with a chance of not blowing the tires. Many high speed aborts will result in tires blown due to the heat build up and the fuse plugs blowing.

"Some aircraft will not allow A/S operations below certain airspeed. It doesn’t mean that you can turn the switch off! In the heat of a take-off at some locations (TEB, HPN) you may forget to turn it on, and if you needed to make a High Speed abort… Well you get the idea."
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Many of the larger A/C will call for the A/S to be selected off on the after landing checklist. If you have complied with all checklists i.e.: before takeoff the A/S will be placed in the on position. Not being smart but your same logic would say to leave the gear down at all times so in the heat of landing you will not forget to extend the gear. I realize that on the newer equipment you do not have to turn the A/S switch off. I believe that prior to every engine start you must assure that all switches are set to the correct position. Have you ever left your flaps up when you taxi out on a contaminated taxi way. Good procedure would call for you to put the flaps down after the taxi out. Just getting in the seat I have moved switches, had owners/passengers to hit a switch. I have also made PA announcement over the ATC system. This was easy to do when you are use to a DC-9 and B-727 with their separate PA mike and then get into say a 757 with one mike. I like to turn off the A/S at slow taxi speeds on a contaminated ramp. I have seen to many A/S and other automatic systems fail.

 

[Diesel]

Aspiriring I can't tell what you were saying. I'm not sure if you were quoting something or what you were saying.

A/S in a citation puts a annuciator light on the panel. Anything below 15-12kts turns the a/s off. Why would you turn the a/s off? The ntsb would love the fact that you turned the a/s off right before you slid off the runway.

If the system fails it fails. At least the switch will be in a position it was supposed to be in. Check the numbers for a landing anti skid off. It's a long number.

We aren't talking 75''s and that sort. We are talking beechjet's and that size.