Bashing The Legacies

[CaptainMark]

its amazing to me reading some of these threads that a lot of the LCC pilots bash the legacies...back when your airlines were not around the legacies set the bar for all of us..pay..workrules..retirements..etc...the contracts they fought for and got benefitted us all..now they are on hard times and the rest of us have to set the bar again...we are trying at fedex...i will not bash the legacy pilots and i hope nothing but the best for them...grow up

 

[75M]

Well said. Too many LCC pilots think they did something smart and that Legacy pilots are slow moving, slow thinking, greedy dinosaurs. The main problem with the Legacies is simply that they've gotten old, resulting in higher costs. It's as simple as that.

 

[PurpleTail]

its amazing to me reading some of these threads that a lot of the LCC pilots bash the legacies...back when your little airlines were not around the legacies set the bar for all of us..pay..workrules..retirements..etc...the contracts they fought for and got benefitted us all..now they are on hard times and the rest of us have to set the bar again...we are trying at fedex...i will not bash the legacy pilots and i hope nothing but the best for them...grow up

{yawn} Welcome to FlightInfo.

 

[CaptainMark]

{yawn} Welcome to FlightInfo.

You are so right..what the hell was i thinking!

 

[SUNDOWN]

its amazing to me reading some of these threads that a lot of the LCC pilots bash the legacies...back when your little airlines were not around the legacies set the bar for all of us..pay..workrules..retirements..etc...the contracts they fought for and got benefitted us all..now they are on hard times and the rest of us have to set the bar again...we are trying at fedex...i will not bash the legacy pilots and i hope nothing but the best for them...grow up

Step away from the pedestal.....A good percentage of LCC are former legacy pilots. As much as it makes me sick, aren't these stupid fights often intiated by a legacy guy still at his airline. I doubt anybody that posts regularly on this board has contributed much to this industry. Mark, your post ( whether you know it or not) is flame bait. Too many labels.....we are all pilots wanting a good standard of living and means to provide. Good luck at FDX.

 

[vetrider]

its amazing to me reading some of these threads that a lot of the LCC pilots bash the legacies...back when your little airlines were not around the legacies set the bar for all of us..pay..workrules..retirements..etc...the contracts they fought for and got benefitted us all..now they are on hard times and the rest of us have to set the bar again...we are trying at fedex...i will not bash the legacy pilots and i hope nothing but the best for them...grow up

I think the guys at those "little" airlines you are referring to are just none too delicately throwing it back the other way now that times have changed a little bit. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Ty Webb]

For every LCC guy bashing a Legacy, there is a Legacy guy blaming an LCC guy for his company's problems.

Fact is, once we pilots realize that it is really pilots versus greedy management cork smokers, we'll all be better off.

 

[F9 Driver]

For every LCC guy bashing a Legacy, there is a Legacy guy blaming an LCC guy for his company's problems.

Fact is, once we pilots realize that it is really pilots versus greedy management cork smokers, we'll all be better off.

I'd like to nominate this as Ty's best post EVER!!

Thanks Ty

 

[blzr]

unfortunately, we will never beat management because there will always be someone out there that'll do it for less. If management figures out how to get the right people elected that would propose a bill to allow migrant workers to fly airliners for no benefits and fee/departure, we will all be screwed.

Doh, I take that back, Mesa already does that.

 

[bearcat]

unfortunately, we will never beat management because there will always be someone out there that'll do it for less. If management figures out how to get the right people elected that would propose a bill to allow migrant workers to fly airliners for no benefits and fee/departure, we will all be screwed.

Doh, I take that back, Mesa already does that.

Hmmm....interesting post. I am willing to bet that the days of the super cheap ticket are soon to be a thing of the past. Every LCC models their costs after SWA. SWA fuel costs are to increase 600 mil for 2006. Now that majors have become much more efficient than they were, pricres are going to be driven up in the future. If someone had to buy a ticket on United or SWA, most people are going to choose (United may be a bad ex) the non-stop, assigned seat option. The fact is we are all paying more for fuel everywhere except for airline tickets. Even Fed ex have implemented a fuel surcharge. Once the SWA fuel hedging comes to an end, so will the $100/ roundtrip from PHX - SAN. or whatever. Ultimately the fuel costs are going lie on the comsumers back. Actually at SWA they already do.

Now to your mesa comment...
DIE MESA DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE

 

[CaptainMark]

unfortunately, we will never beat management because there will always be someone out there that'll do it for less.

exactly..but that is why we have to support the legacies...its one thing to be joking around but there is some true hatred here..whatever..what the hell do i know..just a boxhauler...and this is flamebait! ...all i can say is the purple boys will try to raise the bar for all!!!....oops..backed away from the pedestal and fell off the stage...

 

[WhiteCloud]

I think the guys at those "little" airlines you are referring to are just none too delicately throwing it back the other way now that times have changed a little bit. Nothing more, nothing less.

There you go! Right on the money!

 

[kevdog]

Once the SWA fuel hedging comes to an end, so will the $100/ roundtrip from PHX - SAN. or whatever.

So are you saying these tickets are going to be $115 instead of $100 in the near future?

 

[SWA/FO]

Fed Ex is awesome!!

 

[CaptainMark]

no no...swa is more awesomer!!!

 

[OffHot]

CaptianMark I understand your concern for the industry, and more importantly the jobs, but this is a business. Over capacity and the inability to let the weak die, has had as much to do with the downfall as anything. Additionally, the major unions, SWA included, lack leverage at the bargining table because larger equipment is being flown by newer pilots who demand less in wages so that they may one day fly larger equipment and make more money. Of course the inverse is true, they continue to get low wages and at the same time are allowed to fly larger equipment eliminating most of the growth at the mainline carrier. So my question to you is what and who should be support? The airline industry is being reinvented, what evolves is anyones guess.

 

[Lawman]

When my "little airline" was told by a legacy that they smelled "blood in the water" and were gonna sink us, I realized that my job was being attacked by greed from all sides. Pilots included. Yeah, that's right. There were no Legacy pilots demanding from their company to stop the war. That's just buisness. Well, the tide has turned. My company is not Chapter 11. We pay our bills and don't count on the government to bail us out. What United has done is a farce. So to hell with the "legacy carriers." Let em all die for all I care.

 

[CaptainMark]

well i guess future pax pilots can expect lower wages..no retirements...crappy workrules..etc..like i said..just a boxhauler making conversation...i hope you and your "little" airlines succeed...best of luck

p.s...."little" was not meant to be derogatory...but most lccs are smaller than the legacies...

 

[Lawman]

well i guess future pax pilots can expect lower wages..no retirements...crappy workrules..etc..like i said..just a boxhauler making conversation...i hope you and your "little" airlines succeed...best of luck

p.s...."little" was not meant to be derogatory...but most lccs are smaller than the legacies...

It is derogatory. We don't owe these airlines anything. They are a business just like Sears and Wal-Mart. Why should they have special treatment? If they can't compete by lowering their prices, that's their problem, not mine.

 

[CaptainMark]

take it as you wish...the legacies set the standard...you are not getting paid what you are worth..if you are happy making subpar wages with no retirements..good on ya..not me! i only hope the legacies get their house in order and get their contracts back to what they were...it can only be better for all of us...and it is your problem..once your little airline starts to lose $ they will come to u and demand a cut in pay..then you will be making what i pay my lawnboy!!!

 

[USNFDX]

It is derogatory. We don't owe these airlines anything. They are a business just like Sears and Wal-Mart. Why should they have special treatment? If they can't compete by lowering their prices, that's their problem, not mine.

You see it actually is your problem, and my problem and everybody elses' problem who is trying to make a living flying airplanes. There will always be somebody out there willing to do your job, and my job for less. And when they do it for less , eventualy you will be doing it for less. When UAL, DAL, NWA emerge from bankruptcy lean, having stripped their employees pay and benefits below yours, they will have upper hand in this extremely completive environment. Why, because they still have extremely profitable International routes. LCCs will be under extreme pressure, and your management will come after your pay and benefits. It may start out as something small like productivity enhancements(sound familiar), or increasing your health care premiums, but when that doesn't cut it they will come after your pay.
We truly are all in this together, and to think otherwise is naive

 

[737 Pylt]

For every LCC guy bashing a Legacy, there is a Legacy guy blaming an LCC guy for his company's problems.

Fact is, once we pilots realize that it is really pilots versus greedy management cork smokers, we'll all be better off.

Ty:
You nailed it! If management's pay was related to their performance, I think you might see a LOT of changes in the way business is done...Especially in the form of "paper write-off's."
737

 

[PHXFLYR]

I'd like to nominate this as Ty's best post EVER!!

Thanks Ty

I'll second that nomination!!:beer:


PHXFLYR

 

[Ex737Driver]

If they can't compete by lowering their prices, that's their problem, not mine.

and when the next "little company" comes in 2-4 years after you have been around and offers a "cheaper" product that forces your company to cut costs, I'm quite sure you'll be on the bitching box about how unfair it is. If you say you disagree, I'm quite sure your attitude will change after your first round of pay cuts. and if you say it doesn't bother you, your lying.

 

[AlbieF15]

I think a lot of the "anti legacy" thoughts come from a consumer perspective. Ever flown on Airtran or Jetblue? You get treated like a rock star. I'm a FF at NWA, and they also go out of their way to make me feel great. However--at some "other" legacies, especially late 90s--the big guys seem to have forgotten customer service. I think the reason some of the other folks exploded wasn't cheap fares, it was a better product.

But yes...our bros at the other legacies raised the bar for EVERYONE. Now its our turn, and I am ready to do what it takes to do our best to pass it on.

 

[The_Russian]

Well said Ty. I love you. Make love to me.

 

[SWA/FO]

well i guess future pax pilots can expect lower wages..no retirements...crappy workrules..etc..like i said..just a boxhauler making conversation...i hope you and your "little" airlines succeed...best of luck

p.s...."little" was not meant to be derogatory...but most lccs are smaller than the legacies...

Please go to the CARGO board where you guys (brokeback USNFDX included) can go and talk about your awesome jobs at Fed Ex. A lot of these "little" airlines have some very good retirements plans in place, Ie. 401k, profit sharing & stock options...so to say No retirement is not 100% correct. Crappy work rules? I don't think thats the case here at SWA, try flying Night "on-Demand" (ie. pager 24/7) freight...now that sucks (I've done it)

well i guess future pax pilots can expect lower wages

Not here at SWA... Why don't you visit airlinepilotpay.com and look for yourself, although I don't think its 100% right with its TPF (trips for pay conversion to hourly). If you look at airlinepilotpay under CARGO you will see Fed Ex lags behind ABX in pay. Have a nice day.

 

[Spectre]

...and what happens when a LCC cargo business enters your market? In time, like any industry, this WILL happen. It's called competition in a free and open market. Then UPS and FedEx pilots will edure the radical changes that have taken place on our side of the fence. In order to compete, you'll have to give up work rules, pay, and retirement. So enjoy it for the time being. You may want to consider getting rid of that second summer home, your BMW, camper, etc. and put some money aside for retirement.

 

[WhiteCloud]

...and what happens when a LCC cargo business enters your market? In time, like any industry, this WILL happen. It's called competition in a free and open market. Then UPS and FedEx pilots will edure the radical changes that have taken place on our side of the fence. In order to compete, you'll have to give up work rules, pay, and retirement. So enjoy it for the time being. You may want to consider getting rid of that second summer home, your BMW, camper, etc. and put some money aside for retirement.

Make the money while you can. UPS and FedEx will be under the gun in the future. It's already started with some outsourcing to "little" airlines that fly Caravans. What's next? International flying by foreign crews to the US? Don't give up the camper though.....might need a place to stay when things get tough. It's coming just a matter of time.

 

[AA717driver]

The legacy bashing comes from years of hearing from the "haves" who didn't give a rats a$$ if anyone else went out of business just as long as they kept what they had.

I've beat this drum to death--no one cares what happens to UAL, Delta and AA because they didn't care what happened to anyone else. They are reaping what they have sown.

As for LCC workrules--If you haven't lived with a system like that, don't criticize. I loved it (TWA had PBS and incredible flexibility) and it was 10 times better QOL than at AA. You can't pay enough to make up for an inflexible schedule with trips that you can't commute on both ends...

AND, finally, you're criticizing people for taking "low paying" jobs at LCC's. I hate to tell you but a whole lot of the very most senior pilots at the legacies took those jobs with a B scale in place. In the case of AA, it was a draconian B scale that had a 10+ year merge with the A scale. Now, who's a scumbag?TC