Bashing The Legacies

[1BigRodeo]

You know Captain Mark, I think you have started a beautiful example of a thread that asks a question, then indirectly answers itself. The issue of bashing other carriers, their pilots, their equipment, their payscales will continue till the end of time. The fact is, as long as there are guys with little wee wees, big watches, and Napoleons complex, they will always feel the need to knock someone down to feel better about their lot.

I remember at my last job having a Delta crew make alot of comments about not riding in the van with my lowly crew. They wanted to exercise their "contract" and leave us on the curb. Unfortunately for them we had been there first and werent budging from squatters rights, not to mention at their age, a fight would have been bad for them. Unless the three old ladys they were flying with hit us with their purses. Was it because they were DAL pilots? Maybe, but my college roomate is a pilot there and doesnt act that way, so I wrote them off as A-holes individually.

A USAIR captain made a comment about the airline I am employed with now after we invited them to join my crew in celebrating my impending change of employment. It was derogatory and in poor taste considering the history of his airline in relation to the topic. His FO wanted to die. Does that make USAir pilots a bunch of DH's. Not quite.

I have flown with guys at my current airline that are every bit as big of an a$$ as those two boneheads, and wouldnt say its indicitive of the culture, nor our feelings about other airlines. Maturity might have something to do with it, but the last time I defaulted to a pilot for anything relating to an admirable personality, well.....still looking. The uniform color, or equipment claimed never seems to change that.

Funny thing is that guys never do seem to realize they are playing tetherball with a claymore mine. Even funnier is that they dont realize that other pilots dont have the plunger trigger, management does. So the infighting and fingerpointing goes on as it does in here, and the management boobs just take notes on how to divide and conquer. Hope the mine isnt in front of me when it goes off........


Have to go, me and a few of the local major airline pilots in my neighborhood are going to barbeque a young embry-riddle grad charter FO for lunch. This whole eating your young concept hasnt really caught on with me, so I slip a few Elk steaks onto the grill when noone is looking....tastes just like chicken.

Sarcasm off...
Flame away!

 

[CaptainMark]

What's funny about this thread it that the SWA guys are so defensive...SWA has increased their payscales and retirement package..GREAT!! i think the senior captains have to be the highest paid in the industry to fly the 73..but every swa pilot 10 years ago would have chosen UNITED or DELTA over swa..and don't lie...SWA was a distant second or 3rd choice..and if you say it wasn't you are lying...but whatever.....and SWAFO..abx has a 64 hr guarantee with that payrate we are on average 14 hrs more a month..and that is credit hr..not block..like last year i blocked 180hrs and got paid for 1000 or so...those are work rules..but you guys would not know about that..now go fly 10 legs!!!

oh yeah..met 3 swa dudes interviewing the other day...that says enough! off to the cargo board!

 

[ivauir]

What's funny about this thread it that the SWA guys are so defensive...SWA has increased their payscales and retirement package..GREAT!! i think the senior captains have to be the highest paid in the industry to fly the 73..but every swa pilot 10 years ago would have chosen UNITED or DELTA over swa..and don't lie...SWA was a distant second or 3rd choice..and if you say it wasn't you are lying...but whatever.....and SWAFO..abx has a 64 hr guarantee with that payrate we are on average 14 hrs more a month..and that is credit hr..not block..like last year i blocked 180hrs and got paid for 1000 or so...those are work rules..but you guys would not know about that..now go fly 10 legs!!!

oh yeah..met 3 swa dudes interviewing the other day...that says enough! off to the cargo board!

Capt Mark,
This inaccurate and derogetory post is a great example of why SWA guys get defensive.

 

[CaptainMark]

yeah right!!! whatever....

 

[CaptainMark]

Originally Posted by frqtflyer
Industry Watch: Comair votes yes to management proposal
Comair pilots on Jan. 20 voted to accept a proposal, including the following provisions:
• Reduce pay rates between 9 and 21 percent
• Reduce per diem to $1.50
• Reduce deadhead credit to 75%
• Reduce vacation accrual and pay
• Reduce days off
• Eliminate company contributions to the pilot retirement plan beyond 2006 and implement a profit sharing plan in 2007
• Implement a new preferential bidding system
• 4 year duration

Comair pilots’ acceptance of their contract revisions supports the fact that the industry is driving regional carriers to adjust the way they do business.

Mutual dependency isnt just in ticket pricing but our wages and work rules apparently.



Just what everyone has been saying, they are willing to pay us nothing to fly airplanes. Maybe we should all work for free; would that work out better for management? I guess it will get worse before it ever gets better.



someone replied:

The industry was headed this way when commuter pilots (I was one) agreed to fly 50 seat jets for peanuts. When the majors saw that commuters had a hard on for jets they dreamed of 70 and 100 seat jets flying around the country on 1000+ mile legs while paying the Captain only 60 or 70 bucks an hour and the FO 30 bucks an hour. They're getting their wish. The commuters took flying and jobs away from mainline with RJs and now that they have stripped most of the contracts at the majors they're now after the commuters. They won't stop until we all decide that we want fly a certain plane in a certain seat for under a certain dollar amount (not just hourly pay but total compensation package). This whole debacle has been brought on by ourselves. Many of you are concerned about outsourcing now. What do you think they were doing when they took the jets from mainline and gave smaller jet flying to the commuters? That was outsourcing.


THIS IS FROM ANOTHER THREAD..IT'S ALL OVER!!!

 

[Flopgut]

Hmmm.

LCC (SWA more so) can't seem to imagine they can enjoy their success without dragging down the legacies. Maybe they feel some lingering resentment from years ago, or something. I don't know for sure, they have issues. I think their continued overstating of how great they are is terribly misplaced given the nature of events that were the tipping point for legacy airline decline. SWA is not nearly as good a company as what happened to legacy airlines is unimagineatively horrible. What have they innovated? Nothing! They are a well managed discounter and that is it. What are their new cities? PHL, PIT, and DEN. Are those bold business endeavors or are they just following the sirens? Where is the lofty achievement in that? There isn't any. Now, I think it is great that they make good money. I hope all SWA employees continue to, and have comfortable, worry free retirements. But lets get the story straight.

The industry got deregulated. Some quirky lawyer in a right-to-work state decides people need low fares (I have no idea why really, especially today. Everything is more expensive for all of us. Why didn't he start a university or a network of low cost dentists?). I mean really, who needs a $100 plane ticket? Maybe if Branniff had been afforded the same standard of a free market that every other business enjoys they could have smited SWA at Love right when they started. No, a court order precluded market forces in that instance. I have to believe that if the free market had prevailed at Love (deregulation notwithstanding) the world's largest, most profitable, globe trotting passenger airlines might still be in this country. That is certainly the case for cargo.

Not only was the business deregulated, no national air transportation policy was instituted. That is still affecting the industry today. US legacy airlines are faced with an international open skies policy that is not getting us into Heathrow and is specifically not allowing any domestic competition equivilent to international (this further insulates SWA from the same level of a free market that legacies are dealt). I tell you what, with the way things are going, I'm not sure I would mind letting Ryanair loose in the US. They want to sell plane tickets for free! I might like to see what SWA thinks of that degree of a free market?

 

[Flopgut]

I'll be standing by for the attack by Ivauir and SWA/FO (who I'm sure will be strained to maintain his nuevo-more-relaxed persona). But I really don't want to make you think that personally I wish you ill will. You work for SWA and I have no fondness for the company but try to separate the two.

I don't know why people need low fares anymore. I think enough is enough. Everything is more expensive and people have learned to except it (including us). For crying out loud, this industry is a complete embarrasment to the economy and (the serious investors on) Wall Street. Even SWA! They know your fundamentals are changing and your resisting fare increases, heck your going to pay a dividend! Why? Treat your fuel hedges like the oil companies treat their product--raise prices, sock away the profits like you would on a non renewable resource. Your pilot group should shrug off the Stockholm syndrome-esque, dazed adoration of your management and insist on some changes in the way things are done. Instead of the pushing the sell-out concept of being allowed to work longer, why don't you negotiate for the money and leave on time? Why does that thought not even occur to you?

 

[OffHot]

Flopgut, I dont know where to start, but economics wasn't your major. SWA isn't an industry problem, unless you can't compete. I honestly don't know why you hate SWA, some of its repersentation on this board I can understand, but the company? I personally would never say we are great, smart and lucky maybe. Answer me this, who do you work for? Apparently since you can offer our pilot group information on how to improve our contract then yours must be much better. Slamming another airline because yours isn't doing well or your contract is subpar or your flight attendants are not very attractive is kinda weak.

 

[wndshr]

..like last year i blocked 180hrs and got paid for 1000 or so...those are work rules..but you guys would not know about that..now go fly 10 legs!!!

quote]

ummm...you flying 180 hours is not something to brag about...considering your cargo planes flying over densely populated areas while i am asleep, and my family is asleep. 180 hours is something i would keep under my hat considering the vast amount of safety issues at your airline! no offense...i am glad you are not flying people...but still, you fly over people's houses...

just an opinion to keep in mind!

 

[CaptainMark]

ummm...you flying 180 hours is not something to brag about...considering your cargo planes flying over densely populated areas while i am asleep, and my family is asleep. 180 hours is something i would keep under my hat considering the vast amount of safety issues at your airline! no offense...i am glad you are not flying people...but still, you fly over people's houses...

just an opinion to keep in mind!

typical response from an lcc pilot...missed the point..flew less ..paid more..get it!!! oh what's the use..the industry is in a downward spiral..good luck to all the young pilots out there...you will work your ass off for peanuts!!!

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut, I dont know where to start, but economics wasn't your major. SWA isn't an industry problem, unless you can't compete. I honestly don't know why you hate SWA, some of its repersentation on this board I can understand, but the company? I personally would never say we are great, smart and lucky maybe. Answer me this, who do you work for? Apparently since you can offer our pilot group information on how to improve our contract then yours must be much better. Slamming another airline because yours isn't doing well or your contract is subpar or your flight attendants are not very attractive is kinda weak.

Huh? Ok, I work for CAL. I think if you read this board and payed attention you would know that I don't overstate anything about my own airline. When asked in a particuliar thread about "SWA or CAL" I suggested the person go to SWA. We have a lot of problems. Problems that you do not have almost singuliarly by luck.

My gripe is not about contracts or the "me vs. you" stuff. My gripe pertains to how we got here and where we are going. This country cast off nearly the entire passenger flying business for the want of airline tickets cheaper that dirt. Events surrounding the WA took out an airline that flew the whole world with all manner of transport category planes (including Concorde) and replaced it with an airline that goes almost nowhere. What is the plan here?

Business wise your fuel hedges are genius. However, short of being able to pass along the full costs to customers anything is eventually failed. And you are not doing that.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

SWA will see a paycut, they have the highest paid pilots in the industry. SWA really has nothing to offer its passengers in a level playing field.

 

[Flopgut]

ummm...you flying 180 hours is not something to brag about...considering your cargo planes flying over densely populated areas while i am asleep, and my family is asleep. 180 hours is something i would keep under my hat considering the vast amount of safety issues at your airline! no offense...i am glad you are not flying people...but still, you fly over people's houses...

just an opinion to keep in mind![/quote]

I like to be extremely delicate with safety stuff, but you brought it up.

If you compare the enormous scope and complexity of FEDEX operations to the proportionally inverse, incredibly basic SWA operation, FEDEX is safer by a factor of 10. Or more.

 

[Falconjet]

Taking the bait

I would recommend that folks ignore some of the comments from Capt Mark just as I try to ignore most of SWA/FO's posts. To keep replying is to continue the downward trend of these boards.

That being said, I will refuse my own advice for a moment and say this about the quote from wndshr below:

quote]

ummm...you flying 180 hours is not something to brag about...considering your cargo planes flying over densely populated areas while i am asleep, and my family is asleep. 180 hours is something i would keep under my hat considering the vast amount of safety issues at your airline! no offense...i am glad you are not flying people...but still, you fly over people's houses...

just an opinion to keep in mind![/quote]

wndshr: That is probably the dumbest thing you have put out on this board, and you have put out some serious shat. I guess you are so senior at jB that you don't fly any redeyes. Good for you.

I guess you are trying to warn us about maintaining our proficiency while we fly over your family at night. Fine, thanks for the warning.

I guess we shouldn't worry about you guys flying over our families while you are half in the bag doing double transcons beyond the sensible duty limits established by years of experience just so you guys can make a little more money for jB and have one more day off a month.

Throwing stones about another company's "safety issues" is in pretty poor taste, not to mention frought with egg should your esteemed company ever (God forbid) bend a little metal.


FJ

 

[Geronimo4497]

I'm sure the 'I'll take the first job that is offered to me' mentality has nothing to due with the current situation at the majors. It's all just a crapshoot on a 10-15 year timeline. Let us revisit this thread in another 7 or 8 years when the legacies are hiring again like gangbusters. 'I don't want to work for a LCC, they suck......................'

Give it a rest, this is the airline industry.

 

[CaptainMark]

its amazing to me reading some of these threads that a lot of the LCC pilots bash the legacies...back when your airlines were not around the legacies set the bar for all of us..pay..workrules..retirements..etc...the contracts they fought for and got benefitted us all..now they are on hard times and the rest of us have to set the bar again...we are trying at fedex...i will not bash the legacy pilots and i hope nothing but the best for them...grow up

how this got into this mess is beyond me...THIS IS THE ORIGINAL POST!!!! UAL,DAL,NWA,AA,etc..continued success on your way back..we will try to keep the business of operating aircraft a rewarding one..and to be HIGHLY compensated for the job we do in our upcoming contract..bye

 

[scoreboard]

Flop, not an attack, but here goes nothing:

LCC (SWA more so) can't seem to imagine they can enjoy their success without dragging down the legacies. Those that do are in the minority to be sure.Maybe they feel some lingering resentment from years ago, or something. I thinks it's more a pride at what we have done, I don't see the resentment toward others on the line, well, only if your taxxing slowly in front of us.... I don't know for sure, they have issues. I think their continued overstating of how great they are is terribly misplaced given the nature of events that were the tipping point for legacy airline decline. Your judging 5000 pilots based on a select few. SWA is not nearly as good a company as what happened to legacy airlines is unimagineatively horrible. I have no idea what your saying here. What have they innovated? What did FEDEX or UPS or Delta innovate? Your basing success on innovation? How about not going bankrupt? How about not stiffing the taxpayer with failed defined benefit plans? Thats innovation to you? They are a well managed discounter and that is it. That happens to consistantly win customer satisfaction ratings, thats it. What are their new cities? PHL, PIT, and DEN. Are those bold business endeavors or are they just following the sirens? So we should go to cities to loose money? absurd and you know it. Where is the lofty achievement in that? There isn't any. Except provide for 33 plus years of profitability. Now, I think it is great that they make good money. I hope all SWA employees continue to, and have comfortable, worry free retirements. But lets get the story straight. Yes lets, lets not slant it...

The industry got deregulated. Some quirky lawyer in a right-to-work state decides people need low fares (I have no idea why really, especially today. Everything is more expensive for all of us. There you go name calling again, slanting the argument. Why didn't he start a university or a network of low cost dentists?). I mean really, who needs a $100 plane ticket? Everyone who wants to fly, it's called a free market, not communism... Maybe if Branniff had been afforded the same standard of a free market that every other business enjoys they could have smited SWA at Love right when they started. So you used to work for Branniff, i'm sorry. Braniff operated under the exact same rules SWA did, and in fact tried unsuccesfully in court to kill SWA, not the other way around, again, slant. I fly every few weeks with old Branniff guys and without exception, they site Branniffs failure to adapt, not SWA killing them, if you feel that way, sorry. No, a court order precluded market forces in that instance. Yes, a court order, and that would make it, let me think: LEGAL. I have to believe that if the free market had prevailed at Love (deregulation notwithstanding) it did the world's largest, most profitable, globe trotting passenger airlines might still be in this country. And Branniff could not stay afloat because they could not adapt, they failed, it's called business. It's not war, it's business plain and simple. That is certainly the case for cargo. I chuckle when I look out my window each and every day and see UPS and FEDEX same day delivery packages sliding up the ramp, innovation? What about the day you see a SWA CARGO taxxing for takeoff out of Ontario, will that be enough innovation? What about the 777 painted Barney Blue? It's coming,oh it's coming.

Not only was the business deregulated, no national air transportation policy was instituted. That is still affecting the industry today. US legacy airlines are faced with an international open skies policy that is not getting us into Heathrow and is specifically not allowing any domestic competition equivilent to international (this further insulates SWA from the same level of a free market that legacies are dealt). I have no idea what your saying here, your saying there is no domestic competition? I agree with international rules, they need work. I tell you what, with the way things are going, I'm not sure I would mind letting Ryanair loose in the US. Bring em on, where do you think they get there model? They want to sell plane tickets for free! I might like to see what SWA thinks of that degree of a free market?

I really think somebody rubbed you the wrong way, sorry if that was a SWA dude, but really, this is business, stop making it personal, I'll buy the next round, eh?

 

[scoreboard]

OK Flop, not an attack but come on, hear goes:

I'll be standing by for the attack by Ivauir and SWA/FO (who I'm sure will be strained to maintain his nuevo-more-relaxed persona). But I really don't want to make you think that personally I wish you ill will. You work for SWA and I have no fondness for the company but try to separate the two.

I don't know why people need low fares anymore. Your joking? You have never bought anything at Walmart, Kmart, Home Depo, Target? Your telling me when you go car shopping or any kind of shopping you go to the store which charges more? I doubt it. You are confusing low fares with companies being able to charge low fares AND make a profit. We do that, others have not, maybe they can in the future, good for them. I think enough is enough. Everything is more expensive and people have learned to except it (including us). For crying out loud, this industry is a complete embarrasment to the economy and (the serious investors on) Wall Street. Because companies have failed to adapt, not because SWA has a proffitable business model. Even SWA! They know your fundamentals are changing and your resisting fare increases, Wrong, fares have been inching up. our guys are good enough at letting that happenning under the radar, check it out. heck your going to pay a dividend! Why? Treat your fuel hedges like the oil companies treat their product--raise prices, sock away the profits like you would on a non renewable resource. You guys are stuck up on fuel hedges, if we didn't have them, we would charge more, simple. Because we have them, we can charge LESS, so to be NICE your saying we should charge more, loose market share, and let our competition reap the profits of our hedging? I don't think your company would do that, now would they? Your pilot group should shrug off the Stockholm syndrome-esque, .dazed adoration of your management I wouldn't call it that...at best a respect for their ability to keep us afloat, where, and this is not a slam, others have failed and insist on some changes in the way things are done. What changes should we insist on from management oh great one? A defined benefit plan? More pay for fewer hours? I don't think so, be real. The days of Cargo guys working the reported 200 hours and getting paid for over a 1000 are over. You need to adapt Instead of the pushing the sell-out concept of being allowed to work longer, why don't you negotiate for the money and leave on time? Not sure what you are saying here, i don't think it is a sellout to test something, even though I dont like it, in my opinion it will go away. Simple Why does that thought not even occur to you? Uh, so your saying we should fight with the company to get paid for not working, that makes sense, and then Ryan Air will be here to steal it all.

You have one serious chip on the shoulder for those who are willing to work for their pay, don't you?

 

[OffHot]

Flopgut, let me start this off with I was never a Branif pilot or even an airline pilot when Braniff was in business, but I have read many articles on Braniff and the majority of them point to growing to quickly after deregulation, spending way to much money on everything, and unexpected high fuel costs as Braniff's failure. Not much is even written about the WA or SWA as a cause of Braniffs failure. Thats like saying SWA is why United, Delta, Northwest etc filed bankruptcy. Granted the enviornment has changed and that has put pressure on the legacy airlines, along with higher fuel prices. Any airline SWA, CAL, AA adjust to that enviornment, some succesful and some not so. I will agree with you that we need to reverse a trend of "its the pilots fault" for the financial troubles of the industry, and yes that starts with the pilots. I assure you that most SWA pilots don't want regression in pay and benifits nor do we enjoy seeing it happen to anyone else. We have chosen (not always by choice) just to take a little bit at a time rather that in huge chunks like most legacy's. We are all best served by a healthy enviornment where fares can be increased to cover costs, but right now it appears to be all about market share with the hope that little by little prices can rise at a pace greater than costs. Even SWA knows that as he have also increased ticket prices, but like so many people out there have said, if given a choice between any other airline and SWA I would rather fly the other airline, so why do we carry more people in the US then any other airline, mostly price but also frequency. And with our price we still make a profit. Regardless of how it is done, but it hasn't been done by hitting my wallet, maybe my butt because of increase productivity, but not because of give backs. So I support yours and CaptMark's position, but SWA isn't why we are where we are.

 

[Flopgut]

Score:

You have to be able to see how FEDEX and UPS have been the standard for innovation. They have forever changed the global supply chain. They are at the height of human interaction with both hardware and software. I really like to see the debates of late between FEDEX and SWA. SWA types have had a great time bashing the legacies and it is nice to see the result when you start to measure your company against theirs.

Most importantly, when I speak of your (SWA) luck, I'm talking specifically about what brought us to this point. Terror and war are not examples of things you simply adapt to in any business easily. For instance, given the contibutions that UAL made to this country and economy for 60+ years there is no context for not granting them some sort of government loan guarantee. That was awful. What grates on me is the ease at which a SWA pilot employee can sieze upon anything of that nature and declare it was free and normal market forces. I know they have been great for you but, its BS.

I stand by the comment on low fares. I know you make a bunch of money, but haven't you noticed everything is getting more expensive? I don't see a lot of professionals out there falling over themselves to be cheap. I don't want to be cheap, and I don't want to go visit the budget heart surgeon (should I have to). I don't really want to see Ryanair out flying around for free someday (deep down). That is disgusting. Why would you want to make the observation that they perhaps got their model from you and be proud of it?

Your future profitability is in doubt enough that I would stop beating that drum so much. Yes, your making a profit as things are at this moment. But you can't truly pass on the real cost to consumers with the tiny incremental changes your doing now and that is a big problem.

 

[CaptainMark]

and 86 million..not that much money anyway!!!

 

[Flopgut]

Offhot

Good post. I actually didn't work for Braniff. But I can retrace a path in history where if things had gone slightly different large airlines like Cathay, Singapore or Emirates would be US companies with US pilots. That is certainly the case with cargo! The chips just fell a different way and they had a lot of artificial help. Braniff expanded because they felt the government would wise up to deregulation being an eventual failure. That may still come to pass. I don't think any of us, or any of them, could have imagined the contempt the US economy would have for workers. It continues today, 60 thousand layoffs coming for UAW and the administration says nothing.

 

[ivauir]

Flopgut,
I've NEVER attacked you. And I won't now. If you cannot see the good that SWA has done for the nation AND the airline business then you never will. Same goes for "Capt Mark" - If you think I've ever flown a 10 leg day or any of the other negative junk you enjoy posting about SWA; then continue to enjoy your ignorance.

 

[scoreboard]

You have to be able to see how FEDEX and UPS have been the standard for innovation. They have forever changed the global supply chain. They are at the height of human interaction with both hardware and software. I really like to see the debates of late between FEDEX and SWA. SWA types have had a great time bashing the legacies and it is nice to see the result when you start to measure your company against theirs.

Most importantly, when I speak of your (SWA) luck, I'm talking specifically about what brought us to this point. Terror and war are not examples of things you simply adapt to in any business easily. For instance, given the contibutions that UAL made to this country and economy for 60+ years there is no context for not granting them some sort of government loan guarantee. That was awful. What grates on me is the ease at which a SWA pilot employee can sieze upon anything of that nature and declare it was free and normal market forces. I know they have been great for you but, its BS.

I stand by the comment on low fares. I know you make a bunch of money, but haven't you noticed everything is getting more expensive? I don't see a lot of professionals out there falling over themselves to be cheap. I don't want to be cheap, and I don't want to go visit the budget heart surgeon (should I have to). I don't really want to see Ryanair out flying around for free someday (deep down). That is disgusting. Why would you want to make the observation that they perhaps got their model from you and be proud of it?

Your future profitability is in doubt enough that I would stop beating that drum so much. Yes, your making a profit as things are at this moment. But you can't truly pass on the real cost to consumers with the tiny incremental changes your doing now and that is a big problem.

Flopster,

You appear to live in a world with lots of storm clouds my friend, I do not. Your arguments make me think your bitter because you actually have to work for your paycheck, come on, we all have to earn a living, not live on the lamb.

I would submit the innovation you site is nothing more than adaptation, we at SWA do that pretty well. Innovation is "inventing something new", did they invent anything? Hardly. Adapted? heck yes, good on em.

You keep insisting that todays problems are a result of a single or string of events: Terrorism. I respectfully scoff that notion. Todays business environment was and is in motion because of factors to numerous to discuss on this forum, long before 9/11 events, and will continue long after. To cast blame for some woes on 9/11, then state that all companies effected should be bailed out is disengenuous to the American way of life. How long should we bail them out? How much? How much in taxes do you want to pay my friend? Oh, and 60plus years of contributions to society from United? Not a flame, but name one please, enlighten us. Anything you name can be answered with "because it made United money", period. And why not, thats the way we do it here.

Yes, everything is getting more expensive, its called inflation. Again, a standard result of a free market system. You don't want to go to the budget heart guy, but guess what, guys like you and me can't afford the wiz king Walstreet dude who makes 1 grand an office visit. So we get by on the guy in our PPO/HMO. Last time i went to my Dr, he seemed just fine.

I am not the HQ money magic man, hence I drive a plane, and this is not gloat, just keeping the debate going, but I can assure you that SWA is doing just fine raising fares, here and there, as needed. Our cost structure allows us this leeway, were are doing fine, wish we could do better, wish yours could do better. But, DO NOT BLAME US my friend. Please, we are less than %5 of the market, and we are the fault? Hardly.

I do agree on the future international problems. Why am i hearing more and more "Mexzicana" call signs?? Whats up with that? For you that work at the places that do go south, are we flying more down there?

So, can't we just all get along and have a beer?

 

[Flopgut]

Flopster,

You appear to live in a world with lots of storm clouds my friend, I do not. Your arguments make me think your bitter because you actually have to work for your paycheck, come on, we all have to earn a living, not live on the lamb.

I would submit the innovation you site is nothing more than adaptation, we at SWA do that pretty well. Innovation is "inventing something new", did they invent anything? Hardly. Adapted? heck yes, good on em.

You keep insisting that todays problems are a result of a single or string of events: Terrorism. I respectfully scoff that notion. Todays business environment was and is in motion because of factors to numerous to discuss on this forum, long before 9/11 events, and will continue long after. To cast blame for some woes on 9/11, then state that all companies effected should be bailed out is disengenuous to the American way of life. How long should we bail them out? How much? How much in taxes do you want to pay my friend? Oh, and 60plus years of contributions to society from United? Not a flame, but name one please, enlighten us. Anything you name can be answered with "because it made United money", period. And why not, thats the way we do it here.

Yes, everything is getting more expensive, its called inflation....

So, can't we just all get along and have a beer?

I love working. And I love to fly. I do live in a much different vocational reality than you do. I love the history of flying and I think by understanding the history of this business we can better prepare for the future. I am keenly interested in how the history of this most recent, enormous downturn is going to be recorded. You have an interesting perspective, I'm not sure you'll always be proud of that sort of ideal in the future. For no other reason than the name of our country was emulated in the corporate identities of UAL and AA, they bore a horrible burden. I still think that alone gets either of them a federal loan. UAL got turned down twice, they took it from the employees instead. They got no real bailout. I don't even like UAL but I can't imagine myself feeling OK with that. I respectfully disagree, FEDEX has innovated, UAL has adapted. SWA has picked up the pieces.

 

[Flopgut]

And yes, we should have a beer. And a nice chat about how you might learn from the legacies and protect what you have.

Mexicana? I don't know. Maybe you've been hearing the new CAL callsign: Texicana!

 

[scoreboard]

And yes, we should have a beer. And a nice chat about how you might learn from the legacies and protect what you have.

Mexicana? I don't know. Maybe you've been hearing the new CAL callsign: Texicana!

Bah Baaahhaa!! have not heard of that one.

Well, we agree to disagree then, gee, what else is new, have a good night.

 

[IB6 UB9]

..but every swa pilot 10 years ago would have chosen UNITED or DELTA over swa..and don't lie!

Using the every word, so would every FedEx pilot you idiot.

 

[SWA/FO]

but every swa pilot 10 years ago would have chosen UNITED or DELTA over swa..and don't lie

nope... Some maybe, and some did leave, those are the guys looking for work now. I just got off a trip with a former UPS guy. He said "he could not stand it" - his words. So you have a few leave SWA to fly freight and you have a few leave the freight guys to fly for SWA.

You need to get off the high horse $$$$ You don't have to prove to me you got a good job, I know you do.

There is nothing wrong with flying more then 180 hours a year. Most of us got into this business because we like flying.

Some where along the way it became cool to "do nothing" and get paid for it.. I consider this un-American....I also think its ok to work hard and play hard. I flew "on-demand" freight on a pager 24/7 and that was a tough job, I don't consider what I do now - tough at all. These years of getting paid to do nothing has caught up with a few companies. Productivity is what Southwest is all about and I am interested in keeping my paycheck rolling in.

 

[CaptainMark]

Using the every word, so would every FedEx pilot you idiot.

Not me...didn't want to wear a hat!!!! You idiot!!!!