Barron's breaks down industry.

[captain dad]

I just read an article in AIN about the upcoming issue of Barron's. It will have an article breaking down and comparing charter/fractional/ownership of several popular models of business jets. The issue hits stands 4-20-08. It should make good reading.

 

[dudemize]

Just read the article, good info.

It indicated a 25 hour card with Marquis is $126,900 for an Ultra. The going rate for a 1/16 share (50 hrs) of a 400xp is about $420,000 plus monthly management fees and hourly costs.

Here is the last paragraph:

In the end, no form of private aviation is as easy and cheap as buying a commercial airline ticket. So is it really worth hiring consultants, spending all this money and making all these decisions just to fly privately?
If you're asking that question, you probably haven't yet ridden on a business jet. As political consultant James Carville recently told this reporter, "If I had to fly commercial and could stay in the suite in the top of a hotel, or take a private plane and stay in just a room, I'd say, 'Give me the plane.' Once you have sipped the sweet nectar of freedom, you don't go back."

 

[gunfyter]

As political consultant James Carville recently told this reporter, "If I had to fly commercial and could stay in the suite in the top of a hotel, or take a private plane and stay in just a room, I'd say, 'Give me the plane.' Once you have sipped the sweet nectar of freedom, you don't go back."

What about the Gorebal warming?

 

[willNOTfly4free]

It indicated a 25 hour card with Marquis is $126,900 for an Ultra. The going rate for a 1/16 share (50 hrs) of a 400xp is about $420,000 plus monthly management fees and hourly costs.

Those cards are biggest rip-off in the charter industry.

I'm going to take out a newspaper add to say, "Pay me $100,000 and I'll get you 20 hours in a Citation." I could pay retail and still turn a profit.

 

[Fozzy]

"a Citation."

Lets start there. What kind of Citation? What kind of maintenance? What kind of training for the pilots? What kind of rest for the pilots? What kind of back up if your "Citation" breaks? What kind of support structure?
Sorry your nickel and dime daydream has a way to go.

 

[DO-82 driver]

What about the Gorebal warming?

Global (Gorebal) warming....Ha...Caribou, Maine had a record 218 inches of snow this year. Southern Maine average snowfall----123 inches.

I wish we had some warming----you should see my home heating oil bill!!!!!

 

[fischman]

Those cards are biggest rip-off in the charter industry.

I'm going to take out a newspaper add to say, "Pay me $100,000 and I'll get you 20 hours in a Citation." I could pay retail and still turn a profit.

As far as the MarquisJet Pax go, they pay for the QS tail and gold ties.

 

[sexybeast]

Your idea $5000/hr. for 20 hours

NetJets' Marquis card $5076/hr for 25 hours....I'd spend the extra $76/hr for a sure thing.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Those cards are biggest rip-off in the charter industry.

I'm going to take out a newspaper add to say, "Pay me $100,000 and I'll get you 20 hours in a Citation." I could pay retail and still turn a profit.

Well... You said you WOULDN'T fly for free!!!! Quit yur bitchin!!!

Also, it's not just the ride the pax pay for... it's the whole package; something they can't find anywhere else.

 

[Willy21]

Not to mention that when your Ultra breaks or the trip works out right you might be flying in a much larger airplane. I have had many Ultra card holders in the Hawker. All for the price of their Ultra jet card.

 

[realityman]

Not to mention that when your Ultra breaks or the trip works out right you might be flying in a much larger airplane. I have had many Ultra card holders in the Hawker. All for the price of their Ultra jet card.

It does work out well for them sometimes. I was flying some Marquis pax last week when we had to divert due to a mechanical issue. NJA had a Falcon 2000 waiting for them when we landed just 20 minutes later, and they were on the ground less than 15 minutes, and on their way again in a nice big Falcon. They were actually pretty excited about it because they'd never been in a Falcon before.

We are expensive, but we have economy of scale on our side. Makes for happier pax.

 

[jonjuan]

Not to mention that when your Ultra breaks or the trip works out right you might be flying in a much larger airplane. I have had many Ultra card holders in the Hawker. All for the price of their Ultra jet card.

But it works out the other way many times as I have a family friend who bought a Hawker 400 card and found himself flying on an Ultra most of the time as netjets told him that all light jets are fully interchangeable. He felt it was quite a bit of a bait and switch game as he bought one plane and found himself on a much inferior plane.

 

[jppt2000]

Those cards are biggest rip-off in the charter industry.

I'm going to take out a newspaper add to say, "Pay me $100,000 and I'll get you 20 hours in a Citation." I could pay retail and still turn a profit.

You must of been a member of Skybus management.

 

[realityman]

But it works out the other way many times as I have a family friend who bought a Hawker 400 card and found himself flying on an Ultra most of the time as netjets told him that all light jets are fully interchangeable. He felt it was quite a bit of a bait and switch game as he bought one plane and found himself on a much inferior plane.

The Ultra is much inferior to the 400XP? Well, it's slower, but I believe when comparing cabin size (similar), luggage capacity (similar), and ability to actually go anywhere with pax onboard (Ultra wins hands-down) the Ultra is in fact a better plane.

It may just be perception because he specifically paid for the 400XP, but an Ultra is inferior? We could probably have a nice debate about that.

 

[fischman]

But it works out the other way many times as I have a family friend who bought a Hawker 400 card and found himself flying on an Ultra most of the time as netjets told him that all light jets are fully interchangeable. He felt it was quite a bit of a bait and switch game as he bought one plane and found himself on a much inferior plane.

I think you have it backwards. The Ultra is not an inferior airplane to the 400xp from a passenger standpoint. Ultra isn't much slower, it holds more bags, it has better performance, and it doesn't break down as much.

The Beech 400 xp is not close when it comes to the Ultra.

 

[tk855]

But it works out the other way many times as I have a family friend who bought a Hawker 400 card and found himself flying on an Ultra most of the time as netjets told him that all light jets are fully interchangeable. He felt it was quite a bit of a bait and switch game as he bought one plane and found himself on a much inferior plane.

Out of curiosity, what was the deciding factor to purchase the card in the 400xp rather than the Ultra? 9 out of 10 times I think our Marquis owners buy the 400xp simply due to greater availability. As already said, the Ultra overall is a much better airplane. The only thing a 400xp has over an Ultra is a small amount of speed and all 400's are much newer than the Ultra's, that is it. The company ironically considers the 400xp an upgrade to the Ultra due to the aformentioned reasons, it is a complete joke! I wish they would correct that, it would be much easier for us pilots to do our job to the fullest.

 

[Bronco Buster]

Isn't here more headroom in the 400 when seated?

 

[jonjuan]

Out of curiosity, what was the deciding factor to purchase the card in the 400xp rather than the Ultra? 9 out of 10 times I think our Marquis owners buy the 400xp simply due to greater availability. As already said, the Ultra overall is a much better airplane. The only thing a 400xp has over an Ultra is a small amount of speed and all 400's are much newer than the Ultra's, that is it. The company ironically considers the 400xp an upgrade to the Ultra due to the aformentioned reasons, it is a complete joke! I wish they would correct that, it would be much easier for us pilots to do our job to the fullest.

The reason for the 400 over the ultra? Next to each other on the ramp, the 400 has a bigger cabin with a flat floor which is a big differentiator to many people. The prospects are also told that it's the fastest small jet in the world, further reducing costs. Finally, the younger age was a major consideration as the 400 had much newer avionics to include TCAS.

 

[captain dad]

Today, even as the economy falters, more and more corporations and high-net worth individuals are flocking to private aviation. Shipments of new business jets jumped 28% last year, to 1.138 aircraft. And Berkshire's own flight-services division, which includes fractional-share provider NetJets and an aviation-training company – posted a 49% jump in pretax earnings, to a record $547 million.

http://online.barrons.com/article/SB120856609051428165.htmlhttp://online.barrons.com/public/search/results.html?mod=b_hpp_header

All the arilines took it in the shorts. We made half a billion in gross profit. WOW!

 

[RP170]

It still amazes me though at how many Part 121 employees are still clueless as to who we are after airlining in my first 6 months here.

 

[RNObased]

But it works out the other way many times as I have a family friend who bought a Hawker 400 card and found himself flying on an Ultra most of the time as netjets told him that all light jets are fully interchangeable. He felt it was quite a bit of a bait and switch game as he bought one plane and found himself on a much inferior plane.

OK smart guy,

Obviously your family friend is about as smart as you are. How is the Ultra inferior to the 400XP. Have you flown either of these jets?? Have you ridden in either of these jets?? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?? Or is this statement just another Jonjuan idiotic theory?? Think then post.

 

[AirBear8]

The Ultra's can carry more bags than the 400XP and can get in/out of shorter runways and has fewer performance limitations but that's about the only advantages it has. Safety and pax amenities are better in the 400, we have TCAS (only a few Ultras do), standard AC power outlets, and XM Satellite Radio. It rides turbulence better due to the swept wing. The 400 is a great jet for a group of business people with light luggage but if you're bringing the family home from Wally World with tons of bags and souvenirs you'd be better off with an Ultra.

Airbear

P.S.: I've flown both the Ultra and 400XP at NetJets.

 

[fischman]

The Ultra's can carry more bags than the 400XP and can get in/out of shorter runways and has fewer performance limitations but that's about the only advantages it has. Safety and pax amenities are better in the 400, we have TCAS (only a few Ultras do), standard AC power outlets, and XM Satellite Radio. It rides turbulence better due to the swept wing. The 400 is a great jet for a group of business people with light luggage but if you're bringing the family home from Wally World with tons of bags and souvenirs you'd be better off with an Ultra.

Airbear

P.S.: I've flown both the Ultra and 400XP at NetJets.

Serious question here. What does a swept wing have to do with a smoother flight through turbulence?

Also, the Ultra at NJA should be completely retrofitted with TCAS by the end of 2008. That is from Dave Robbins, the CP.

 

[willNOTfly4free]

Serious question here. What does a swept wing have to do with a smoother flight through turbulence?

Might have something to do with the wing loading. The Beechjet does in fact ride turbulence better than a straight wing Citation. The BE400 rides turbulence like a speedboat over choppy water. The Citation wallows through turbulence like a King Air and makes people air sick.

Just my .02 of course.

 

[jonjuan]

Might have something to do with the wing loading. The Beechjet does in fact ride turbulence better than a straight wing Citation. The BE400 rides turbulence like a speedboat over choppy water. The Citation wallows through turbulence like a King Air and makes people air sick.

Just my .02 of course.

Bingo-a well thought out, unemotional, knowledgeable post-thank you and Airbear. The wing loading on the 400 is 67.6 lb/sq ft while the Ultra is 52.2. The downside is that the lower wing loaded aircraft will have a better rate of climb. Also, the 400 has a flat floor which is more comfortable for those paying the bills. TCAS also helps as safety equipment/avionics are important criteria when selecting an aircraft.

 

[RTRHD]

Serious question here. What does a swept wing have to do with a smoother flight through turbulence?

Long story short, it breaks the Felt Effect more due to the three-dimensional boundary layer (swept wing) as apposed to the two-dimensional boundary layer (strait wing).

But I am on my third beer. So I am just making this shtt up.

 

[captain dad]

Serious question here. What does a swept wing have to do with a smoother flight through turbulence?

Also, the Ultra at NJA should be completely retrofitted with TCAS by the end of 2008. That is from Dave Robbins, the CP.

A swept wing makes less lift than a straight wing. Therefore it is less effected by updrafts and gusts, thus making a smoother ride.

Got it right out of the book. You're welcome.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I like airplanes that fly ABOVE the turbulence....like FL510

 

[RTRHD]

I like airplanes that fly ABOVE the turbulence....like FL510

So true @ ISA - 40. Or no gas whichever comes first............

 

[Waldom]

Regarding how an airplane rides turbulence, it all has to do with the density altitude, coreolis effect, angle of decalage (positive or negative), and how your boogaloo situation stands, you understand.

Hope I cleared that up.

Don't listen to rtrhd; if he had been smart enough to be an aeronautical engineer, he would never have become a pilot.




[f.y.i. to those that have difficulty with the obvious; the above is written tongue firmly in cheek.]