Barnstormers Aerial Advertising

[AirplanesSuck]

"Owned?" You're not one of those pathetic little pilots who fears a simple little job like picking up a banner, are you?

Again, a poor carpenter blames his tools. Here we've seen many inadequate pilots who blame the job, rather than themselves. What we have here is both a lack of skill, a dearth of responsibility.

If I wanted to go back in time today but realized I cannot, should I blame my failure as a scientist or the lack of technology?

You're not wrong that some pilots are poor and blame the equipment errantly. However, that does not mean that every aviation endeavor is necessarily easy or wise.

You have regaled us with your harrowing stories of "flights under power lines," and we are all very impressed. However, everything is relative... and your multiple sorties where you were fired upon or landed on the moon make banner towing seem mundane, indeed. When compared to airline flying or flight instructing, for example, the banner towing biz involves more real risks that have little to do with pilot abilities or lack thereof.

 

[nismo611]

If I wanted to go back in time today but realized I cannot, should I blame my failure as a scientist or the lack of technology?

You're not wrong that some pilots are poor and blame the equipment errantly. However, that does not mean that every aviation endeavor is necessarily easy or wise.

You have regaled us with your harrowing stories of "flights under power lines," and we are all very impressed. However, everything is relative... and your multiple sorties where you were fired upon or landed on the moon make banner towing seem mundane, indeed. When compared to airline flying or flight instructing, for example, the banner towing biz involves more real risks that have little to do with pilot abilities or lack thereof.

That's absolutely hilarious I still can't get over the moon landing portion of that text!! I love this guys aviation stories!!!

 

[avbug]

Perhaps I'll get better tools this year so I can no longer blame them.

A better tool won't make you a better pilot,carpenter, or mechanic, if you're not up to the job. If you're concerned about the tools rather than your own performance, you've missed the mark. In this case, the "tool" is the banner towing operation. It's not the banner towing that's dangerous; it's the pilot. The job can be done safely, and easily. It's the pilot who is either capable, or not. Those who blame the job and suggest it's dangerous only betray their own ineptitude.

When compared to airline flying or flight instructing, for example, the banner towing biz involves more real risks that have little to do with pilot abilities or lack thereof.

Neither flight instruction nor airline operations are utility flying, whereas towing a banner is. Flight instruction, indeed a flight instructor certificate, is a teaching endeavor...not a pilot endeavor. Airline flying isn't more or less dangerous than banner towing. Neither is dangerous. The only component of either one is the pilot. Banner towing doesn't involve risks. A risk is a hazard one puts in play. One needn't accept, nor put in play a hazard. A hazard is a potential, and can easily be accounted. A risk is a potential realized when the pilot gives it an opportunity, or gives it a life.

A year or so ago we had a military pilot on flightinfo who insisted that banner towing was the most dangerous thing he'd ever done. It's a truly sad thing to imagine such a poorly informed, and incapable individual burning tax payer dollars inspite of his own incompetence. Perhaps the dilbert principle at work. Who knows?

Banner towing needs no comparison. Even for one with no experience, there's no reason to suggest banner towing is dangerous. It's not. It's little more than picking up an object and dropping it again, with the ability release it at any time, and a full foreknowledge of what to expect. It requires no particular skill or effort. It's little more than flying slowly for extended periods of time, with the greatest challenges being staying awake, and watching cylinder heat temperatures.

To make a ridiculous claim that towing a banner is a dangerous endeavor is to make claims about one's own inability, and lack of professionalism.

 

[AirplanesSuck]

A better tool won't make you a better pilot,carpenter, or mechanic, if you're not up to the job. If you're concerned about the tools rather than your own performance, you've missed the mark. In this case, the "tool" is the banner towing operation. It's not the banner towing that's dangerous; it's the pilot. The job can be done safely, and easily. It's the pilot who is either capable, or not. Those who blame the job and suggest it's dangerous only betray their own ineptitude.



Neither flight instruction nor airline operations are utility flying, whereas towing a banner is. Flight instruction, indeed a flight instructor certificate, is a teaching endeavor...not a pilot endeavor. Airline flying isn't more or less dangerous than banner towing. Neither is dangerous. The only component of either one is the pilot. Banner towing doesn't involve risks. A risk is a hazard one puts in play. One needn't accept, nor put in play a hazard. A hazard is a potential, and can easily be accounted. A risk is a potential realized when the pilot gives it an opportunity, or gives it a life.

A year or so ago we had a military pilot on flightinfo who insisted that banner towing was the most dangerous thing he'd ever done. It's a truly sad thing to imagine such a poorly informed, and incapable individual burning tax payer dollars inspite of his own incompetence. Perhaps the dilbert principle at work. Who knows?

Banner towing needs no comparison. Even for one with no experience, there's no reason to suggest banner towing is dangerous. It's not. It's little more than picking up an object and dropping it again, with the ability release it at any time, and a full foreknowledge of what to expect. It requires no particular skill or effort. It's little more than flying slowly for extended periods of time, with the greatest challenges being staying awake, and watching cylinder heat temperatures.

To make a ridiculous claim that towing a banner is a dangerous endeavor is to make claims about one's own inability, and lack of professionalism.

Out of curiosity, what kind of flying would you consider "dangerous"? (Relatively, of course)

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

His idea of picking up banners is rolling them up and putting them in the van.
(not dangerous at all)

 

[nismo611]

Being a bigger tool won't make you any better either. Maybe avbug can blame being an idiot on his own tools.

 

[bizjet800]

His idea of picking up banners is rolling them up and putting them in the van.
(not dangerous at all)

OR...he could have meant Web Banner ads, like the ones at the top of this page ^. Those can be dangerous, if there is a virus lurking!!!

 

[avbug]

Out of curiosity, what kind of flying would you consider "dangerous"? (Relatively, of course)

Given your commentary here, top of the list would be anything that involves riding with you, or with most of the posters here who are find banner towing dangerous.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

oh my, he went full retard again.

(you never go ---- -------)

 

[AirplanesSuck]

Given your commentary here, top of the list would be anything that involves riding with you, or with most of the posters here who are find banner towing dangerous.

So from my commentary here, you know I'm a bad/dangerous pilot, eh?

Quite an assumption, sport. Lucky for you most of the "posters here" don't jump to such conclusions about you based on your posts.


Now, how about a real answer that isn't designed to make you feel better about yourself and put others down?

Once more, what type of flying would you consider the most relatively dangerous?

 

[avbug]

So from my commentary here, you know I'm a bad/dangerous pilot, eh?

Yes. Being unfortunate enough to be stuck in an airplane with you would only confirm the fact. The same may be said by any of the others here who stand by the asinine and foolish assertion that banner towing is dangerous. That a pilot is afraid of his own shadow speaks volumes.

Now, how about a real answer that isn't designed to make you feel better about yourself and put others down?

I feel fine about myself, actually, and it's those who indulge in the fantasy of the most simple of flying jobs as being dangerous that put themselves down. That they're not embarrassed to say so also speaks volumes about them...and not a page of it is good.

Once more, what type of flying would you consider the most relatively dangerous?

Are you asking for a resume, now? I don't consider flying dangerous. I do consider many pilots to be dangerous, and they tend to put the risk in certain assignments. Banner towing, for example is not dangerous, unless it is undertaken by a dangerous pilot. It then becomes dangerous: not because the assignment is difficult or full or risk (because it isn't). It's simply that the pilot, doubting his own abilities and unequal to the task, is insufficient to perform his duty, and therefore dangerous. Accordingly, he believes the job to be dangerous in error, and through his belief, makes it so. A self-fulfilling prophesy, where all it takes is an inadequate pilot to turn a safe and benign task such as picking up and dropping a simple banner into a *dangerous* event.

What flying jobs do I consider dangerous? I don't. Just the pilots who undertake them...and let's face it, we see examples of this which range the gamut from private pilots who run out of fuel to ATP rated pilots who depart the wrong, closed runway in the dark and kill a load of passengers (and then bring lawsuits to cover their own ineptitude). The job isn't dangerous, just the pilot.

 

[AirplanesSuck]

Yes. Being unfortunate enough to be stuck in an airplane with you would only confirm the fact. The same may be said by any of the others here who stand by the asinine and foolish assertion that banner towing is dangerous. That a pilot is afraid of his own shadow speaks volumes.

Ok... I'll assume you consider yourself a serious person. Now, compare what you have said about my piloting abilities from a handful of posts to the comments people who actually have towed banners have made. Apply the same rationale to your assertion as you did to those who called banner-towing "dangerous." I make three or four posts you don't like, and now I'm a bad pilot. I doubt you're as smart as you think you are.

I feel fine about myself, actually, and it's those who indulge in the fantasy of the most simple of flying jobs as being dangerous that put themselves down. That they're not embarrassed to say so also speaks volumes about them...and not a page of it is good.

Fair enough... your opinion has been registered several times.

Are you asking for a resume, now?

Quite clearly, I am not.

I don't consider flying dangerous

I didn't ask if you considered flying dangerous. I asked what kind of flying you thought was "RELATIVELY" dangerous. Can you follow here?

I do consider many pilots to be dangerous, and they tend to put the risk in certain assignments.

Obviously.

What flying jobs do I consider dangerous? I don't.

Once again, it was "relative." Get it?

Just the pilots who undertake them...and let's face it, we see examples of this which range the gamut from private pilots who run out of fuel to ATP rated pilots who depart the wrong, closed runway in the dark and kill a load of passengers (and then bring lawsuits to cover their own ineptitude). The job isn't dangerous, just the pilot.

Since you won't answer the other question, maybe you'll answer this one:

Are you a dangerous pilot?

 

[avbug]

Now, compare what you have said about my piloting abilities from a handful of posts to the comments people who actually have towed banners have made.

You have not towed banners, then? You haven't a leg to stand upon in this conversation, and therefore no place in it? Very well.

I didn't ask if you considered flying dangerous. I asked what kind of flying you thought was "RELATIVELY" dangerous. Can you follow here?

I follow perfectly. It's your comprehension that lacks. Asked and answered.

Whether you elect to call a particular assignment or discipline *dangerous* or *relatively dangerous* is irrelevant. Towing a banner is not dangerous. It is not "relatively dangerous" either. The pilot may be dangerous. The pilot may not be relatively dangerous in comparison to other work he does. A pilot who cannot fly his way out of a wet paper bag, who cannot operate beyond the very center of the flight envelope, who has no feel for an airplane, who is afraid to use the performance of the airplane, who doesn't understand a rudder, who has the reflexes and mental agility of a sloth, and who lacks in the basic skills generally accorded a student pilot may be fully able to function as an RJ pilot...but entirely inept performing a simple duty such as picking up a banner. This doesn't make the banner pickup dangerous, or relatively dangerous. It makes the pilot relatively dangerous. Simply because he hasn't killed anyone in his supervised, tightly controlled, center-of-the-envelope airline job doesn't mean he's safe at whatever he intends to do. He's a dangerous pilot, realtively more so in the Cessna 172 or Pawnee or whatever else towing that banner, than in his RJ.

The nature of the job does not change. The requirements for the job do not change. They remain minimal. A firearm is not safe or unsafe; it simply is. The user makes it one way or the other. An airplane is not safe or unsafe. It simply exists. The user makes it dangerous. An assigment isn't safe or unsafe. As professionals we perform safely. It's the user who makes the difference. One who is afraid to tow a banner or finds it dangerous simply reveals far too much about his or her own insecurities and inabilities. A minimal degree of skill and effort is required of the pilot, and it is too much for that individual. His or her mettle is tested and found soft and easy to scratch. The issue is not whether the aircraft is up to the task, or whether the task is frought with hazard and risk. The issue is whether the pilot retains the most basic of skills necessary to safely accomplish the job. Those who find it dangerous, or "relatively dangerous" reveal only their own inadequacy in this regard, and illustrate the weak link in the job. It isn't the airplane or the banner. It's the pilot. This is all.

Am I a dangerous pilot, you ask? No.

I don't consider the job dangerous either, as I'm comfortable performing it (else I wouldn't do it, you see), and take the time to learn and understand the job such that it can be performed safely, without stress, without damage and without harm. If the job were "dangerous," why would one do it? It's not dangerous. One who does the job safely and professionally is not dangerous. Flying jobs may be broadly classified into one of several categories; white-collar jobs,and blue collar jobs. Many blue collar jobs are
utility assignments which typically use more of the performance envelope of the airplane than white collar jobs, which typically demand a little more effort and attention to detail, and which often involve a slightly lower degree of comfort. Often utility flying involves work.

I do both types of flying, but am happiest when the job involves some challenge and some work. I do not fear my work. Those who do are certainly performing the wrong work. Handpropping a propeller isn't dangerous, if one knows what one is doing and does it properly, safely, carefully, and follows basic guidelines. One who cannot follow basic guidelines is apt to hurt one's self or someone else, and therefore represents the dangerous element. I don't find my work dangerous because I don't bring danger to my work, it's that simple. Those who do find their work dangerous do so not because the work is dangerous, but because they bring danger to work with them, and are therefore hazardous to the job.

 

[AirplanesSuck]

You have not towed banners, then? You haven't a leg to stand upon in this conversation, and therefore no place in it? Very well.

I have. Apparently you inferred that I didn't, while lacking even the implication to make such an assumption. I see you often make assumptions about others with very little information. You have done it to me several times already.

I follow perfectly. It's your comprehension that lacks. Asked and answered.

Let me ask it another way, then... because you certainly didn't answer. Relatively, what flying job contains more risks that must be mitigated by a superior pilot such as yourself?

My comprehension is just fine, and I comprehend a pilot who is trying to hide his own ego and incoherence of thought behind paragraphs of diatribe about the supposedly inferior pilots with whom he is forced to deal... at least on the internet.

Whether you elect to call a particular assignment or discipline *dangerous* or *relatively dangerous* is irrelevant.

Actually it isn't. Riding a bicycle has more inherent risk than sleeping in a bed... even when the rider is as skilled as Lance Armstrong. I'm just asking you a simple question, and you're avoiding it... I'm not sure why, but I'll do you the favor of not making wild assumptions about how you think or why you do the things you do. You have not given anyone else here that same respect (and basic logical reason).

The nature of the job does not change. The requirements for the job do not change. They remain minimal. A firearm is not safe or unsafe; it simply is. The user makes it one way or the other. An airplane is not safe or unsafe. It simply exists.

You're talking about objects, here. Apples and oranges. We need to be discussing the task, as if it were performed by a superstar like yourself. I've been asking the wrong question.

What type of flying has the most inherent risks?

The user makes it dangerous. An assigment isn't safe or unsafe. As professionals we perform safely.

That's just silly. If I assigned you, a hypothetical navy seal, to scuba to a submerged submarine and place explosives on it... would you consider that more dangerous than me asking a professional interior designer to hang some drapes? I don't even know why you're arguing about this.

It's the user who makes the difference. One who is afraid to tow a banner or finds it dangerous simply reveals far too much about his or her own insecurities and inabilities.

Or admits that there are real risks that exist in the task that wouldn't exist somewhere else.

It isn't the airplane or the banner. It's the pilot. This is all.

You forget the task and risks involved. Risk does not disappear with skill. Skillful pilots can only manage certain risks, not eliminate them entirely.

Am I a dangerous pilot, you ask? No.

Again, I'll afford you more respect than you seem to afford anyone but yourself and believe you. Logically, from reading a few of your posts, I have no idea. You could be a student pilot for all I know. But I have your word, and that will have to be enough.

On the other hand, you can carry on calling other pilots dangerous for their different opinions. It says more about you than it does about them.

I don't consider the job dangerous either, as I'm comfortable performing it (else I wouldn't do it, you see),

Some people relish danger, you see.

and take the time to learn and understand the job such that it can be performed safely, without stress, without damage and without harm.

Good for you. That's very professional.

If the job were "dangerous," why would one do it?

Again, some people like danger, or the perception of danger.

I do both types of flying, but am happiest when the job involves some challenge and some work.

What challenge? If there is some challenge, doesn't that mean you expect difficulties? That's what challenge in a job is, after all.

I do not fear my work.

Neither do I. But I certainly think what I do is relatively more dangerous than sleeping, to use that example again. I understand the risks and expose myself to them knowingly... and manage or eliminate every risk I can.

I don't find my work dangerous because I don't bring danger to my work, it's that simple. Those who do find their work dangerous do so not because the work is dangerous, but because they bring danger to work with them, and are therefore hazardous to the job.

It's not "that simple." You act as if the simple existence of your skill and professionalism eliminates all risks before you ever get in the plane. You may be as good as you say, but I seriously doubt you're that good. I have known several pilots who have an illusion of control. As if their arrival in the flight deck/cockpit prevents all bad from happening. I know several 13-year-olds who think the same way.




For anyone else who may have read this whole thing... is this guy/gal always like this?

 

[avbug]

Some people relish danger, you see.

Again, some people like danger, or the perception of danger.

There is no accounting for the stupidity of some folks.

Let me ask it another way, then... because you certainly didn't answer. Relatively, what flying job contains more risks that must be mitigated by a superior pilot such as yourself?

I certainly did answer. Your comprehension lacks; clearly further effort to address this lack is wasteful. I never stated that I am a superior pilot, or insinuated as much in any way, shape, or form. The issue of a "dangerous" or "relatively dangerous" job has been addressed in enough detail already. That you fail to understand does not merit further discussion.

I have. Apparently you inferred that I didn't, while lacking even the implication to make such an assumption.

You have? You have towed a banner? You, who said "Now, compare what you have said about my piloting abilities from a handful of posts to the comments people who actually have towed banners have made." You want me to compare you to people who have actually towed banners. If you've towed banners, then how does one compare you to those who have *actually* towed banners. Are we to infer that you have "actually towed banners," but wish to be compared with yourself? Very well, actual banner tower...do you consider banner towing to be a dangerous activity?

Seems the implication is there, with no assumption needed, as you provided both when you requested a comparison between you and those who "actually have towed banners."

I've been asking the wrong question.

What type of flying has the most inherent risks?

Yes, you have been asking the wrong questions. You continue to do so.

What type of flying has inherent risks? No flying has inherent risks. Hazards exist, which can be made into risks by putting them in play. An airplane at rest is not at risk, or a risk. A pilot who places an airplane in jeopardy puts hazards in play to create risk; these do not exist without the pilot's actions and decisions.

Pilots who fail to practice risk-elimination invite problems, and accordingly, the "inherent risks" of any activity in flight are dependent upon the pilot who flies the mission.

When undertaking a tanker drop, I operate in turbulent mountain conditions close to the ground in low visibility, in proximity to numerous other aircraft in an uncontrolled environment, in a heavy aircraft, which is performance limited, in areas subject to rapidly changing wind conditions, strong downdrafts, and airborne objects such as tree branches, large birds, etc. This is not a risky environment.

Drops are made downhill, always planned with an adequate exit in the event a drop system fails and the entire weight of the aircraft must be taken down canyon. Communication is maintained. Crews are experienced, trained, and work frequently together. Lead aircraft are used who often have already been through the same area and can report on the conditions, exits, etc. Each hazard is eliminated or mitigated by the pilot in order to make a safe drop. Air attack platforms overhead watch out for other aircraft, for changing conditions, call the drop, and follow us throughout our time over the fire. Every aspect of the drop from the time we get the dispatch until we're back on the ground washing the airplane is closely monitored, including onboard flight tracking which enables agency personnel to know where we are and what we are doing every second we're airborne. It's not the environment or the job. It's the pilot. If the pilot is not up to the task, the pilot won't survive. It's that simple.

Ag work is very much the same way. It's not a dangerous job. It's very much up to the pilot to make it routine or dangerous...but again, this is a pilot function, not a job function.

Banner towing is no different. Pick up the banner, tow the banner, drop the banner. Not exactly rocket science, hardly "dangerous," or even "relatively dangerous," even if you're one who has "actually towed a banner."

If I assigned you, a hypothetical navy seal, to scuba to a submerged submarine and place explosives on it... would you consider that more dangerous than me asking a professional interior designer to hang some drapes?

You understand this is an aviation forum and we're discussing the simple act of picking up a banner in peacetime, domestic, tranquil conditions, do you not? If indeed you have "actually towed a banner," did you attempt to plant explosives at the same time, or hang a drape? If so...we see why you're a dangerous pilot.

However, a trained professional underwater demolitions specialist determines if his assignment is dangerous. Neither an explosive charge, nor a submarine is dangerous. It's all about the operator. I know very little about interior decoration, but I don't believe that hanging drapes is known as an excitement-filled james-bond type adventure, either. Either way, whether it's underwater demolitions, curtain hanging, interior decoration, or towing a banner, you won't find any of them on the "top ten most dangerous jobs" listings.

What challenge? If there is some challenge, doesn't that mean you expect difficulties? That's what challenge in a job is, after all.

That may be true for you. I find enough challenge in simply being professional about my duties. Challenge is little more than ensuring adherence to clearances, to altitudes, to drop or release points, or to a mission profile. Challenge needn't be about difficulties. Perhaps you find your job difficult. If so, this doesn't say good things about you, or your competence to do the job One need not find, expect, or experience difficulties to challenge one's self and strive in exactness and precision. If this is not the case for you, then this is also a problem for you. You needn't, however, make that assumption of others.

You act as if the simple existence of your skill and professionalism eliminates all risks before you ever get in the plane. You may be as good as you say, but I seriously doubt you're that good.

I've made no statements, implied or otherwise, regarding how "good" I may be at what I do at any given time. What I have stated is that those who fear their job or believe it's dangerous, particularly given a simple, easy job such as picking up and towing a banner, are unsafe by the very nature of their uncertainty and fear.

Eliminating risks is not about skill. Risks don't exist until the operator puts a hazard in play. That's what a risk is...a hazard in play. There's no risk of a grenade sitting on a table exploding until the pin is pulled. Until then, there's certainly an explosion hazard, but no risk of it exploding. Pulling the pin creates that "risk." One need not be particularly skilled to use the grenade or eliminate the hazard or risk, but a certainly level of basic competence in both manual of arms and understanding and use of the grenade is necessary to eliminate the risk to self, in using the grenade. One has simply to dispose of the grenade. Some are dangerous in doing so; failure to keep a straight arm, make a proper arc, release in a timely manner, or who simply fumble the grenade lead to unfortunate results. Even the simple use of the grenade won't be found on the top ten most dangerous undertakings, however....because those who carry and use them are properly trained, and need not create a risk by the carriage or operation use thereof.

The same may be said of banner towing. You speak as though some great exceptional skill is involved in picking up a banner. It's not. If one approaches at the proper airspeed (airspeed control is a necessary skill required of a student pilot, remember), one has only to place the airplane in the proper position to retrieve the banner bridle, carried between two poles. One need only pitch and climb with power at this point. If one encounters a problem, assuming one has exercised even the most basic of common practical skills and good sense, then still no danger exists; this is why we have release mechanisms onboard. Again...this is not rocket science.

One does not need to be exceptionally skilled to do this assigment. That's really the whole point. Only basic skills are required in order to do this job safely...and those who find the job to be dangerous lack in the most basic of skills and understanding. As you appear to uphold the same misguided mentality, this may very well apply to you, too.