B717 vs. 90 seat RJ

[Burt Reynolds]

I know that the 717 is out of production, but just for sake of discussion, why does it make sense for a mainline/LCC to fly 90 seat RJs built in Canada or Brazil instead of flying 717s made here in the good old U.S. of A.?

I assume that the RJs are cheaper to purchase, but I don't know for sure. Anybody familiar with the captial/operating costs of these two? How about break even point, etc.

It would also seem that there would be fewer startup difficulties with a new aircraft from Boeing, but that's just an opinion.

Anyway, just random thoughts on a reserve day...

 

[Superpilot92]

Its because the companies want us to Feel Like Regional Pilots and fly RJ's so we can get paid to fly "RJ's" Its probably just a way to down play what we do.

 

[Mav204]

Mesa has the CRJ-900 with 86 seats Midwest has 88 seats on the 717.....Look at the pay rates!!!

The CRJ-900, or any RJ's can't carry all that carry one bags, so 86 people have to wait on the ramp/jetway to get their bags.

USAirways is putting the 900 Jet on their 737 routs...good job Airways MEC!!

 

[Whine Lover]

DC-9-10

Look at NWA (etc.) pay rates in the past....Always in line with Industry Standards for jet aircraft. Most operators ran the DC-9-10 with 60-70 seats I believe. (?)

The so called "Regional" jet's and the subsequent acceptance of scumbag pay rates that are so far below scale show what Pilot's truly are:

Uneducated, Unthinking, Illiterate....Rubes.

The "Regional" jet pay argument is a testament to Management and an absolute indictment of the lack of intelligence on the part of Pilot's as a whole, and the corruption which is inherent in their so-called "Unions".

YKW

P.S. - For a short while I was an ALPA Negotiator... I left in disgust with the Idiots I was working with, and for.

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Q- Why would you "burn that bridge"?

A- Simple...Why does a plumber plug a sewer line? He doesn't want the Sh!T to back up on him.

 

[Slice121]

Agreed! Even more pathetic is D.Woerthless' signature on every contract...how has he not been held accountable for any of this during his tenure? Does he even bother to peruse any of these contract before he endorses them.

 

[General Lee]

Mesa has the CRJ-900 with 86 seats Midwest has 88 seats on the 717.....Look at the pay rates!!!

The CRJ-900, or any RJ's can't carry all that carry one bags, so 86 people have to wait on the ramp/jetway to get their bags.

USAirways is putting the 900 Jet on their 737 routs...good job Airways MEC!!

The MEC also (thanks to the AWA guys) took away E190s from CHQ and added them to future mainline planes. All of the future USAir E170 orders changed to E190s also. The rates are the best so far for that airplane.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Crossky]

I know that the 717 is out of production, but just for sake of discussion, why does it make sense for a mainline/LCC to fly 90 seat RJs built in Canada or Brazil instead of flying 717s made here in the good old U.S. of A.?

I assume that the RJs are cheaper to purchase, but I don't know for sure. Anybody familiar with the captial/operating costs of these two? How about break even point, etc.

Supposedly AirTran didn't continue the JetConnect agreement with AirWisc when they determined that they could do the flying we were for lower per seat mile in their 717's than in our CRJ's. It didn't help when they wanted us to change to CRJ700's but our conservative management said no due to not being able to take advantage of "economies of scale" (10 CRJ700's only, not much parts commonality with the CRJ200).

I'm pretty sure that the 717 has better cost per seat mile than the CRJ200, don't know about the other CRJ's. Plus normal size overhead bins and seats.

It's all about scope. The 717 was caught in scope arguments between the regionals and the majors/LCC's. Too big for the regionals, and too short of a range for growing LCC's.

 

[Thedude]

The MEC also (thanks to the AWA guys) took away E190s from CHQ and added them to future mainline planes. All of the future USAir E170 orders changed to E190s also. The rates are the best so far for that airplane.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Unlike DL that gave away 50+ seats

 

[Burt Reynolds]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think the 90-100 seaters should be at the regional level...

 

[BoilerUP]

I was told by mainline US pilots that they lost a bunch of 737s in BK2 and thats why the 900s are flying out of CLT...

 

[xjhawk]

just to make things totally clear, its evident that ALPA has failed us as a union. Imagine if you were a laborer in a union shop. You could transfer to another shop, bring your seniority retirement vacation.....and your pride with you. Now imagine you are a pilot....and your union sucks because it will not set standards to live by.....standards to make all pilots professionals....oh try talking some professional into undercutting a fellow professional....not going to happen...they will be shamed by the rest of their industry.

One seniority which keeps your pay protected....no airlines undercutting the other. Your vacations....retirement programs, longevity all belong to the union.....so it goes with you as you go from one airline to the next. think about it people.....think about it.

 

[75M]

Supposedly AirTran didn't continue the JetConnect agreement with AirWisc when they determined that they could do the flying we were for lower per seat mile in their 717's than in our CRJ's.

Joe Leonard told us in recuurent tat year that the 717 was cheaper to operate period. In his words, the "plane mile" cost of the 717 was cheaper than the "plane mile" cost for the Air Wisconsin CRJs.

FWIW

 

[El Ocho]

just to make things totally clear, its evident that ALPA has failed us as a union. Imagine if you were a laborer in a union shop. You could transfer to another shop, bring your seniority retirement vacation.....and your pride with you. Now imagine you are a pilot....and your union sucks because it will not set standards to live by.....standards to make all pilots professionals....oh try talking some professional into undercutting a fellow professional....not going to happen...they will be shamed by the rest of their industry.

One seniority which keeps your pay protected....no airlines undercutting the other. Your vacations....retirement programs, longevity all belong to the union.....so it goes with you as you go from one airline to the next. think about it people.....think about it.

I'm thinking about it... but as I recall from "Flying the Line," ALPA in its earliest days opposed the one seniority list... So if it has always been against it, why would that change now?

Isn't one of the inherent problems of seniority (with humans!) getting the more senior people to care at all about the rest of the group?

Tell me how you are going to get any concessions from senior pilots to accomodate this better system for all pilots. No one wants to integrate seniority lists because then they might have to wait longer for their golden goose egg!

Maybe its that extreme difference between new and old pilots that needs to be looked at too.

 

[Burt Reynolds]

Wouldn't one senority list just cause the airlines not to hire a senior guy looking for a job?

 

[cybourg10]

Wouldn't it have been smart for boeing to expand the 717 to mabye around 120 seats? With those fuel efficient engines it would have made a perfect fit for many LCCs and a nice replacement for the MD80. Or was that the job for the 737-700?

 

[zawillif]

Yeah it would've killed the 737 or the other way around. It's not cost effective to have 2 different aircraft with the same seats sold by the same company.

 

[BlueCanoe]

Enough Hijacking!!!

I know that the 717 is out of production, but just for sake of discussion, why does it make sense for a mainline/LCC to fly 90 seat RJs built in Canada or Brazil instead of flying 717s made here in the good old U.S. of A.?

I assume that the RJs are cheaper to purchase, but I don't know for sure. Anybody familiar with the captial/operating costs of these two? How about break even point, etc.

It would also seem that there would be fewer startup difficulties with a new aircraft from Boeing, but that's just an opinion.

Anyway, just random thoughts on a reserve day...

We won't discuss the oversized CRJ, which is still a cramped WSCOD.

As for the E-Jet...The cabin is built for passengers. The seats are as wide as an airbus, pitch is great, all the bags come on board, it's fairly quiet, and fairly stingy on gas.

The 717, I can only speak on from a passenger perspective. The seats are still tiny old-school 1st generation size coach seats.

The economics, I don't know, we'll have to see how the 190 does once it gets an operator other than B6.

A 170 costs about 25 mil...

P.S. The "old" DC-9 rates that originated back during regulation, when airlines were guaranteed to make money still don't compare to airlines that operate the same planes today. It's a different world folks....wake up any day....