B6 Virtual Basing

[oldxfr8dog]

I think it's a bad idea. It dilutes the flying at JFK etc where most will be based. I think this concept works well if you are senior. It's good for the few and bad for the many. LGB is a perfect example, it was created at an airport where we have 23 flights a day and are unable to grow beyond that. So basically you have a base that was created for a handful of folks over the long run. Just my opinion. By the way I don't live near JFK, I commute like 90% of us.

I don't think the base was created "for a handfull of folks", although that might be accurate regarding FLL. It was created after a major storm shut down JFK and it was realized that it just about shut down the airline.
I agree LGB wasn't the best choice. A better long range decision might have been OAK. There is room for growth and there aren't the legions of anti-noise granolas.
You don't live near JFK, but I'll bet you don't have an offline, 2-leg transcon commute. If I had to keep that up for the rest of my career, I would have found another job.

 

[1-tacan-rule]

VBs

But am I wrong about my Virt Basing assumptions?

 

[FNG320]

The facts... (as I see them)

But am I wrong about my Virt Basing assumptions?

Virtual Basing does save the company money. That is a fact. The reduction in hotels and perdiem can really add up.

As for the pilots at the virtual base life can be great. Living where you are based, no commuting, more time at home, etc..... The main problem is that when the take from the total pool of flights system wide to build the lines/pairings for the new base (virtual or real), it dilutes the available pool of flight to construct the pairings at the main base. Historically, the new base gets the "good to great" pairings in productivity and days off. This is because their pairings are constructed from the whole pool of trips vs a limited supply (The best and most productive trips picked of course). Then the main base gets to have it's pairings built with the crap that is left.

This has happened twice at JFK. First when FLL became a crew base, the productivity and bias toward FLL was outrageous (averaging over 2 days off a month and an average productivity of over an hour per day for over a year!). But then, the guy who built the pairings lived in FLL (wonder why?) And when FLL opened, JFK productivity went down significantly. JFK ended up with all kinds of really crappy trips (13-16 hour 4 day, 16-18 hour 5 day trips and the like). JFK got the leftover garbage that FLL didn't want. The perfect pairings were constructed to help their productivity. Yet 80-90 percent of FLL lived in the area!

It also happned when LGB opened as a crew base. The productivity at JFK again went down, but not as signicantly when compaired to FLL.

So it will happen again. When you have limited trips, because the best stuff is given to FLL and LGB, JFK takes it in the shorts. JFK's pairings are built with the "left overs". So, it will happen again if they open other citie(s) as virtual bases. However if it is done there should be some rules.

Here are some things to consider:
1. Most of the pilots in FLL live in the area.
2. Most of the pilots in LGB live in the LA area or are within a 2-3 hour drive.
3. Most of the pilots in JFK are commuters.
4. Most pilots of a virtual base would chose that base because they live in that area.

If virtual bases are to be constructed, then the pairings need to be with the following rules
1. Pilots bid the remote base for a minimum fixed time (6 month is JB std)
2. The pairings will be constructed with average to below average productivity. This is so that the pairings at JFK can be made productive for the commuters. The pilots in the virtual base get the benefit of not having to commute and save time/days off because of this. No way should any small base (FLL, LGB, xyz, abc, etc) be equal to or more productive as JFK. Most of the pilots at JFK commute and need the increased productivity to get the same number of days off. JFK commuters should not pay the price of productivity to allow other to be based at home.
3. Limit the number of pilots at each remote base so as to not reduce the pilot pool at JFK to a level that there are no reserves to support JFK pilots for time off, open time etc.
4. Not worry about pilots who complain about the boring or unchangeing trips. If you are remote based, you will get limited and maybe unchanging trips. Live with it, or bid back to JFK for a change. (this applies to FLL and LGB also)
5. To maximize the savings, the company needs to extremely limit the number of pilots that who overnight in company bases.
6. If a pilot can't handle these restrictions, then don't bid the remote base.

So, virtual basing can be great, but it all depends... I hope that helps.

FNG

 

[NuGuy]

The hardest part about the virtual basing is the reserve system. Every base is going to have to have SOME reserve pilots if you are going to maintain your schedule integrity.

If someone calls in sick for the morning, you are SOL until a later flight can bring a reserve in if you don't staff it right.

Nu

 

[Floatplane]

Junior Guy Gets Reserve!!

This is not rocket science. The most junior guys in the virtual base get to sit reserve at home.

 

[FNG320]

Reserves can defintely be a problem. But sitting reserve at home, That would be awsome! At home on your off days, and at home on your work days. It would depend on manning and other reserve work rules, but it has a lot of +++++.

Even if line holders were to be "reserve" some fixed number of days in their line (one option), it could be pretty nice to be at home at their virtual base with a line or on reserve.

FNG

 

[HalinTexas]

FNG, you wrote that like it was going to be included in "the contract."

B6 management won't do it if it costs them money and/or efficiency. They have the final say. That is to say, they may try is, but if it doesn't work, they'll change back to the old way.

 

[Maj]

As a JFK commuter, I'd certainly opt for a few less hours to be virtually based in a large central Florida city. Let's face it, the pairings at JFK aint gettin' any better (at least for me) these days!

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

The concept is good, but a the end of the day, some folks will not be happy no matter what you do. That's life. I hope the workgroup can get through all the issues and come up with a viable plan that will appeal to the majority of pilots.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Virtual Basing does save the company money. That is a fact. The reduction in hotels and perdiem can really add up.

As for the pilots at the virtual base life can be great. Living where you are based, no commuting, more time at home, etc..... The main problem is that when the take from the total pool of flights system wide to build the lines/pairings for the new base (virtual or real), it dilutes the available pool of flight to construct the pairings at the main base. Historically, the new base gets the "good to great" pairings in productivity and days off. This is because their pairings are constructed from the whole pool of trips vs a limited supply (The best and most productive trips picked of course). Then the main base gets to have it's pairings built with the crap that is left.
However if it is done there should be some rules.

Here are some things to consider:
1. Most of the pilots in FLL live in the area.
2. Most of the pilots in LGB live in the LA area or are within a 2-3 hour drive.
3. Most of the pilots in JFK are commuters.
4. Most pilots of a virtual base would chose that base because they live in that area.

If virtual bases are to be constructed, then the pairings need to be with the following rules
1. Pilots bid the remote base for a minimum fixed time (6 month is JB std)
2. The pairings will be constructed with average to below average productivity. This is so that the pairings at JFK can be made productive for the commuters. The pilots in the virtual base get the benefit of not having to commute and save time/days off because of this. No way should any small base (FLL, LGB, xyz, abc, etc) be equal to or more productive as JFK. Most of the pilots at JFK commute and need the increased productivity to get the same number of days off. JFK commuters should not pay the price of productivity to allow other to be based at home.
3. Limit the number of pilots at each remote base so as to not reduce the pilot pool at JFK to a level that there are no reserves to support JFK pilots for time off, open time etc.
4. Not worry about pilots who complain about the boring or unchangeing trips. If you are remote based, you will get limited and maybe unchanging trips. Live with it, or bid back to JFK for a change. (this applies to FLL and LGB also)
5. To maximize the savings, the company needs to extremely limit the number of pilots that who overnight in company bases.
6. If a pilot can't handle these restrictions, then don't bid the remote base.


FNG

FNG, you are in error.
LGB has MUCH poorer pairings, fewer reserves, and percentage-wise has no more people that live in base than JFK does. Most commute from somewhere in the West.
The credit between the bases is very close to the same, it's the matter of days it takes to attain it that is important.
In December, LGB was staffed so that only 9 days of the month were available for PTO. The same month, JFK could PTO 23 days, FLL could PTO 28 days!
You say JFK should have better schedules than the smaller bases because people live there? Then I suppose the people that live within 2-3 hours of JFK should have crappier trips also.
Fair is fair, your schedule and pay should be based on your seniority, not your base. It should be as close to the same as practical

 

[8vATE]

Just wanted to add my perspective on a couple of comments made..



FNG...

I'm not sure how many airlines you've worked for and how long you've been at jb..

But the "conspiracy theory" about the guy who writes the schedules and lives in FLL and of course there is a bias and preference for FLL schedules... I just don't see it...

I know from 15 years of airline experience and talking to "the guy" that he knows what he's doing... and he spends a LOT of his FREE time trying to address everyone's needs and desires...

And I should remind you... its a LOT OF WORK and jb isn't paying near enough to do it...

The airline business comes pretty much down to one thing...

efficiency/productivity....

gates... pilots... airplanes... f/a's...

and yes the impact of opening LGB and FLL affected the quality or "mix" of trips at JFK... and yes ... I believe they opened FLL and LGB probably too early in the life of the airline..

But all along the company was trying to make improvements in the quality of life..

guys bid LGB and are really complaining about the mix of flying there..
But its all a TRADEOFF....


The PTO out in LGB seems to be a real problem for sure...
you need to be able to use pto....

but its a seniority driven window in the bid closing process ...
and if you don't get it then... and you're junior ...your chances are going
to be very limited during the rest of the month (first come/first serve)..
Better to bid a vacation week and use your vacation that way if you're junior...

FLL staffing has bounced around a LOT the past 3-4 months...
we were VERY fat in jan/feb/ march
april flying went up 700 block hours... should put us more inline with system reserve coverage.....

back to lgb schedules......there are only some many "entry" and "exit" points for flying for LGB... it will always be an issue unless we get more short haul out of there....(unlikely)..
and it is difficult to transition the west coasters to east coast schedules and avoiding early east coast am reports on a multiday trip without drastically hurting productivity..

when FLL opened it sucked up a LOT of the east coast north/south... (FL to NY rountrips and east coast two leggers= about 6 hours)

so of course JFK will always have more transcon/redeye/carib flying...


so my main point is..

there is NO CONSPIRACY..

believe me..

I've worked where mgt/non-pilots build the schedules...
you don't seem to understand how impressive an avg 6 hour systemwide
productivity is.... it is amazing..

and it will always be changing.... fluctuating... and someone will always bitch about something... but the pilot input at this place is unprecedented!

FWIW...

 

[8vATE]

Any news on this topic...bases considered?....how will it work?

The acual buzzword is officially dynamic basing..


BOS is definitely the frontrunner... MCO originally was but that has pretty much run out of gas since the route structure is not supportable out of there yet (only NY/BOS now)..


You will be dynamically based in BOS but still will be a JFK based pilot if the system is activated...

the main issue is reserve... which it appears there won't be reserves based there..

so the BOS group will have to sacrifice and be willing to "rescue" a trip on a day off if they want the perk of having a dynamic base..


Flying will vary month to month so staffing needs will vary....

if the pilot group understands the concept and the needs to ensure schedule integrity for noshows/sick calls .... it could be a good thing...

MCO may see one eventually .....but apparently we need a west coast and/or a medium leg out of there to improve the productivity/scheduling solution..

FWIW...

 

[airbaker]

FNG, you are in error.
LGB has MUCH poorer pairings, fewer reserves, and percentage-wise has no more people that live in base than JFK does. Most commute from somewhere in the West.
The credit between the bases is very close to the same, it's the matter of days it takes to attain it that is important.
In December, LGB was staffed so that only 9 days of the month were available for PTO. The same month, JFK could PTO 23 days, FLL could PTO 28 days!
You say JFK should have better schedules than the smaller bases because people live there? Then I suppose the people that live within 2-3 hours of JFK should have crappier trips also.
Fair is fair, your schedule and pay should be based on your seniority, not your base. It should be as close to the same as practical

Spot on!

 

[stillflyn]

I don't see how BOS is going to be a dynamic base. Do we have enough pilots who live in or near BOS to cover all the flying? LGB has 4 gates and 23 flights a day. 50 Capt's and 50 F/O's are based in LGB. We're starting BOS with 6 gates and getting another one every month. Will we need 100 pilots or more to be dynamicly based in BOS? If you're dynamicly based in BOS would you have trips starting out of JFK and BOS? Sounds like a big hotel bill or two crashpads......

Wouldn't a mini base like FLL or LGB be a better idea?

I'm not for or against it.... I'm just wondering how it will work.

 

[wndshr]

what are the rumors about OAK base/virtual or real??? why doesn't JB use OAK as a base once SWA opens up their new terminal?? should allow for a few more gates and added flights??

 

[LEROY]

OK I'm going to pretend to be a dumba$$ here and ask, why do they call it "B6", doesn't it trade as JBLU on the stock market?

 

[GuppyPuppy]

OK I'm going to pretend to be a dumba$$ here and ask, why do they call it "B6", doesn't it trade as JBLU on the stock market?

Not a dumb question at all.

I'm not sure if B6 is the IATA code, but it is used in airline scedules.

B6 = JetBlue
WN = Southwest
HP = America West
UA = United
OO = SkyWest
DL = Delta
AA = American
NW = Northwest
US = USAirways

Can't remember much more than those from my days as a CSR...geez, it's been over ten years!

JBLU is the ticker symbol for its stock. Some people will know it better by its ticker symbol than its two letter identifier. Just like SKYW and OO. Both represent SkyWest.

Cheers!

GP

 

[FNG320]

OLDXFR8DOG, 8VATE, AIRBAKER,

Lets look at the facts.... (you know add up the numbers from the emails)

Using Dec03 thru Dec04 metrics here is the story

For Captains (FOs are similar)

JFK 16.11 days off, 5.71 hours per day
LGB 16.36 days off, 5.86 hours per day
FLL 17.20 days off, 6.33 hours per day

"there is NO CONSPIRACY" well the facts say something may be alittle rotten there. Yes greater than 6 hours per day productivey is "amazing", but I guess the show that only FLL gets to be "amazing"

Don't go by the email that published the "projected" averages that come after pairing construction, go with the metrics that show what people actually got. That is real data. Both FLL and LGB beat JFK. And FLL did it by an extra day off per month, and a half hour per day. 03 was similiar numbers. A day off may not seem like much, but take a a Capt at FLL and pay him just 5 hours at premium pay and on that extra day off and he is making almost $900 more that the JFK Capt for the same number of days off. Thats over 10 grand a year that the the FLL captain can make over the JFK or LGB Capt! That adds up!

LGB pairngs did suck many still do, but the numbers say they still beat JFK by just a little. Yet these small bases with very few commuters should be the ones with the lowest productivity.

All of the bases have some pretty crappy pairings. Look at all of them. But by far, JFK has more than its fair share of pairings that average less than 5 hours per day. Just add them up. (total days and trips)

Poor variety as an issue, well you are at FLL, LGB or a future virutal base, then live at home and don't have to commute. If you want variety, then bid JFK and travel the whole system every other 6 month.

Seniority is important among those at each base, but going to a small base/virtual base doesn't make it right, or give you the right to then demand that as a "senior" pilot you should get better more productive trips. You get the best trips that are avialable at that base, the the best in the whole system. If you want great trips with productivity, then go to JFK and let your seniority do the talking. Otherwise live with the fact that you are living at home and don't have to commute is your "compensation" for not getting the variety and high productivity that JFK should get. And hey, you can be the most productive of those at that base. Lets make it simple:

If you want productivity go to JFK
If you want to live where base then go to FLL, LGB or the virtual base(s)
If you want both, then move to NY and be based at JFK.

PTO and reserves manning is really a problem. It is a sine wave at JFK that is always 180 out. At FLL and LGB it is a flat line that is always negative. That is a problem that Ops and hiring need to fix by hiring more pilots. No other way to fix it. Vitrual bases have the potential to help or hurt this issue. If reserve is spread among flying line holders help, have dedicated reserves, hurt. The more bases, the more reserves.

Ok, enought for now.

Flame on......
FNG

 

[Zmanav8r]

FNG,

You have a pretty selective month there. For that month, you are correct. However, is it always that way? Take a look at the last 12 months and then come back and state your findings. I think you will find that you are not exactly presenting an accurate picture.

As far as commuters at the various bases I will agree that more people at JFK commute than the others but I know that the number at the other bases are not as small as you think. You have an opinion and every one is entited to their own but some are more accurate than others. I put yours in the latter category.

Z

 

[Maj]

It's not a selective month. It's Dec '03 - Dec '04. I know because I did the same analysis myself (and I read FNG's post) and came up with the same conclusion. Oh yeah, LGB and FLL also always get their schedules at least a day before JFK!