Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

B6 and AA may get cozier

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
I got queazy reading that...

but then again...a lot of that was all an analyst's outlook on things. I've read stuff from these guys in the past that never came to fruition.
 
So I understand the immense cultural differences between B6 and American. That part I understand why a lot of B6 guys would not want to see this happen. I also understand the huge losses that AMR is seeing right now. However based on the fact that American has about 7000 guys retireing in the next 15 years, and B6 has very few retireing in the next 15 years wouldn't it mean a merger between the two companies could potentially be a pretty good deal for the B6 pilot over the long run. Especially the junior ones. Not to mention there would potentially be a much larger option of bases to commute or move to, especially for the west coast guys. Larger equipment and longer routes, which will equate to larger pay checks and more time off. Any descent amalagation of the two pilot list, even a staple (god forbid) of B6 would mean the most junior guy on there list (soon to be me I hope) would be a captain of almost any equipment within 5 years due to retirements. Also a merger of the two contracts would fix several of the issues most B6 guys have regarding medical and retirements plans, and some of the issues the AMR guys have like DH, and cancellation pay. I would love a B6 guy to let me know if I am way off base here, and tell me what I am missing.
 
All of that is discussed from time to time in the flightdeck while we solve the world's problems. But...AA still has about 2000 guys on the street. WE have about 2000 pilots. I see your point...but in the short term...it would be very bad for a JB pilot.
 
$$$4nothin said:
So I understand the immense cultural differences between B6 and American. That part I understand why a lot of B6 guys would not want to see this happen. I also understand the huge losses that AMR is seeing right now. However based on the fact that American has about 7000 guys retireing in the next 15 years, and B6 has very few retireing in the next 15 years wouldn't it mean a merger between the two companies could potentially be a pretty good deal for the B6 pilot over the long run. Especially the junior ones. Not to mention there would potentially be a much larger option of bases to commute or move to, especially for the west coast guys. Larger equipment and longer routes, which will equate to larger pay checks and more time off. Any descent amalagation of the two pilot list, even a staple (god forbid) of B6 would mean the most junior guy on there list (soon to be me I hope) would be a captain of almost any equipment within 5 years due to retirements. Also a merger of the two contracts would fix several of the issues most B6 guys have regarding medical and retirements plans, and some of the issues the AMR guys have like DH, and cancellation pay. I would love a B6 guy to let me know if I am way off base here, and tell me what I am missing.
Click to expand...

It doesnt take a B6 pilot to answer that question.

Merging with AA would be like standing infront of a Kansas tornado. Under the current state of affairs the B6 pilots have zero guarantees. The merger could happen as you suggest but the B6 pilot group could be left on the curb; ie not asked to dance. You have alot to learn about the state of industry affairs. APA does not have a stellar track record of taking care of merger crowds. Without steel tight language you can pretty much expect a rape job for all those in Blue shirts.
 
With a union we will get a fair shot at the seniority integration because of the new legislation. Without a union the legistlation might not apply, in which case we are left to the good graces of the apa. The apa in their defense has a stellar track record of treating other pilot groups well, ie Reno Air, TWA. I'm not a rabid union guy, but the idea of merging with American without protections scares the crap out of me.
 
JetBlue has its issues with debt but I am beginning to question the long term viability of AA. It's not a knock on their employees but rather a story of mismanagement. If AA buys JetBlue, right now that means even bigger losses for AMR. If AMR enters bankruptcy be very afraid, they would buy JetBlue in a heartbeat.
 
I think everyone cuts AMR management to pieces, but I think they have done a solid job of developing their role in the oneworld alliance. Anti trust immunity with BA/IB, JAL, and Qantas will pay dividends. Focusing on their cornerstone strategy makes sense to me (largest O&D and premium markets in the country), and a flexible fleet renewal plan will prime them for the best or worst case scenarios. Not to mention impending 77W and 787 deliveries for int'l expansion.

AMR mgmt is between a rock and a hard place. They did the right thing by not going BK post 9/11, but that also means they didnt slash their costs like DAL/UAL etc. Simultaneous contract negotiations with all three labor groups doesnt help either. The BK rules have changed, so I really doubt there will be a BK filing in the near term (not to mention ~6 bil cash on the balance sheet). Their biggest problem right now is labor, and I have no idea how they will solve that one.

Could AA+B6 get real cozy? Not right now because of the super high costs of AMR and drastically lower costs of B6, but in the next few years I bet AMR will lower their costs and we will raise ours at B6. Meet in the middle and then there could be some action. In the mean time I could see oneworld membership and/or codeshare with AA.
 
n757st said:
With a union we will get a fair shot at the seniority integration because of the new legislation. Without a union the legistlation might not apply, in which case we are left to the good graces of the apa. The apa in their defense has a stellar track record of treating other pilot groups well, ie Reno Air, TWA. I'm not a rabid union guy, but the idea of merging with American without protections scares the crap out of me.
Click to expand...


Yep...
 
Headfake14 said:
...AA still has about 2000 guys on the street. WE have about 2000 pilots. I see your point...but in the short term...it would be very bad for a JB pilot.
Click to expand...

I see your point here, however every AMR guy I have had in my JS of the last year said they would be surprised if 10% of the 1900 furloughs come back.

Regarding the point that without union protection AMR will rape B6. Based on previous AMR mergers I understand your concerns as far as B6 pilots being left on the street but with the amount of retirements about to happen at AMR all the B6 pilots will be needed to fill seats.

Having union protection for b6 would help immensly though I think.
 
I don’t think merger is in the works..... They have the best of both worlds right now. Share revenue though interline possibly code share soon. Don’t have to access credit markets for the transitional events. Don’t have to deal with DOT or DOJ for merger approvals. However I do see this as a one side deal, lots of benefits for AA and not so much JB. AA get to enjoy an indirect increase in market share in NYC and lower operating cost though JB. JB become more and more dependent in AA revenue and a cap in lucrative international routes. With that said they could announce the merger tomorrow. The reality is that unless you are in the board room you are as clue less as I am….. A union may or may not get us a seat at that table. However, right now we don’t even have a chance at that seat.
 
AMR and AA are going to down size/ spinoff Eagle....its going to happen.

JFK is a slot limited airport and it is AA's largest international hub and they don't get alot of pax coming over from LGA so they need JB to do what AA and JB are aready doing on a small scale......Feed AA international traffic out of JFK. Under the current interline agreement AA has access to a limited number of seats to 20+ domestic JB destinations. If AA and JB merge then larger AMR/AA control 100 + domestic takeoff and landing slots at JFK and all the seats ....this will feed their multi billion dollar terminal and international operation. BOS is part of this interline agreement as well, they have already closed the Eagle base there.

Add to all of this they get back the Caribbean at a greatly reduced CASM.

The day JB places a new order for 250 Airbus 319, 320 and 321 NEO's will be the day when this possible merger becomes a done deal...mark my words.
 
Before we see an AA/B6 merger I think we will see a B6/VX merger. That creates an even more attractive piece to fill the holes in AAs network.
 
Flyby1206 said:
Before we see an AA/B6 merger I think we will see a B6/VX merger. That creates an even more attractive piece to fill the holes in AAs network.
Click to expand...

Seriously? What do you think would happen to YOUR pay if you merged with VX considering NEITHER of you have ANY legal protection.

Here's a hint: Lowest common denominator.

Figure it out. Be careful what you wish for.
 
Fubijaakr said:
Seriously? What do you think would happen to YOUR pay if you merged with VX considering NEITHER of you have ANY legal protection.

Here's a hint: Lowest common denominator.

Figure it out. Be careful what you wish for.
Click to expand...



Hey, it's just Fubi spreading more of his positive thinking. :rolleyes:

B6 crew, I hope you never find out what that type of merger would feel like. AA would definitely kill your great product and ruin a perfectly good airline. Good Luck! :cool:
 
$$$4nothin said:
I see your point here, however every AMR guy I have had in my JS of the last year said they would be surprised if 10% of the 1900 furloughs come back.

QUOTE]

I wonder how many of those guys went to JB back in the early 2000's? Would it be better for them to take the AA recall so as to try to avoid a staple? Or take they're chances at JB, hoping that a more fair seniority list integration would occur? (what are the chances that those mid-senior Captains may or may not lose their captain slot with a list integration?)
Click to expand...
 
And of course in a future AA merger situation the TWA'ers get screwed big time.
 
An AA/B6 merger makes very little financial sense and that is exactly why it will happen. Better start digging out those white shirts.
 
QUOTE]
(what are the chances that those mid-senior Captains may or may not lose their captain slot with a list integration?)[/QUOTE]

It would be a very temporary loss of a captain slot, if any. Way to many retirements at AMR over the next 10 years to see much of any long term loss of seat or pay.
 
Integration is ultimately based on negotiation. Using the Dal/Nwa integration as an example B6 pilots would be integrated based partially on percentage of seniority and career expectations. You will not see a top 100 B6 pilot in the left seat of a 777.
 
Lake Alice said:
Integration is ultimately based on negotiation. Using the Dal/Nwa integration as an example B6 pilots would be integrated based partially on percentage of seniority and career expectations. You will not see a top 100 B6 pilot in the left seat of a 777.
Click to expand...

I imagine it would end up being a 10-15yr fence.

I thought SWA was buying us this year? Maybe next year...
 
To be honest if we are merged with AA its not that big of a deal. Better pay, work rules, schedules, retirement, aircraft. The big question will be the integration. Without a union all bets are off. With a union we have a very fair chance based on post M/B mergers. Jetblue is a nice place to work but money, benefits and retirement are what matters. I don't give a crap if a gate agent, ramper or any member of management likes or dislikes me. Money talks.
 
The very thing that makes B6 attractive would be killed-off the minute we became part of AMR. JB makes sense because of our brand, culture, service, etc. We have our problems like all airlines, but from a customer standpoint, when we're on...we are ON! It's a great ride for the $$ and people generally know that.

If AA buys B6, imagine the training costs AA incurrs in the next 5-7 years with all the retirements and pilots changing airplanes? That alone is a costly & logistical nightmare.
 
AA is reportedly in talks with Airbus for a significant A320 order. AA and Jetblue management are well ahead of the Jetblue pilot group. Case in point Jetblue was in talks with AA for over 8 months regarding the initial "Alliance" agreement announced last year. This potential order for 100 320's plus our current fleet and orders will more than replace their aging MD-80 fleet. I'm not a pessimist nor a conspiracy theorist, I'm a realist. Something is up between our two company's.
 

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top Bottom