AWA/USAir Deal Near

[321 busdriver]

Hey Donger, I couldn't agree with you more. I, for one, think you did get shafted. Empire, as small as it was, deserved to get slotted as a worse case scenerio. You were screwed! And I'm not saying that anyone will get shafted, I'm just simply responding to the fact that that a fair and equitable " merging" of the lists, if this thing comes to pass, is the only right way. I took offense to the other gentlmens feelings that since AWA seems to be on the way up, and U down, then let's put them where they belong. Best of luck to all of us.

Wait a minute. You "Piedmont" guys were quick to staple the Empire guys like me. Don't go there. The Piedmont/USAir agreements went to arbitration with the outcome being DOH - not slotting as Piedmont pilots wanted.

I agree with career expectations being suspect to interpretation. I for one don't want to see anybody at either company get shafted if this merger happens. Clear heads must prevail and forward thinking must rule the day. There is no looking back, things are never going to be the way they were. Let's all try to be civil and go with the flow because in the end we don't have a choice if these management weenies decide to merge.

 

[321 busdriver]

I'm just rambling, too. It's a stressful situation, no matter what happns. I have certain beliefs about what should happen to the lists, as you do, but I will accept and honor whatever the decision. If " career expectations" is the way it goes, then I will assume the role of our Braniff guys and show up as your FO and give you 100%. Best of luck to all of us.

321, Agreed.

Of course career expectations are subject to interpretation, thats where as you say, the math gets fuzzy. What may have been in the past should have no relevance. The present is what matters. IMHO.

One things for sure. This will NOT be the nations largest LCC. Not a chance. I'm not sure anyone will be able to get Airways cost down. Even Doug Parker. Surely, not from the employee groups. Can't get blood from a turnip. Where does the cost savings come from. Million dollar question?

If J.O. gets even a little bit of a hand in this new entity, none of us will wan't to work there anyway. This is from first hand experience, unfortunately.

Apparently, not to many other people see the logic in this as well.

Entertaining for SWA though. They will sit on the sidelines drinkin a little Wild Turkey waiting for the inevitable (along with some friendly competition of course). As we wade through 4 regionals, a SH%T ton of debt, and hundreds of more furloughs. Gheez, wonder why SWA does so well. It isn't magic.


Well, just me rambling again.

 

[Cactus73]

Hey Donger, I couldn't agree with you more. I, for one, think you did get shafted. Empire, as small as it was, deserved to get slotted as a worse case scenerio. You were screwed! And I'm not saying that anyone will get shafted, I'm just simply responding to the fact that that a fair and equitable " merging" of the lists, if this thing comes to pass, is the only right way. I took offense to the other gentlmens feelings that since AWA seems to be on the way up, and U down, then let's put them where they belong. Best of luck to all of us.

What is "fair and equitable?"

Your definition is going to be very different than most AWA pilots definition. This is why this is almost certain to end up in arbitration if this comes to pass.

Career expectations help define fair and equitable. They are not everything.

Just as it would be grossly unfair for an AWA guy to be able to bid over an A330 guy, it would be unfair for a USAir guy to come back from the street to displace and AWA guy.

The problem remains, we will probably never agree on what is fair.

But IMHO, career expectations are important here. I was not in much danger of getting furloughed until my CEO decided to look into merging with a bankrupt airline.

 

[Yank McCobb]

I was not in much danger of getting furloughed until my CEO decided to look into merging with a bankrupt airline.

WTF?!?

Did the local Mega Lo Mart have a sale on rose-colored glasses this week?

Anytime you start to believe that you are "not in much danger of getting furloughed", especially working for a carrier that has been back and forth on the edge of bankruptcy itself, then you need a reality check. Bad.

This business lends itself to anyone and everyone constantly in danger of furlough, or worse. You are certainly not immune.

 

[TheDonger]

321 busdriver, thanks man. I think we US Airways pilots know more than most what's involved in a merger. We pilots might like to think we have control, but the reality is we're along for the ride like everyone else. The thing we all need to remember is to be fair. I am sure there will be a thousand interpretations as to what "fair" means or is going to mean. Lastly, if there is a merger everybody has got to stop looking back that they were this airline or that airline. I am still sick of hearing about Piedmont 15 years later...it's really irrevelant at this stage of the game. Whatever happens let's all be civil and do what's best for our entire profession. Good luck all!

TheDonger

"Dong, Dong...where is my AUTOMOBILE...?"

Hey Donger, I couldn't agree with you more. I, for one, think you did get shafted. Empire, as small as it was, deserved to get slotted as a worse case scenerio. You were screwed! And I'm not saying that anyone will get shafted, I'm just simply responding to the fact that that a fair and equitable " merging" of the lists, if this thing comes to pass, is the only right way. I took offense to the other gentlmens feelings that since AWA seems to be on the way up, and U down, then let's put them where they belong. Best of luck to all of us.

 

[TheDonger]

Catus73, you're acting like US Airways isn't bringing anything to the merger table on this. If that was the case we wouldn't even be talking "merger." You might be surprised at your career expectations should this merger occur. Again, don't be so hasty, let's just wait and see.

What is "fair and equitable?"

Your definition is going to be very different than most AWA pilots definition. This is why this is almost certain to end up in arbitration if this comes to pass.

Career expectations help define fair and equitable. They are not everything.

Just as it would be grossly unfair for an AWA guy to be able to bid over an A330 guy, it would be unfair for a USAir guy to come back from the street to displace and AWA guy.

The problem remains, we will probably never agree on what is fair.

But IMHO, career expectations are important here. I was not in much danger of getting furloughed until my CEO decided to look into merging with a bankrupt airline.

 

[ash5855]

WTF?!?

Did the local Mega Lo Mart have a sale on rose-colored glasses this week?

Anytime you start to believe that you are "not in much danger of getting furloughed", especially working for a carrier that has been back and forth on the edge of bankruptcy itself, then you need a reality check. Bad.

This business lends itself to anyone and everyone constantly in danger of furlough, or worse. You are certainly not immune.

I'm sorry yank. I'm gonna have to agree with cactus on this one.

While I totally agree that nobody in this industry is immune from furlough or worse. The fact remains that AWA made a 30+ million dollar profit last quarter and would probably wind up 2005 cash positive. They still have 20 or so more airbus deliveries coming over the next two years and were on track to hire 200+ this year. Any mention of furlough is only in the same breath as the word merger.
Doug Parker has stated many times that we could walk away from this deal and remain strong as a stand alone carrier. Can U management make the same claim?

'm sorry, but as far as career expectations and relative company health, any attempt to spin these two companies as anywhere near equal is comical.

please don't get me wrong. I don't advocate a staple or any ratio that would displace USair pilots out of their current seats. I do, however, feel that even one pilot coming out of furlough to displace a gainfully employed AWA pilot would be one too many.

 

[321 busdriver]

No sweat. I for one am sick about hearing about Piedmont! And I am Piedmont! I can hardly remember who I flew with last week. 1989 is a long time ago. I have great memories ( I think) of Piedmont, I think we would be in a totally diferent situation right now, but reality is what it is. Let's move on. No matter what, I will treat any FO with AWA with the respect that comes with being a professional, just as I will if I am an FO for any AWA Captain.

321 busdriver, thanks man. I think we US Airways pilots know more than most what's involved in a merger. We pilots might like to think we have control, but the reality is we're along for the ride like everyone else. The thing we all need to remember is to be fair. I am sure there will be a thousand interpretations as to what "fair" means or is going to mean. Lastly, if there is a merger everybody has got to stop looking back that they were this airline or that airline. I am still sick of hearing about Piedmont 15 years later...it's really irrevelant at this stage of the game. Whatever happens let's all be civil and do what's best for our entire profession. Good luck all!

TheDonger

"Dong, Dong...where is my AUTOMOBILE...?"

 

[Cactus73]

Catus73, you're acting like US Airways isn't bringing anything to the merger table on this. If that was the case we wouldn't even be talking "merger." You might be surprised at your career expectations should this merger occur. Again, don't be so hasty, let's just wait and see.

Where am I being hasty?

I'm acting like USAir isn't bringing anything to the merger? Where did I say this?

I was arguing career expectations, not the merits of the new route system.
These two are quite different.

Our COO told a recurrent class to today that our revenue is above previous projections and our cash postion is also right on target. We continue to take new Airbus at a rate of about one per month. N675AW, N676AW, and N835AW just joined the fleet in the past month.
He was clear that AWA is doing just fine as a stand alone entity and the "merger" would be a strategic long term move.

He also cautioned that if a deal is reached, it will probably look nothing like any of us expect and to ignore the media stories.

To Yank McCobb,

No I don't have rose colored glasses. I could get furloughed tomorrow if another 911 happens. We have little control over this.

I'm just strictly comparing career expectations to a current AWA pilot and a current USAir pilot- nothing else.

As I said before, we will never agree to what is fair.

 

[Hpilot]

putting on the parachute

I agree with Cactus. Prior to the merger talks I wasn't that concerned about a furlough. Although I was partially set up ie. no debt but my house. Since the talks started I've sold one of my toys(911) just to have the extra 20 grand cash and have started networking in preparation. Parker must know something I don't because to me it seems a really bad idea to merge. Best of luck to both sides.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

What is "fair and equitable?"

Your definition is going to be very different than most AWA pilots definition. This is why this is almost certain to end up in arbitration if this comes to pass.

Career expectations help define fair and equitable. They are not everything.

Just as it would be grossly unfair for an AWA guy to be able to bid over an A330 guy, it would be unfair for a USAir guy to come back from the street to displace and AWA guy.

The problem remains, we will probably never agree on what is fair.

But IMHO, career expectations are important here. I was not in much danger of getting furloughed until my CEO decided to look into merging with a bankrupt airline.

Ok let me clear this up for you guys one last time. USAirways MEC thru LOA93 sealed the fate of all AAA pilots not on the property ie furloughed pilots in the event of a merger. In layman's terms furloughed AAA pilots remain furloughed with NO that's right boys and girls NO RIGHTS towards displacing current pilots on the property!!!! Here endth todays lesson...

WD.

 

[On Your Six]

Furloughed USAirways pilots displacing current/flying AWA pilots would just be wrong in my opinion - and I am a furloughed pilot (ex-UAL).... I know how the ALPA rules work, but it just seems wrong...

This would be a very thorny integration no doubt, but AWA pilots could argue that USAirways might disappear altogether without a merger (kinda reminds me of TWA and AA). I don't envy anyone on either side.

 

[TheDonger]

This was on another board

TO: US Airways MEC

FROM: Bill Pollock, Chairman, US Airways MEC

DATE: May 12, 2005

SUBJECT: Special MEC Meeting Notice – May 19 and 20, 2005

In accordance with Article IV, Section 3 D (1) of the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws, MEC Chairman Bill Pollock hereby notifies the MEC that a Special MEC Meeting has been called for Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 9:30 a.m., and will adjourn Friday, May 20, 2005 at 5:00 p.m., or at the completion of business.

The Special MEC Meeting will be held at the Pittsburgh Crowne Plaza Hotel, 1160 Thorn Run Road, Coraopolis, PA 15108, Phone: 412-262-2400, fax: 412-264-9373.

The agenda for the meeting is:

1) Briefing by the Negotiating Committee and MDA Working Group regarding MDA issues.
2) Consideration of selection of a merger counsel.
3) Consideration of selection of an investment banker.
4) Consideration of the staffing of the Merger Committee and potential election of a Merger Committee member or members.
5) Discussion of the need for an assessment of the membership regarding merger expenses.

 

[PositiveRate]

It's no secret that both MEC's are getting ramped up for what may come. It would be foolish not to prepare for what is going to be a long, tedious process.

Also, it seems pretty clear that the junior AWA guys/gals are pretty safe with respect to the being replaced by furloughed USairways pilots...the main fear here towards the bottom of the list is the rumor of 60 airplanes going away with a completed deal.

It's likely fair to say that the 10 planes just announced would count towards the floated '60' number. It's also more likely that the carrier in BK will be able to shed airplanes easier than AWA (as well as bear the brunt of the furloughs)...you can also "maybe" count the A/C AWA has on delivery (15ish??). Even after all that (assuming USair sheds another 15 a/c or so), if the 60 number is true, there's still an excess of 20+ planes. I think in this situation, you might start to see furloughs from AWA, but that would be some time down the road.

Just talked to Cactus73 and he said that the Chief Pilots office told him that the voluntary leaves being offered have nothing to do with the merger and everything to do with a previously planned reduction in flying (particularly the 737) over the summer...this is also why new hire classes were pushed back to late summer, early fall.

At first glance, though, it all seems related, but I try to take conspiracy theories with a grain of salt.

FWIW.

 

[321 busdriver]

Good afternoon. Two observations here. 1) Our furloughed guys, as far as I know, have no protection. The last round of givebacks addressed fragmentation rights. It makes me ill to think that these guys who have given so much, and have been thrown to the wolves, will have no rights whatsoever. 2) U is generally out of pilots by the 3rd or 4th of the month. I'm pretty sure that I read that there would not be any furloughs as a result of returned aircraft. For once, I believe them. Scheduling calls all hours of the day and night trying to get coverage. Since Mr. Parker said he began looking into this over a year ago, and was just waiting for the unions to capitulate, then it seems to me that maybe all this has been orchastrated for some time and the streamling of the two airlines would not result in any additional furloughs. Of couse, I sleep during most of my trips now, and could be wrong. Best of luck to you. ( And for the guy who had to sell his porsche, let me give you the address of a friend of mine who shot himself because he could no longer handle the stress. ) I'm sure his kids will be in therapy forever. Positive rate, I know that wasn't your post, but I'm sure he'll be reading it anyway. Again, gl.

It's no secret that both MEC's are getting ramped up for what may come. It would be foolish not to prepare for what is going to be a long, tedious process.

Also, it seems pretty clear that the junior AWA guys/gals are pretty safe with respect to the being replaced by furloughed USairways pilots...the main fear here towards the bottom of the list is the rumor of 60 airplanes going away with a completed deal.

It's likely fair to say that the 10 planes just announced would count towards the floated '60' number. It's also more likely that the carrier in BK will be able to shed airplanes easier than AWA (as well as bear the brunt of the furloughs)...you can also "maybe" count the A/C AWA has on delivery (15ish??). Even after all that (assuming USair sheds another 15 a/c or so), if the 60 number is true, there's still an excess of 20+ planes. I think in this situation, you might start to see furloughs from AWA, but that would be some time down the road.

Just talked to Cactus73 and he said that the Chief Pilots office told him that the voluntary leaves being offered have nothing to do with the merger and everything to do with a previously planned reduction in flying (particularly the 737) over the summer...this is also why new hire classes were pushed back to late summer, early fall.

At first glance, though, it all seems related, but I try to take conspiracy theories with a grain of salt.

FWIW.

 

[ultrarunner]

If AWA were smart, they just pick up what they want at the U liquidation sale. It's gonna happen.

 

[321 busdriver]

Wish I had a dime for every Nostradamas out there. It certainly ccould happen, but if it doesn't, I'll look for your retraction. Oh, that's right. There won't be any as you'll put some sort of spin on this post.

If AWA were smart, they just pick up what they want at the U liquidation sale. It's gonna happen.

 

[TWA Dude]

If AWA were smart, they just pick up what they want at the U liquidation sale. It's gonna happen.

That's what they all said about TWA -- but it didn't happen. If you're so good at predicting the future you should have no trouble getting rich off your investments.

Edit:
321 beat me to it. I guess we're amongst the few who are smart enough to not make predictions.

 

[ultrarunner]

Hey, I'm just playing the odds. You think U is a viable investment, more power to ya!

 

[Fly4hire]

If AWA were smart, they just pick up what they want at the U liquidation sale. It's gonna happen.

There may be more to that than just hyperbol. What some others are saying:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050513/BUSINESS/505130440/1003

"..Both airlines fly Airbus and Boeing jets and probably would use a merger to reduce the number of older planes......Ashcroft said Southwest not only would be a fierce competitor on fares and service, but might also try to spoil an America West-US Airways deal by bidding on US Airways assets......The most optimistic thing that Roger King, an airline analyst with CreditSights, could say about combining the airlines is that it could be a "way of liquidating US Airways in an orderly fashion..."

From Planebeusiness.com (subscriber) newsletter:

Is AWA deal for US Airways Going to Fall Apart?
Finally, we had an interesting note this week from one of our favorite subscribers -- who wrote a thought-provoking email.

And I quote:

"When Doug Parker walked away from the ATAH deal, I thought he must be pretty sharp. It's hard when you get into the negotiation for these deals, to just walk away. He did, and I was impressed.


No question but that this deal is a disaster for AWA if he goes through with it. Then again, and stick with me because you might find this a stretch... if he pulls the plug at the very last minute, likely US Airways will have few options left. It would bring to fruition what every airline CEO goes to bed praying for each night.

So, the question is...Is Doug Parker this smart, or will he prove to be that dumb?

If I were an airline CEO hoping upon hope that my competitor would fail or I needed a competitor's assets so that I can survive, I might just bring him to the altar, only to dump him at the very point of inflection by which he would meet his demise.

But hey... that's just me."


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