AWA/US Air --integration plan

[joevollers]

fbj...
If you think a ratioed merging of the lists is awa taking advantage of usa then ur high..

If we went doh and then furloughs were necessary down the road they would come off the awa list... so why should we accept that?

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

fbj...
If you think a ratioed merging of the lists is awa taking advantage of usa then ur high..

If we went doh and then furloughs were necessary down the road they would come off the awa list... so why should we accept that?

I'm High? Good argument. DOH is long standing precedent. Not perfect as you guys are finding out, but it is a middle ground. Can't compare it to AA and TWA, not even in the same ballpark.



Then why should the USAir guys accept anything you find to your advantage? Your argument just wants to put USAir guys under you for furlough protection. Half of the USAir guys are retiring in five years. That is lots of furlough protection. But you have to have the vision to look beyond next year.


IMHO, USAir folks should find a way to seperate themselves from America West and find another partner if you can't treat them right.

Since that won't happen it looks like my postulate is correct...Don't stay at an ailing airline because of hope for a turn around or favorable merger. Neither is likely or ever as good as promised. Don't just wait and walk away near the end, run away as soon as you can.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Once again, America West must have seen something they like about USAir when they went ahead with the merger. Now you have to deal with the consequences of your successful bid for the them.


On second thought, no you don't. You can just keep on arguing, or negotiating as you guys like to call it, until everyone is exhausted and unhappy.......What a mess.

 

[flyingitalian]

I'm High? Good argument. DOH is long standing precedent. Not perfect as you guys are finding out, but it is a middle ground. Can't compare it to AA and TWA, not even in the same ballpark.

I dont have a dog in this fight, so dont get me wrong. However I think ALPA has set itself all over the board on mergers. I think a relative example is the Pan Am - National merger of long ago, either way there will be unhappy pilots on both sides.

Best of luck.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

When SWA acquired Morris Air I believe Southwest pay protected the Morris Captains while putting them at the bottom. So....SWA guys like me really can't throw stones here, even though I wasn't at SWA when that happened.


Sorry if I'm too cranky today. I just don't want to see the USAir guys take it in the shorts....again.

Someone is not going to make Captain when they otherwise would. There should be a way to pay protect some of those folks.

Can someone tell me about all the fences at NWA? Didn't they put all sorts of restrictions on their merged pilots??

 

[TWA Dude]

Once again, America West must have seen something they like about USAir when they went ahead with the merger. Now you have to deal with the consequences of your successful bid for the them.

Consequences of our bid? You forget that Doug Parker and BOD made this thing happen, not the pilots. My guess is that had a vote of AWA pilots been conducted it wouldn't have passed. The only consequences I'll accept is the arbitrator's or the unlikely possibility that our merger committees come to an agreement.

 

[Green]

IMHO, USAir folks should find a way to seperate themselves from America West and find another partner if you can't treat them right.

.

Yeah I'm sure that would work out real well for them. Who knows maybe ual will try to tie up with the titanic again? Then the airways guys can re-start the rhetoric about how they are going to bid left seat of the 744. What a joke.

I say we should take the number 1 Us Airways pilot and staple him below the most junior AWA guy. That seems fair to me. The US Airways pilots' carreers have already been ruined so why should we have to screw up 1800 more career expectations...? I've got 35 years left and I want at least 30 of them to be in the left seat of a widebody....lol....

Arguing merger policy on the internet is pointless, but it's a great way to get the blood flowing.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

I'mmmm Baaaack

Just when I thought I was finished with this thread....

How many guys at the Former USAir will retire in 5 years? Since their date of hire is from '89 and earlier, I think it will be at least half. I heard all will be retired in under 10 years.

You heard wrong.

Integrating by date of hire will not hurt too badly.

Yeah, It won't hurt you too badly. You don't even work here. Am I supposed to say "Gee, FlyBoeingJets makes a really good point when he says it wont hurt too badly. I guess DOH isn't such a bad deal after all"???

Your above quote just destryoed your credibility.

Nice try trying to take advantage of the USAir guys by saying you "saved" USAir.

There are only a very few AWA pilots that I have spoken to that think that a staple is even remotely fair. Yet I have spoken to many US Airways pilots...here and face to face...who think that DOH, which is essentially a staple of the AWA pilots, is completely fair. And you have the balls to say that we are trying to take advantage of these guys???

I invite you to do a Google search using the key words America West Airlines+US Airways+Aquiring. You will find several articles written by financial experts at the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, and many other credible financial news sources that clearly spell out the fact that AWA aquired US Airways.

USAir has a lot of international out of some very good airports.

And with a relative integration and some reasonable fences they will still have that international flying out of those "very good airports". BTW, would you please define very good airport??

If it was such a bad deal to merge, why did you do it? Surely you saw some benefit to America West in combining the companies.

We had no say in it.

This will come as shock...but TWA Dude is right when he says that if the vote had been put to the AWA pilots it would not likely have passed. I would say that it definately would not have passed. I have spoken to many AWA people and the reactions are all the same: "Anyone but US Airways" and "Is Parker crazy" and "WTF?" I don't know any AWA people that are happy about this merger.

If they were a good airline we wouldn't have been able to afford them.

Now the guys on furlough, that is the tough cookie to crack. I think many will not come back.

How do you know?? What if they all come back?? What then?? You have no idea what they will do. To say that many of them will not come back is pure speculation.

Those that do deserve a medal for loyalty. Don't you think they deserve a good deal of some sort?? Not date of hire but something.

Loyalty??? Ha!! I'm sorry but that is one of the most rediculous statements I have heard.

There was a US Airways furlough in my new hire class. Where was his loyalty?

I've actually heard US Airways furloughs say that they "made the ultimate sacrifice". Huh??? Those guys were the sacrifice. I can assure you that if they had been given the choice of being furloughed or keeping their jobs they would have kept their jobs.

I don't owe these people anything.

I'm High? Good argument. DOH is long standing precedent. Not perfect as you guys are finding out, but it is a middle ground. Can't compare it to AA and TWA, not even in the same ballpark.

I don't give a rats behind what precedent was set by XYZ airlines back in 1974.

Are you nuts??? DOH in this aquisition is not even close to "middle ground".

Then why should the USAir guys accept anything you find to your advantage? Your argument just wants to put USAir guys under you for furlough protection. Half of the USAir guys are retiring in five years. That is lots of furlough protection.

Where are you getting these retirement numbers???

But you have to have the vision to look beyond next year.

Yeah, I do have the vision to look beyond next year. I envision myself being hosed for the next 30 years by a pilot group that was flying for an airline that was about to go out of business until AWA aquired them.

IMHO, USAir folks should find a way to seperate themselves from America West and find another partner if you can't treat them right.

That would be fine with us. We didn't want this aquisition in the first place.

When SWA acquired Morris Air I believe Southwest pay protected the Morris Captains while putting them at the bottom. So....SWA guys like me really can't throw stones here, even though I wasn't at SWA when that happened.

This is the wisest statement you've made regarding this aquisition.

I don't care who makes more or less money than me. What I care about is losing my seniority and quality of life to someone who isn't even employed right now.

Sorry if I'm too cranky today. I just don't want to see the USAir guys take it in the shorts....again.

So I should take it in the shorts??




I have to take a break now. My typing fingers are hurting (i.e. my pointer fingers.)

 

[joevollers]

Qoute by FlyBoeingJets--

IMHO, USAir folks should find a way to seperate themselves from America West and find another partner if you can't treat them right.

Since that won't happen it looks like my postulate is correct...Don't stay at an ailing airline because of hope for a turn around or favorable merger. Neither is likely or ever as good as promised. Don't just wait and walk away near the end, run away as soon as you can.[/quote]
End Quote


FBJ..

IMHO, to think that USair could separate themselves from AmWest right now means that you very well could believe that the hole in the ground in my backyard may very well be your arse... All the USAirways execs are gone..
The individual corps no longer exist..

It's funny---- I checked your posts to see if you have a history(like I) of engaging your typing skills before your brain engages but you don't seem to.. except on this issue; where you seem to think that we AWA pilots should concede that ALPA merger policy would yeild us too good a deal, so we should give them DOH w/out arbitration.

 

[joevollers]

I'm High? Good argument.

Not an argument so much as observation...

DOH is long standing precedent.

Not at all mentioned in ALPA Merger Policy

Then why should the USAir guys accept anything you find to your advantage? Your argument just wants to put USAir guys under you for furlough protection.

Well.. I'm about 30 #'s from the Bottom at AWA and "MY ARGUMENT" of a ratioed combination of lists would in fact put an additional 42 guys or so underneath me.. Not fair... Then I guess they should have listened to your fabulous advice of..

Since that won't happen it looks like my postulate is correct...Don't stay at an ailing airline because of hope for a turn around or favorable merger. Neither is likely or ever as good as promised. Don't just wait and walk away near the end, run away as soon as you can.

Because we all got into this industry not for Philly to Frankfurt.. But Rather..PHX-SNA-LAS-DAL-AMA. Those AMA overnights and 7 leg days are why I chose to become a pilot

 

[flybywire]

Fly-n-hi

Just curious since you just keep posting your wrong when someone references how many retirements the usair side has coming up do you know how many they have retiring in 5 years? 10 years? compared to the awa side?

 

[Green]

that all could change rapidly if the age 60 rule is bumped back five years....

 

[Crzipilot]

retirement numbers:

US(tot) cum % AWA cum % US (active)cum %

2006 158 158 3.29% 2006 34 34 1.81% 2006 112 112 4.11%
2007 228 386 8.03% 2007 43 77 4.10% 2007 169 281 10.32%
2008 177 563 11.71% 2008 46 123 6.56% 2008 143 424 15.57%
2009 232 795 16.54% 2009 47 170 9.06% 2009 185 609 22.36%
2010 194 989 20.58% 2010 52 222 11.83% 2010 163 772 28.34%
2011 246 1235 25.70% 2011 44 266 14.18% 2011 191 963 35.35%
2012 267 1502 31.25% 2012 65 331 17.64% 2012 214 1177 43.21%
2013 283 1785 37.14% 2013 51 382 20.36% 2013 220 1397 51.28%
2014 289 2074 43.15% 2014 77 459 24.47% 2014 231 1628 59.77%
2015 289 2363 49.17% 2015 69 528 28.14% 2015 206 1834 67.33%
2016 292 2655 55.24% 2016 68 596 31.77% 2016 185 2019 74.12%
2017 255 2910 60.55% 2017 66 662 35.29% 2017 159 2178 79.96%
2018 261 3171 65.98% 2018 85 747 39.82% 2018 162 2340 85.90%
2019 209 3380 70.33% 2019 78 825 43.98% 2019 112 2452 90.01%
2020 222 3602 74.95% 2020 88 913 48.67% 2020 113 2565 94.16%

 

[Crzipilot]

that all could change rapidly if the age 60 rule is bumped back five years....

sure it will change, but the ratio of AWA to US retirements won't. In addition, not everyone wants to fly till 65, there's some that are close to retirement that are against the change. Anyways as comparison, from the active list US and AWA the 5/10/15 yr comparison is such.....

5yr US: 963 35%
AWA: 266 14%

10yr US: 2019 74%
AWA: 596 31%

15yr US: 2638 97%
AWA: 1003 54%


US including those furloughed:

5yr 1235 25%
10yr 2655 55%
15yr 3770 78%

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Fly-n-hi

Just curious since you just keep posting your wrong when someone references how many retirements the usair side has coming up do you know how many they have retiring in 5 years? 10 years? compared to the awa side?

See post above. Anymore questions?

 

[flybywire]

Crzipilot
Thanks for the numbers and the professional response to a question.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Why not allow US east captains who are displaced to FO return to their seats (with base fences) before allowing upgrades from either side? Then slot based on longevity. Sure a US capt may be bidding junior to an AWA capt based on DOH, but he's back in his seat. When the reinstatements are done, new upgrades would be on a slotted basis which prevents a de-facto staple job to the AWA FO's.

 

[abefly]

How about not....Why should my upgrade be postponed so that a US air guy can get back a seat that he never would have had if it wasn't for us merging with them?? Im tired of all these ideas people have to try and help the US Air guys out! The furloughed guys will be hired back to the bottom of the senority list and if they can upgrade before they retire then so be it. Ther would not have been a captain slot at all for the current captains flying as f.os if it weren't for the merger. They are lucky to have a job still. So am I for that matter. The America west folks never wanted this merger to happen. As it is I have been on reserve for a year longer that expected due to the merger. We were supposed to hire 300 in 2005. And the hiring was to continue. The arbitrator will slot the two lists per alpa laws and the furloughs will be hired back on the bottom of the list. Alpa can't even do anything to represent the furloughees because they don't pay dues!!I can guarantee you parker doesn't want the furloughs back because they all have longevity and it would be cheaper to bring in new pilots off the street.

 

[Swaayze]

sorry, unconstructive. nevermind.

 

[Lampshade]

Why not allow US east captains who are displaced to FO return to their seats (with base fences) before allowing upgrades from either side? Then slot based on longevity. Sure a US capt may be bidding junior to an AWA capt based on DOH, but he's back in his seat. When the reinstatements are done, new upgrades would be on a slotted basis which prevents a de-facto staple job to the AWA FO's.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think EVERY pilot currently at USAir was a Captain. Thats a lot of dudes to hold back from upgrade.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Why not allow US east captains who are displaced to FO return to their seats (with base fences) before allowing upgrades from either side? Then slot based on longevity. Sure a US capt may be bidding junior to an AWA capt based on DOH, but he's back in his seat. When the reinstatements are done, new upgrades would be on a slotted basis which prevents a de-facto staple job to the AWA FO's.

Why don't we all sit back,let the merger process run its course and see what the arbitrator comes up with,OK? (and make no mistake,kiddies this IS how the new senority list will be put together. I'll be shocked if it pans out any other way). All this speculation is doing nothing more than creating a lot of ill will on both sides of the fence


PHXFLYR

 

[Lampshade]

On a side note when will US West begin to hire/recall? Seems like it keeps getting pushed back. Whats the latest? Anyone....

 

[jetfo]

The arbitrator will slot the two lists per alpa laws and the furloughs will be hired back on the bottom of the list. Alpa can't even do anything to represent the furloughees because they don't pay dues!!I can guarantee you parker doesn't want the furloughs back because they all have longevity and it would be cheaper to bring in new pilots off the street.

Parker may not want the furloughees back, but I don't think he has a choice or a vote in the matter.

 

[jetfo]

Besides, two thirds of the furloughees have less than 3 years with AAA and the vast majority will not come back anyway since they have relatively little longevity invested at AAA.

 

[jetfo]

Why don't we all sit back,let the merger process run its course and see what the arbitrator comes up with,OK?
PHXFLYR

Phxflyr:
Do you know why it takes so long to get this heard by the/an arbitrator?

 

[PHXFLYR]

Phxflyr:
Do you know why it takes so long to get this heard by the/an arbitrator?

Yes. Basically it comes down to 2 things,from what I understand. First is ALPA Merger Policy. This policy has various steps such as seniority list certification,face to face negotiations with your Merger comittee counterparts from the other carrier,(in this case USAir),mediation if these negotiations bog down and finally arbitration. Each step of the process is allocated a certain number of days (forgot exactly how many) and may be extended at the discretion of ALPA's President. The second item is the availability of the arbitrator that was recently chosen by both the AWA and USAir Merger Comittees. His first available opening was Dec 2006,recently moved up to Oct 2006,should this go to binding arbitration.(which is my guess as to how the seniority intergration and the new seniority list will be decided.) Hope this answers your question.


PHXFLYR

 

[gutshotdraw]

Yeah, we know how well face-to-face integration talks go. Some of the ground worker unions had a fist fight a week or two back. I guess the hockey game broke out later.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Yeah, we know how well face-to-face integration talks go. Some of the ground worker unions had a fist fight a week or two back. I guess the hockey game broke out later.

The "PHL Phistfight" you mention in your post did not happen during face to face negotiations. It happened during a representaion drive between the IAM and TWU . Two entirely different things. Might want to try to get your facts straight next time.

PHXFLYR

 

[Bringupthebird]

Why don't we all sit back,let the merger process run its course and see what the arbitrator comes up with,OK? (and make no mistake,kiddies this IS how the new senority list will be put together. I'll be shocked if it pans out any other way). All this speculation is doing nothing more than creating a lot of ill will on both sides of the fence

Regardless of the solution, you better be prepared for many years of ill will, that's how mergers go. A solution that simultaneously spreads the pain while sticking somewhat closely to current contracts (like the reinstatement clause in Filling Of Vacancies) may mitigate some of that.

Also, the future may well hold circumstances that affect different seniority levels differently and screwing one group now may allow that group eat it's cold revenge later, when their support may be crucial. The unity ship for the FA's has sailed due to strict adhearance to DOH. They will be living with the screwing of the AWA people for years.

 

[gutshotdraw]

The "PHL Phistfight" you mention in your post did not happen during face to face negotiations. It happened during a representaion drive between the IAM and TWU . Two entirely different things. Might want to try to get your facts straight next time.

PHXFLYR

The fact that any union event resulted in fisticuffs is a sad commentary on this industry in general and this merged carrier in particular.

By the way, I'm on your side in the integration. I hope you make Captain before the integration is complete because I don't think it's going to go well for the Cactus guys.