AWA/US Air --integration plan

[accinelli]

Going forward what is the integration plan for AWA/US Air.

Specifically -

Are the seniority lists going to be combined

What payrate is going to be the norm (USAir or AWA)

 

[TWA Dude]

Are the seniority lists going to be combined

A search on this topic here will reveal much and I recommend you do so. The short of it: yes. If our respective merger committees can't come to an integration agreement it will be sent to binding arbitration. The Arbitrator (Nicholau) isn't available until December so the earliest he would rule is around a year from now.

What payrate is going to be the norm (USAir or AWA)

A new joint contract is being negotiated as we speak and is expected to be completed this summer. It will not be implemented, however, until both the seniority is settled and our operations are combined in 2007. JMHO but I'm not expecting a signficant pay raise on the AWA side. The USA guys will get a raise by virtue of coming up to our pay.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Going forward what is the integration plan for AWA/US Air.

Specifically -

Are the seniority lists going to be combined(USAir or AWA)

See ALPA Merger Policy

Tejas

 

[kjokmo]

See ALPA Merger Policy

Tejas

I just read the Alpa merger policy from my old TWA manual....Alpa says to screw the little guy. But I think we all knew that by now.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I just read the Alpa merger policy from my old TWA manual....Alpa says to screw the little guy. But I think we all knew that by now.

What paragraph is that?

I think it actually says the two sides should try to get along and work it out fairly. If they can't, they hire an arbitrator who screws everybody.

Moral: Cooperate or let your mommy decide.

 

[Golden Falcon]

On the entertainment side of things, last time USAir or whatever merged with an airline the ops toilet walls were covered with all kind of seniority squabble admonitions like...

"date of hire, or just like empire"
Piedmont pilots now have to wear shoes"
Spit-cans are not to be left behind by out-going crews...

hope the silly side of it takes the edge off of the inevitable fight that is on the way....good luck to my "cactus friends" sad to see a great name disappear....

 

[Saabslime]

It's kind of hard to cooperate with a group who's not being even a little bit reasonable as to their (AAA) expectations with this integration.

Every airline pilot knows that their seniority at one airline doesn't mean jack at another airline. For some reason the AAA side believes since they've been around longer and have made huge sacrifices (who hasn't), that they should be entitled to DOH for this integration. It's time for them to get over themselves and realize that this is a whole new airline and the only fair and reasonable way to integrate the seniority lists is on a relative seniority basis.

 

[FR8mastr]

No, I disagree it should be DOH with fences high enough to protect the west pilots from being hosed. in 10 years the vast majority of the East pilots will be out to pasture and the west pilots will be the senior group. This way no body gets screwed. What is the problem with nobody getting screwed?

 

[ironspud]

Here's a good motto: "Hired. Not acquired".

 

[RUhiring?]

Career expectations....

Some of us furloughed guys at US have better progression expectations than the guys at AWA. Simply by virtue of the large number of upcoming retirements. I believe ALPA merger policy is based on career expectation.

So...if East were to be left alone, I would retire at #2 on the seniority list flying an A330 for the last several years. Will this be what I get after the lists are merged? Doubtful.

USAir merged seniority lists with PSA.....it was DOH
USAir merged seniority lists with Piedmont.....it was DOH
US Airways merged seniority lists with US Airways Shuttle.....US Airways pilots wanted DOH....but Shuttle wouldn't go for that.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

No, I disagree it should be DOH with fences high enough to protect the west pilots from being hosed. in 10 years the vast majority of the East pilots will be out to pasture and the west pilots will be the senior group. This way no body gets screwed. What is the problem with nobody getting screwed?

With DOH and ten year fences who gets screwed??? I do...in ten years. Just about all US Airways pilots, including the furloughs, are senior to the bottom third of our seniority list. DOH is not acceptable.

Who gets screwed if we use relative integration with fences? Relative integration with the furloughs being recalled at the bottom of the new list is the only fair way do do it.

This way there is no windfall to either group and everyone's career expectations remain unchanged. All the active pilots would remain in their current seats and equipment and would advance (uppgrade and switch equipment) normally. And the furloughs would get recalled at the bottom of the new list. The career expectation for a furlough is to be recalled at the bottom of the list. With relative integration nothing will have changed for anyone.

BTW...there will not be 10 year fences. Management will not agree to that.

Tell me where DOH preserves the career expectations of the AWA pilots? Or tell how DOH is not a windfall to the AAA pilots?

Every argument I have read in favor DOH does not include any talk of ALPA merger policy points. Usually the arguments are "AAA has been around longer", or "I've been here 10 years, why should I be junior to a 3 year AWA pilot", or "we have a bunch of guys retiring soon so we should have DOH". These arguments are not backed up by ALPA merger policy and reflect a "how can I get the most out of this" attitude.

Relative integration follows the merger policy much more closely than DOH and it is certainly difficult to argue with the fairness of relative integration. Oh sure, all the furloughs are salivating at the chance to be recalled in front of a couple of hundred of AWA guys but the furlough's career expectation is clearly to be recalled at the bottom of the list.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Career expectations....

Some of us furloughed guys at US have better progression expectations than the guys at AWA. Simply by virtue of the large number of upcoming retirements. I believe ALPA merger policy is based on career expectation.

So...if East were to be left alone, I would retire at #2 on the seniority list flying an A330 for the last several years. Will this be what I get after the lists are merged? Doubtful.

USAir merged seniority lists with PSA.....it was DOH
USAir merged seniority lists with Piedmont.....it was DOH
US Airways merged seniority lists with US Airways Shuttle.....US Airways pilots wanted DOH....but Shuttle wouldn't go for that.

I'm going to be #2 or #3 on our list for the last several years of my career. Will DOH preserve that career expectation that I have? Sounds to me like we have the exact same expectation. But in reality we didn't, or don't.

You would be flying the A330 for the last several years? Really? Do you have a crystal ball that lets you see into the future? Many people in the financial world believed that you would be out of business in the next year or so. Now I'm not saying that AWA is your savior but the truth is without this merger AAA would have been in much deeper doo-doo.

What I am saying is that one could put up a very convincing argument that this merger benifits the AAA people much much more than it benifits the AWA people. According to financial analysts who know more about business than you or I US Airways would probably have gone under without this merger. There was no talk about AWA going under.

Again, I'm not saying that we "saved you" or that we should get a better seniority deal because AWA aquired you but I am saying that your career expectations were quite a bit lower that you thought they were.

And even if they weren't why do you think that it's a bigger deal that you would be #2 at US Airways as opposed to my being #2 at AWA??? I could be wrong but it sounds like the "we fly bigger planes so I should get a better deal" argument.

And not to be offensive...but your furloughed...which means that you don't have a career right now.

 

[scoreboard]

Career expectations....

Some of us furloughed guys at US have better progression expectations than the guys at AWA.

As a neutral observer, I disagree. I think it was pretty clear the career expectation of a US Air pilot was the unemployment line... I know because of the three in my class at swa, lowest time guy at US Air; 18 years .

 

[TWA Dude]

No, I disagree it should be DOH with fences high enough to protect the west pilots from being hosed.

I would agree with that logic were it not for the fact that during times of furlough fences are irrelevant. Furloughs go by reverse seniority, period. The TWA/AA integration tought us the lesson that shrinkage must be considered as well as growth scenarios. DOH basically staples 2/3 of the AWA list to USA, ergo, 2/3 of the AWA list would get furloughed (including captains, of course) before the next USA FO would get it. I'll leave to you to decide whether that constitutes a windfall.

break

I know it's fun to debate terms like "windfall" and "career expectations" but the fact is these are subjective ideas. That's why I don't get bent outta shape when a USA guy demands DOH. If I were on his side I'd want my Merger Committee to demand no less. It's called a bargaining position. My contact on the AWA Merger Committee says the USA guys are just as smart as we are so I know they'll have realistic expectations. But if they don't then that's what the arbitrator is for.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

I would agree with that logic were it not for the fact that during times of furlough fences are irrelevant. Furloughs go by reverse seniority, period. The TWA/AA integration tought us the lesson that shrinkage must be considered as well as growth scenarios. DOH basically staples 2/3 of the AWA list to USA, ergo, 2/3 of the AWA list would get furloughed (including captains, of course) before the next USA FO would get it. I'll leave to you to decide whether that constitutes a windfall.

break

I know it's fun to debate terms like "windfall" and "career expectations" but the fact is these are subjective ideas. That's why I don't get bent outta shape when a USA guy demands DOH. If I were on his side I'd want my Merger Committee to demand no less. It's called a bargaining position. My contact on the AWA Merger Committee says the USA guys are just as smart as we are so I know they'll have realistic expectations. But if they don't then that's what the arbitrator is for.

So by your own admission and logic you spoke to our merger people and demanded no less than a staple of the AAA people? Or at least you expected that, right?

To say that you want your merger people to show up to the table and ask for the world is rediculous. When the AAA guys asked for DOH, the Hawaii flying, and recall of the furloughs in seniority order all they did was irritate all the AWA people. The result of those demands made most AWA pilots mad and put us in a defensive posture.

When a group comes to the table, especially when that group was on the verge of going out of business, and asks for unrealistic items they lose credibility. They cause the other group to become suspicious and not take them seriously.

This is not called barganing position. It's insanity by definition (look it up).

I, and the vast majority of people I fly with are perfectly happy with the relative integration idea. The thought of walking into the negotiations and even suggesting a staple is absurd to us. Its like your looking for a fight when you do that. But you think this is a good idea?

Just because that's they way negotiating was done in the past does not mean it's a good or smart idea. Wouldn't you rather see the two groups come together and say "Here is what we think is realistic" instead of asking for unrealistic items?

Also, terms like windfall and career expectations are subjective. What isn't? DOH? Staple? If there were terms in the ALPA policy that weren't subjective then we wouldn't need to sit down at the table and negotiate. Its all subjective.

But the bottom line is that we are going to show up and make a proposal. That proposal, like all proposals, like their proposal, will be based on subjective terms. So we better be able to articulate our position and explain why we believe that our subjective proposal is the way it should be. This is why some of us get "bent out of shape".

What your point is about terms being subjective I'm not really sure. To brush something off because you deem it subjective seems a bit hard to comprehend.

BTW...your "contact" is KH, right?

 

[FR8mastr]

With DOH and ten year fences who gets screwed??? I do...in ten years. Just about all US Airways pilots, including the furloughs, are senior to the bottom third of our seniority list. DOH is not acceptable.

What are you talking about in 10 years most of the east guys are retired

Who gets screwed if we use relative integration with fences? Relative integration with the furloughs being recalled at the bottom of the new list is the only fair way do do it.

The 18 year guys at East get screwed, they will be pulling gear for someone hired last summer

This way there is no windfall to either group and everyone's career expectations remain unchanged. All the active pilots would remain in their current seats and equipment and would advance (uppgrade and switch equipment) normally. And the furloughs would get recalled at the bottom of the new list. The career expectation for a furlough is to be recalled at the bottom of the list. With relative integration nothing will have changed for anyone.

That sounds great but the 15 year furloughed guys are being recalled now, so why dont their "career expectations" count


Tell me where DOH preserves the career expectations of the AWA pilots? Or tell how DOH is not a windfall to the AAA pilots?

no windfall because the fence will keep the senior airways guys from being any factor in the West guys life. IE if you are a capt in the airbus, guess what you are still a capt. in the airbus. Your carreer expectation at West was to be a airbus capt.? this will not change. What will change is now, after the fence is down (when the East guys are retired) your new expectation is to be a captain on the 330

Every argument I have read in favor DOH does not include any talk of ALPA merger policy points. Usually the arguments are "AAA has been around longer", or "I've been here 10 years, why should I be junior to a 3 year AWA pilot", or "we have a bunch of guys retiring soon so we should have DOH". These arguments are not backed up by ALPA merger policy and reflect a "how can I get the most out of this" attitude.

Fine look at the career expectation of a East pilot vs. a West, if you use this argument then I guess the West guys should never be able to bid the widebodies.

Relative integration follows the merger policy much more closely than DOH and it is certainly difficult to argue with the fairness of relative integration. Oh sure, all the furloughs are salivating at the chance to be recalled in front of a couple of hundred of AWA guys but the furlough's career expectation is clearly to be recalled at the bottom of the list.

And how is this not a windfall for the West guys?

Be carefull what you wish for, Parker himself has hinted at more merger activity.

 

[On Your Six]

Merge the lists on a % basis: if you are in the top 10% of USAirways or AWA, you should be in the top 10% of the combined airline. On top of that, have fences around hubs - no USAirways guy can bid PHX and vice versa for X number of years. USAirways guys get the A330 while AWA guys get the Hawaii-bound 757s for X years... That seems fair to me...

 

[ironspud]

So by your own admission and logic you spoke to our merger people and demanded no less than a staple of the AAA people? Or at least you expected that, right?

Good Heavens!! How did you get that out of what TWA Dude said.

 

[TWA Dude]

So by your own admission and logic you spoke to our merger people and demanded no less than a staple of the AAA people? Or at least you expected that, right?

Uh, no, I've demanded nothing from them.

To say that you want your merger people to show up to the table and ask for the world is rediculous.

Point of fact, no negotiating has occured yet. The DOH sabre-rattling over there is pretty much for internal consumption.

When the AAA guys asked for DOH, the Hawaii flying, and recall of the furloughs in seniority order all they did was irritate all the AWA people. The result of those demands made most AWA pilots mad and put us in a defensive posture.

And we weren't in a "defensive posture" before?

When a group comes to the table, especially when that group was on the verge of going out of business, and asks for unrealistic items they lose credibility.

First, that's their problem and not ours. Why would you get bent outta shape over their bargaining strategy? Second, I reiterate that no actual negotiations have taken place yet. Neither side has made any real, formal proposal. (And yes, I remember that "dream list" our side presented. That can't be considered seriously.)

I, and the vast majority of people I fly with are perfectly happy with the relative integration idea. The thought of walking into the negotiations and even suggesting a staple is absurd to us. Its like your looking for a fight when you do that. But you think this is a good idea?

I don't concern myself with their strategy. And for the record I support some form of relative seniority with fences.

Also, terms like windfall and career expectations are subjective. What isn't? DOH? Staple? If there were terms in the ALPA policy that weren't subjective then we wouldn't need to sit down at the table and negotiate. Its all subjective.

What, do I need you to make my point for me? That's what I said. That's why it's silly to debate integration schemes on message boards and why I don't.

So we better be able to articulate our position and explain why we believe that our subjective proposal is the way it should be.

You go right on ahead. I choose not to.

What your point is about terms being subjective I'm not really sure. To brush something off because you deem it subjective seems a bit hard to comprehend.

Well, you see, I've been through a seniority integration before. The APA got to impose the terms and then tell us they felt it was "fair". Who wouldn't get their blood boiling over that kind of arrogance? I'm not that arrogant which is why I choose not to tell USA why I feel the integration should go a certain way.

BTW...your "contact" is KH, right?

Yup, you've outted the former TWA guy on our Merger Committee. Good for you.

 

[A350]

The problem with "relative" position is that a younger, more junior pilot (generally AWA) will survive the retirement of an older, more senior pilot (generally U) while the older pilot who is stuck junior to a younger pilot will never see anywhere near his rightful position.

Career expectations are fleeting. Ask anyone who left AWA for U several years ago. Sacrifices are also not equitable. The U guys gave up a hell of a lot more to survive and help make a "merger" possible. Without U, AWA has one hell of a time surviving and vice versa. At least that was the opinion of the financial gurus.

Take a step back and see what happens.

A350

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Without U, AWA has one hell of a time surviving and vice versa. At least that was the opinion of the financial gurus.

Take a step back and see what happens.

A350

Who said that? Cite your source.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Good Heavens!! How did you get that out of what TWA Dude said.

Re-read his post. He is saying that if was a US East guy he would expect his people to ask for date of hire. So is he saying that he thinks our guys should ask for a staple?

I'm asking him if he approached our guys and asked them to submit a staple. It makes sense if you read it a bit more carefully.

 

[TWA Dude]

He is saying that if was a US East guy he would expect his people to ask for date of hire. So is he saying that he thinks our guys should ask for a staple?

No, I'm saying that I'm not offended by a bargaining position for DOH. On the surface DOH doesn't sound offensive; one needs to look at the numbers to see what DOH really means. Staple means exactly what it sounds like and it sounds offensive because it is. In any case I feel no need to advise our Merger Committee.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Uh, no, I've demanded nothing from them.

Yeah. That's my point. You say "if I was on the east side I would want this...". Fine, but you're on the west side. What do you expect our people to do? With that logic I have to assume you want them to propose a staple.

Point of fact, no negotiating has occured yet.

Yes, and when it does we better be able to articulate our positions and not let ourselves get screwed.

The DOH sabre-rattling over there is pretty much for internal consumption.

Ok

And we weren't in a "defensive posture" before?

Are you trying to tell me that when US East proposes DOH that that had no negative impacts on the AWA group? Get real. That raised the "pissed off" meter sever notches.

First, that's their problem and not ours. Why would you get bent outta shape over their bargaining strategy?

We're trying to keep it from being our problem. Why get bent outta shape over their strategy? WTF?? Becuase their stategy, thus far, is to basically staple us to the bottom...that's why. They asked for DOH and DOH is a staple for AWA. Maybe they don't really think they can get it...but they're asking for it. I have to take that seriously.

Second, I reiterate that no actual negotiations have taken place yet. Neither side has made any real, formal proposal. (And yes, I remember that "dream list" our side presented. That can't be considered seriously.)

Again, you better show up to the table with an articulated argument. I can assure you they will. What would you do...sit at the table hold hands and sing kumbai-ya??

I don't concern myself with their strategy.

Well then it's a good thing you're not on our negotiating commitee.

And for the record I support some form of relative seniority with fences.

Fine.

What, do I need you to make my point for me? That's what I said. That's why it's silly to debate integration schemes on message boards and why I don't.

You totally missed my point. I will try to make it clearer to you. All of the decisions are ultimately going to be made based on subjetive material i.e. someones opinion. It's either going to be ours, theirs, or the arbitrators. It will most likely come down to the arbitrator who will use subjective info that he has gathered from the opposing sides. Now don't you think it makes sense to present a clear and convicing arguement like in court???

You're comment about terms being subjective made zero sense. It's like you're saying that if something is subjective then it looses credibility. To be honest I have no idea what your point was. We live in a world where 90% of everything we hear is subjective.

You go right on ahead. I choose not to.

Good. That's probably better for the rest of us.

Well, you see, I've been through a seniority integration before. The APA got to impose the terms and then tell us they felt it was "fair". Who wouldn't get their blood boiling over that kind of arrogance? I'm not that arrogant which is why I choose not to tell USA why I feel the integration should go a certain way.

Because it's going to affect our careers that's why. It's one thing to want a fair integration. It's something else to demand some DOH or Staple...where someone will clearly get screwed.

Rest assured that many of them would like to lay their terms on you.

Having been through the TWA/AA merger doesn't make you an authority on mergers. I know many TWA people that would not agree with your comments. In fact, I have had discussions based on comments from you with several of them and they are not sure where you are coming from.

Yup, you've outted the former TWA guy on our Merger Committee. Good for you.

No need to be a prick. I was just curious if that was who you were talking about.



I'll be back in 4 days. See ya.

 

[vetrider]

No, I'm saying that I'm not offended by a bargaining position for DOH. On the surface DOH doesn't sound offensive; one needs to look at the numbers to see what DOH really means. Staple means exactly what it sounds like and it sounds offensive because it is. In any case I feel no need to advise our Merger Committee.

In my opinion, "on the surface" here doesn't count. Both east and west know EXACTLY what doh means. Yes, it is offensive.

 

[A350]

Face it, this was a merger, not a buyout. The two CEO's used other peoples money to finance this venture.

Back to the original topic.....

A furloughed U pilot has the "expectation" to be recalled to the bottom of the list and therefore to gain seniority based on the "retirement" schedule ahead of him/her on the U list plus any growth. Anything other that a DOH situation would put them behind additional AWA guys that won't be retiring any time soon and this would put them at an additional disadvantage. AWA pilots had the expectation that they would move up the list based on their retirements and any growth. There was no expectation that an AWA pilot would get the chance to fly an additional 250 airframes ahead of the U pilots that brought the airframes to the table. Not to mention the international flying and the widebodies. Conversely, the U pilot should not be able to gain the flying the 162 AWA airframes do ahead of the AWA group.

The U pilots aren't interested in going to PHX and screwing anyone who has a job. But they have sacrificed way too much to end up on the short end of the list. There should be fences that protect each groups flying. Ten years would do it as by then fully half the U list will be gone and everyone left will benefit.

A350

 

[FoxHunter]

I've been through two mergers. Seaboard World/Flying Tigers 1980, FedEx/Flying Tigers 1989. Both settled in arbitration by ratio. The biggest difference was that Arbitrator Seibel used positions available at the date of merger. Arbitrator Nicholau used a future date because of all the aircraft FedEx had on order to the disadvantage of Tiger pilots. Hired Seaboard 7/14/69 merged late 73' group at Tigers. At FedEx I believe the guy one number senior to me was last guy hired 1981.

I would expect to see a ratio based on positions brought to the merger and type of flying. Possible advantage to senior USAIR, probable staple for furloughed USAIR.

 

[TWA Dude]

Yes, and when it does we better be able to articulate our positions and not let ourselves get screwed.

When you say "we" you mean our Merger Committee and when I say "we" I mean you and me. Our committees should be debating this stuff. I submit there's no point in us doing so on the internet.

Are you trying to tell me that when US East proposes DOH that that had no negative impacts on the AWA group? Get real. That raised the "pissed off" meter sever notches.

It pisses you and others off only because you're looking for things to be pissed off about.

Again, you better show up to the table with an articulated argument. I can assure you they will. What would you do...sit at the table hold hands and sing kumbai-ya??

Of course. Once again you're talking about committees and I'm talking about internet message boards.

Well then it's a good thing you're not on our negotiating commitee.

I can say the same about you. You sound like a hothead and not a negotiator.

You totally missed my point. I will try to make it clearer to you. All of the decisions are ultimately going to be made based on subjetive material i.e. someones opinion.

And likewise you missed my point. The whole idea of an arbitrator is to gain objectivity. You and I don't have it and neither does the USA side. I'm not going tell the USA guys that relative seniority is fair because I know they'll disagree and I see no point in arguing.

Now don't you think it makes sense to present a clear and convicing arguement like in court???

Sure. That's the Merger Committee's job, not mine or yours.

Because it's going to affect our careers that's why.

Arguing on the internet will affect out careers? Not bloody likely.

Having been through the TWA/AA merger doesn't make you an authority on mergers.

An authority, no, knowledgable, yes.

I know many TWA people that would not agree with your comments. In fact, I have had discussions based on comments from you with several of them and they are not sure where you are coming from.

And that's what makes this country great: freedom to think.

No need to be a prick. I was just curious if that was who you were talking about.

You've taken an adversial tone with me so I felt justified in responding in kind.

 

[Deadalus]

Excellent

Going forward what is the integration plan for AWA/US Air.

Specifically -

Are the seniority lists going to be combined

What payrate is going to be the norm (USAir or AWA)

Most excellent flame bait dude. I've got a beer and the popcorns a popin.

 

[Deadalus]

Swingline

1. DOH no longer in the ALPA merger policy
2. Get real, your career expectations if you had half a brain were liquidation
in about six months
3. Look at the court papers, we aquired you
4. Staple and pull my gear b!tch