Aviation degree/Non-Aviation degree

[de727ups]

Yesterday, I went to a briefing on the Central Washington U aviation program for kids who are interested in piloting careers. The head of the program, who claims to have "contacts in the industry", made the statement that it's better to have an aviation degree than a non-aviation degree...that's what the airlines are really looking for. I countered that, in my opinion, it's better to have a non-aviation degree because the airlines don't care what your degree is in and it's nice to have training in a non-aviation area to fall back on. How many furloughed pilots out there wish they had experience in another field besides flying right now? To the gentleman's credit, he did talk about the current state and cyclical nature of the aviation industry.

You sure can't predict what's going to happen 5 to 10 years down the road in aviation. The only constant I've seen in the constant change....I've been flying since 1978.

My advice is to prepare for the worst and hope for the best...a non-aviation degree is part of that thinking.

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

I agree with you, a non-aviation degree not only shows that you've diversified your interests, but also serves as a cushion during lean times.
Plus, can you really have a "college experience" while having to fly legally? (8 hour/.04 rule comes to mind here)

 

[abatista]

I would partly agree. One only difference is if you get an Engineering degree in Aviation.

 

[eriknorth]

I am working on a non-aviation degree, and I plan on flying for a living. Hopefuly it will be something to fall back on, and might come in handy as a good stepping block if I need a job to get some flying in right when I get out of college. I want to make the most out of life, and I hope that I can have a good fallback job if aviation doesn't work out. I fly on my own time outside of school using the money I make from my current job. I sometimes wonder about motivation when your education is pertaining to flying. For me, it is my treat and my break from school, not my obligation and source of stress for grades, which I think makes me work harder. What if I were to lose my medical? Non-aviation degree to the rescue!
Off to class.
eriknorth

 

[big dog1]

Which school is the best for turning in our flight certificates?

 

[flywithastick]

Think practical for a minute... when the airlines start requiring an aviation specific degree, then look at getting one. Until then, I believe you're foolish to not diversify. Getting furloughed as a pilot at some point in your career is fairly probable. You like to work? Then have a backup plan. ERAU, UND or the other "aviation colleges" don't publish their back-up plans, do they? You gonna get hired at ExxonMobil with an aviation mgmt degree? How about GM? IBM? Merck? think about it.

Get a degree in business, engineering or anything in the medical field from an accredited school.

Regarding the aviation degree in engineering - I assume you're talking about aerospace engineering. If that's absolutely what you have to have - fine. Good luck. If you want to work in the aerospace field (unless highly specialized) you can get hired with a mechanical engr degree. So when the particular project you're working on get's cut - as happens frequently - you can take your ME degree and go to work in engineering & contruction, manufacturing, semiconductors, energy, etc, etc.

After rereading the post above from abatista, I got the impression that their point was to get some aviation information or education in an engineering program. About the only thing similar between any accredited engr program and an "aviation degree" would be History 101, Economics 101, English 101... From there on, the engr coursework is almost totally analytical - calculus, physics, chemistry, mechanisms, controls, materials, fluid mechanics, thermodynamics, design. Nothing in any engr curriculum I'm familiar with would come close to how to running a flying business, managing a group of pilots, aviation regulations or similar.

 

[generaltso]

I am in favor of a aviation degree. I think, even in these trouble times, it will open the door to a lot of opportunity. But I also think that having something to fall back on is very helpful... however I don't think that just because you have a degree in something you can automatically "fall back on it". A lot of other industries right now are not looking too good, it is not just aviation.

There are other benefits to going to an aviation school other than just having that ERAU (or whatever) name plastered on your diploma. The airlines really don't give a $hit if you went to ERAU, UND, Purdue, or the local community college. Get yourself a 4 year degree, however you have to do it.

With that said, going to an aviation school will open additional doors for you... sometimes people don't think about this stuff.

Internships with airlines (not possible through non-aviation school)

Alumni network (ERAU alone has a lot of alumni throughout the aviation industry)

Making friends (this sounds gay, but the more friends you have in the aviation biz... the better)

Anyway that is my 2 cents. But I think my main point is you don't have to have a 4 year degree in basketweaving to have a good backup plan.

 

[Sphincter Boy]

I was originally enrolled in an aviation program at La Tech and decided my sophomore year that I had better not put all my eggs in one basket so I went and got a Finance degree. Looking back, it was one of the best decisions that I have made because there is no telling what could happen with this industry.

 

[greg20]

flywithastick, you said:

"Think practical for a minute... when the airlines start requiring an aviation specific degree, then look at getting one. Until then, I believe you're foolish to not diversify. Getting furloughed as a pilot at some point in your career is fairly probable. You like to work? Then have a backup plan."

I agree with you here. It's very important to have a backup plan, especially for the usual Aeronautical Science and/or Airway Science degrees that often times really aren't applicable in any other field.

flywithastick:

"ERAU, UND or the other "aviation colleges" don't publish their back-up plans, do they?"

These places are not "aviation colleges" in the same sense that schools like Sheffield School of Aeronautics are. I'm just using that one as an example, nothing personal against them of course. I believe this is what you were implying. If not, my apologies. ER is a fully accredited university with an aviation emphasis. UND is also fully accredited and aviation is just one of the offered areas of study.

flywithastick:

" You gonna get hired at ExxonMobil with an aviation mgmt degree? How about GM? IBM? Merck? think about it."


I can answer that with a resounding "yes"! An aviation management degree is not nearly as limiting as many people claim. I hold a degree in Aviation Business Administration from ERAU, and I currently have a position in this industry. My formal college education was about 85% business topics and 15% aviation-related. I'm confident that my skills are applicable in most any other business. Money is a common language no matter what the industry. Some recent information from ERAU indicates that management-related graduates were employed (or offered positions) immediately after graduation in such diverse organizations as:

Airborne Express
Bahrain Defense Force
British/Virgin Island Government
Publix
RSAF
First Officer
Salmon Air
TransMeridian Airlines
US Army
Wells Fargo

A quick glance at the alumni directory shows aviation management graduates holding management positions at BP America, Superior Electronics, Signal Corporation, Ernst & Young LLP, Operations Consulting Inc., PIC Energy Group, Southwestern Bell, etc etc.


flywithastick:

"About the only thing similar between any accredited engr program and an "aviation degree" would be History 101, Economics 101, English 101... From there on, the engr coursework is almost totally analytical - calculus, physics, chemistry, mechanisms, controls, materials, fluid mechanics, thermodynamics, design. "

Are you implying that "aviation degrees" lack accreditation? I can assure you that these degrees (aviation business admin, aeronautical/aerospace engineering) are as accredited as anything else out there. Again, if that's not what you are implying, then my apologies.


flywithastick:

"Nothing in any engr curriculum I'm familiar with would come close to how to running a flying business, managing a group of pilots, aviation regulations or similar."

Of course not. That's what a business degree is for.


generaltso:

"With that said, going to an aviation school will open additional doors for you... sometimes people don't think about this stuff.

Internships with airlines (not possible through non-aviation school"

Excellent point. ERAU facilitated 3 internships for me - one year at a successful fractional, one at an aviation museum, and another with a name-brand FBO at a large Class B airport. I'm not here to champion ERAU (or any other aviation program), and there are problems just like anywhere else, but in this case they have delivered on every promise they have made to me.

Regards,

greg20

Edited for typos.

 

[bobbysamd]

I'm probably in the minority . . . .

My degree is in Accounting, but I got it long before I started flying. Having said that, I like an aviation degree. I was always impressed with the excellent aviation education our Riddlers had. They were well schooled in a bunch of non-flying-specific areas, such as systems, flight phys, and English. I had a few issues with some of their on-campus ground school, but overall I felt they were knowledgable.

Speaking from my own training experience, instead of receiving ground school the way I did, which consisted primarily of reading books and memorizing the ASA test materials, I would have gone back to college, to ERAU or someplace, and taken a second B.S., in Aeronautical Science.

I think what matters most is that you have a degree. Having a college education in anything is always an advantage if you must look elsewhere besides aviation. Now, having said that, if you choose a non-aviation major, get it in something you like. You'll do better in school and learn better.

 

[208starcheck]

That is a very good question. Very few people I know thought that far ahead. I personally went with the finance degree and started flying. I felt I needed to diversify in case something happened that ended my flying carreer. I've seen many guys get fired or decide it's not what they thought is was going to be. I now know two guys that have been injured and were forced to look for another line of work.

I hasn't hurt me. In fact most of the guys I know never got the degree and they are doing fine. Of course they can't make it to the major if the option ever arose.

It's a decision everyone has to make for themselves but at least your thinking about it.

It's all about the hours
good luck

 

[TXCAP4228]

People ask themselves the same questions even outside the aviation industry. I may have mentioned it before, my degree is political science, my boss' is Forrestry Managment (yikes!). Needless to say, I'm in the business world and not in professional aviation, but the paralel holds true.

I got a degree in something I really liked. Just because it wasn't Finance or Business Management didn't prevent me from being competitive for the job I have.

One other thing. Even notwithstanding that you would have something to fall back on, you are a more welll rounded person to branch out into other fields. I would argue that it even makes you a better pilot.

 

[bobbysamd]

Accreditation

Just in case no one has said it, make sure your degree is from an institution accredited by one of the six accrediting bodies recognized by the Department of Education. E.g., the North Central Association, Southern Association, New England Association, etc.

 

[Typhoon1244]

B.A. Geography, University of Tennessee-Knoxville.

(Hey, somebody had to...)

 

[DoinTime]

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Making friends (this sounds gay, but the more friends you have in the aviation biz... the better)
------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sure, it's nice to have lots of pilot friends. But I am VERY happy I have many other friends outside aviation. It keeps things different, and allows you to have different experiences with people outside your own career field. I have friends in business, nursing, art, finance, biology, and many other areas. It is nice to go out with them and talk about things unrelated to flying. Having a heterogenous mixture of career interests is a very cool thing in a group of friends.

I think people spend too much time focusing on what they can do to "make it" as fast as possible in the industry. I am guilty of this, so I speak first hand from the experience. I wish I would have spent more time making friend outside aviation and broadening my knowledge of things outside "flying talk." Someday you'll be cruising at 41,000 feet and will need to talk about something else than flying. I know a lot of people who can't talk about anything else BUT flying.

People just need to figure out what they enjoy, and do that. Obviously we all enjoy flying. But if you enjoy something else as well, then maybe that would be a good degree program. I wish I would have gone into Business or Graphic Design. Hindsight is 20/20.

I think the definition of 'friend' in this case should be more like 'contacts.' I went to a large aviation university and graduated with a class of over 200 other pilots. I wasn't friends with all of them but there are 30+ that I keep in regular contact with that have jobs at nearly every regional/national airline in this country. These friends would bust their a$$ to help me out if I were looking for work and I would do the same for them. Its great to have friends outside of aviation, and I have many, but the only thing they will do for you when you are out of work is help you find a job that you don't want. Everyone who has been around the block a few times knows that in this business its not what you know but who you know.

I would have a never finished a degree program that wasn't aviation based. I'm certain that my resume looks better to any employer with a BS in aeronautical science than 48 credits of a liberal arts degree. Most employers are just like the airline in that they just want to see a degree, regardless of its nature. My sister has a degree in geography. She manages a psychiatric clinic. Go figure.

Do what's best for yourself.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Major in something that interests you. Nobody gives a squat about an aviation or technical degree for that matter. Enjoy your major and do WELL in it. Enjoy flying and stay in contact with everyone you fly with. Have fun and good luck.

 

[Since 1926]

Having a degree in Aviation is clearly an advantage. I came out of the number one aviation school in the country (Embry-Riddle), and was already prepared to fly jets. But it's important that you attend a top notch aviation school if you plan on an aviation degree. I've met some people who major in aviation at some no-name school and have no clue on how a turbine engine even works. Obviously Embry-Riddle can't provide you with 2000 hours of jet time while you go to school there. But what they can do is prepare you with the knowledge portion. Classes in advanced aerodynamics, turbine engines, turbine aircraft operations / jet transport systems, and so on. After having been through two groundschools on two different aircraft (one turboprop and one jet) at a part 121 airline, and a jet type rating with zero turbine experience, I can tell you that the knowledge attained from a good four-year aviation degree is priceless. I say that looking back on things after being out in the field for a while. Not only did the knowledge attained put me miles ahead in groundschool and checkrides, it helps me that much more on a regular basis where I have to troubleshoot a system or component during daily flight operations.

 

[kmunnpilot1]

Best of Both Worlds!

I just graduated from a university with a BS in Aviation Management AND Business Administration. I feel it was very beneficial to double major. I received training on how the business community operates as well as the aviation industry. Now, if I were to lose my medical, I always have my business degree to rely on. The only portion lacking from my training was a good knowledge base in turbine engine theory.

 

[MDPilot]

FlyChicaga,

I haven't laughed so hard all day!!! Keep it up!

 

[flywithastick]

Having a degree in Aviation is clearly an advantage

What's your backup plan? What if there's another terrorist attack and another 10,000 pilots hit the streets? What about a major (wrath of God, 1930's style) economic downturn?

As we like to discuss on these boards - suppose all things are equal - it's you and the guy from State with the finance degree interviewing for the job at Citibank. who they gonna hire, the guy with the BBA finance or the guy with the B(A?) in aviation?

If there's any doubt, you need to wake up from this dream and go put on some coffee.

 

[de727ups]

I went to ERAU, too...

"I came out of the number one aviation school in the country (Embry-Riddle), and was already prepared to fly jets"

I'm glad you did well in your airlines training program. I did fine, too, but I don't give the credit to ERAU. The aviation classes were okay but they were in 1981 and I got hired at UPS in 1990. Honestly, what helped me the most in my UPS initial was all the experience I gained in the years between ERAU and UPS.

Too say you come out of ERAU "already prepared to fly jets"...is...well....I'll resist the urge to flame and just say it's inaccurate.

In my humble opinion as a 13th year 727 pilot at UPS....no one comes out of ERAU ready to fly jets. You can take that direct entry BS and stuff it....there is NO substitute for experience gained in the real world and you don't have much of that at 300 hours.

 

[White]

Non Aviation Degree!!!

The biggest mistake I made so far was to spend 4 years and thousands of dollars for an aviation degree at ERAU.

I spent all of my money and accrued massive debt to get through that school and was hanging on to my dream by a shoestring when the industry dropped. That was the straw that broke my back and I had to settle for another future or look forward to making a whole 30-40K in 10 years while getting more into debt. So I reluctantly chose the later as I simply was out of money and needed to pay off my loans. I have now been looking for a professional job for a year using my “BS”degree to no avail. “You have a degree in what?” “From where?” they say. “What is Embry Riddle.” Through the last year I have lowered my standards all the way down to the people I used to judge while I was in flight training. The car salesmen, furniture salesmen, and many others thinking I was somehow on a different level. Soon I will have one of these jobs (if I can qualify). Now I’m looking at paying off all of my school loans while doing something I don’t like, in fact downright hate. I know this sounds depressing but there’s no way to sugar coat it, believe me I’ve tried. When you put all your eggs in one basket and those eggs break, that’s the end of the story…DON’T DO IT!!!

Get a degree in something specialized you can use in the real world. If I had another go at it, I would look into Engineering or Architecture or Business or basically your second love after flight. I would go to a well-known school in all industries, not just in aviation.

By getting a degree in your “second love” you will always have a backup plan you can use and can fly for fun.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Well, he IS from Riddle.

Hey! On another thread you can't say this because its poking fun and somebody decided that was just wrong! Whatever.

Nice one, I needed the laugh!

 

[CFI'er]

Most of the replies that are against an aviation degree don’t know what they are talking about. Posters that think and aviation degree is useless should go to the web site of one of the university/college schools that offer degrees in aviation. Look at the required courses for an aviation degree in management and compare to a business degree. Here, I will save you time and list just a few.

Aviation Management Degree: English Composition I & II, Contemporary Issues In Business Administration I & II, Statistics For business, Financial Accounting, Micro & Macroeconomics, Physics I & II & Lab, Managerial Accounting, Principle of Marketing, Business Writing, Business Law, Principle of Finance. Wow!!!! The exact course subjects that is required for a BS, Business Administration.

Don’t know why an aviation degree should not work in a down turn. The problem with most prospective employers is lack of knowledge as to what subject’s are/ were required for an aviation degree. If you hold a degree in aviation, you need to emphases the course that is required for a degree in Aviation Management.

During an interview for a managerial position, I actually had the interviewer comment: “Because of flight training, a person with a pilots license is most likely better qualified to handle any situation, that might come up, than a non pilot,” By the Way, yes I did get the job because I are a pilot.(sic)

 

[bobbysamd]

Curricula

Aviation Management Degree: English Composition I & II, Contemporary Issues In Business Administration I & II, Statistics For business, Financial Accounting, Micro & Macroeconomics, Physics I & II & Lab, Managerial Accounting, Principle of Marketing, Business Writing, Business Law, Principle of Finance. Wow!!!! The exact course subjects that is required for a BS, Business Administration . . . . .

Too bad that course(s) in American Labor Movement, etc., aren't included. I'd strongly recommend for either major to take such courses as electives.

I always liked how Riddle required students to take comp courses. Having strong writing skills, especially report preparation, letter-writing and resume preparation, are important skills that pilots need.

 

[greg20]

Labor classes

Too bad that course(s) in American Labor Movement, etc., aren't included. I'd strongly recommend for either major to take such courses as electives.

As part of my BS-Aviation Business Administration degree at ERAU (with an area of concentration in Airport Management), I was required to take courses in both Human Resource Management and Aviation Labor Relations. I believe labor relations is an elective now.

I agree with you about formal writing skills - I had business communications, technical report writing, and other courses where there was a strong emphasis on clear and succinct writing.

 

[WAC]

I am in the flight program at Central Washington University. Who did you talk to? Dale Wilson? Well After listening to speaches from people high up in the airlines I can honestly say I don't believe a major in flight officer is that important. It does help a little but the airlines are looking for well balanced people. It is kind of nice because you get all your ratings durring college. I am required to also minor in something else in case flying doesnt work out for what ever reason. And just because you fly doesnt mean you cant enjoy the college experience. Just dont drink the 3 nights a week that you have flights the next day or just drink a little. But anyway a degree in flying isn't THAT importamt, but it does have it's benefits.

 

[dmspilot00]

Re: Curricula

I always liked how Riddle required students to take comp courses.

Actually, most colleges require students to take Engl/Comp 1 and 2 or equivilant as part of their Gen. Ed. curriculum for most majors of study. Schools that don't require it are more the exception than the rule.

 

[bobbysamd]

Curricula

Actually, most colleges require students to take Engl/Comp 1 and 2 or equivilant as part of their Gen. Ed. curriculum for most majors of study. Schools that don't require it are more the exception than the rule.

Well, sure, but I mean more advanced courses than English 101/102. Something like Technical Writing and Business Communications. Journalism. Even Public Speaking.

 

[dmspilot00]

Students usually take some of those too. Just because I said they have to take Engl. Comp 1 & 2 doesn't mean those are the only ones.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but I am merely pointing out that ERAU's gen. ed. requirements are not special and are actually typical of any other college.

I understand and appreciate what you're saying, however. It is almost too bad that some colleges require such a large number of general education courses and electives, because I would have more respect for a person who took certain courses on his/her own because they wanted, rather than someone who only took them because he/she was required to. Many students complain about taking courses that aren't related to their major, and that they won't use in their job, and it is very irritating. Students are supposed to go to college in order to get an education, not a job!

When I started college I was initially an aero. engineering major, and hated it because there was little room for electives and courses that weren't associated with engineering. Basically the major was the opposite of "diverse" and "well-rounded." In order to graduate I would have needed 142 credits, probably 80% engineering. Most courses of study only have about 120-125 total with close to 50% for the major. And they expected students to finish 142 credits in four years??? Students with 120-credit majors usually don't even finish in four years anymore.