Attn. United Haters

[AA717driver]

Just as being in Ch.11 and up to their a$$ in angry creditors doesn't mean a company is doomed, receiving exit financing doesn't assure a successful recovery.

It doesn't matter if UAL has an exit plan or not--conditions change with the wind and plans are worthless as soon as they are committed to paper.

The UAL employees who have a few years left before retirement have had their lives turned upside down. They are scrambling to figure out where their next source of income will be after mandatory retirement at 60 (since it doesn't look like that's going anywhere soon). Those with a long time to go at UAL will spend the rest of their careers looking over their shoulder wondering where the next crisis will come from.

You might as well get a subscription to the WSJ because you will open it to the index of companies every day to see if UAL is in there. You'll keep up on the price of fuel and look at competitor's ads to see what they are charging. You'll bust your butts to save fuel only to see the savings pi$$ed away by management on some stupid scheme or program to a.) gain customers b.) retain frequent flyers or c.) improve employee morale through team building...blah, blah, blah.

Welcome to the world of the shaky airline. It's not temporary and the chances of another Continental happening are slim. Better get comfortable with the above circumstances.

Oh yeah, just wait till you're on the jumpseat and the JetBlue guys are lecturing you on dragging down the industry! Haaaaahaaaahaaaa! Yep. It's cold out there.TC

 

[ualdriver]

CHICAGO, Feb 14, 2005 (AP Online via COMTEX) -- United Airlines said Monday it has received four offers of debt financing worth as much as $2.5 billion to help the nation's No. 2 carrier emerge from bankruptcy......

http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/ne...FEE19C348EF1%7D

That WAS the link from Feb 14, which was the first time I saw any bank publically come out and say they were willing to give us anything. There might have been something sooner, but I didn't see it if they did. Someone else might have a link. Unfortunately, it was cut off after the "ne." That was the first sentence though, above the link.


Update 1: United Gets Four Offers of Debt Financing
02.14.2005, 11:07 PM

United Airlines said Monday it has received four offers of debt financing worth as much as $2.5 billion to help the nation's No. 2 carrier emerge from bankruptcy.

United spokeswoman Jean Medina would not say which financial institutions had made the offers and said there was no schedule for when any final deal might be reached. Moreover, any such agreement would be based upon United realizing the $2.5 billion in cost savings the carrier has already laid out, she said.
There's another but I don't have a link unfortunately. Sorry!


References to "new" business plans existed because things were changing so rapidly that the "old" one no longer applied!

 

[skykid]

You have a little trouble with reading comprehension.

What I said was comical was YOUR analysis of the pension situation, to including your insistance that the PBGC could and would actually liquidate United. Remember that thread where other posters (not me) were commenting on how nonsensical your posts were? That's what I'm talking about, and you know it.

I never said banks were willing to loan United 3 billion last Jan or Feb. What I said was "and the competitive offers for 2.5 billion in exit financing were well documented in the first months of this year." I heard that straight from mgt and also read it in United's hubs newspaper business sections. This is the same thing ualdriver posted on this thread - he may be right that it was somewhere between 2-2.5 billion. No I wont find it for you. If you did some research yourself you would know more. I don't believe anything I read and only about half of what I hear or actually see, so luckily I'm smart enough to realize these deals were contigent on a lot of issues - like the lease battle that just got resolved.

You would have to be a real dumb$ss to think United just formulated a business plan this Summer. Obviously a lot of things fell into place this Summer, but the business plan has been in affect and part of an ongoing process for several years. If you want to get caught up in when documents are filed and the semantics of calling additions "a new business plan," that really shows your level of comprehension. There are formal documents that include scheduling and notices of details that must be filed that have little to do with WHEN the actual business plan was formulated.

 

[skykid]

Welcome to the world of the shaky airline. It's not temporary and the chances of another Continental happening are slim. Better get comfortable with the above circumstances.

AA717, welcome aboard yourself! Give it a few more years and let's hope your company name isn't the one you're looking at for the wrong reasons in the WSJ. That's the way it works around here, but from what I've seen of your previous posts, you already know that. Good luck to us all!

 

[G4G5]

CHICAGO, Feb 14, 2005 (AP Online via COMTEX) -- United Airlines said Monday it has received four offers of debt financing worth as much as $2.5 billion to help the nation's No. 2 carrier emerge from bankruptcy......

http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/ne...FEE19C348EF1%7D

That WAS the link from Feb 14, which was the first time I saw any bank publically come out and say they were willing to give us anything. There might have been something sooner, but I didn't see it if they did. Someone else might have a link. Unfortunately, it was cut off after the "ne." That was the first sentence though, above the link.


Update 1: United Gets Four Offers of Debt Financing
02.14.2005, 11:07 PM

United Airlines said Monday it has received four offers of debt financing worth as much as $2.5 billion to help the nation's No. 2 carrier emerge from bankruptcy.

United spokeswoman Jean Medina would not say which financial institutions had made the offers and said there was no schedule for when any final deal might be reached. Moreover, any such agreement would be based upon United realizing the $2.5 billion in cost savings the carrier has already laid out, she said.
There's another but I don't have a link unfortunately. Sorry!


References to "new" business plans existed because things were changing so rapidly that the "old" one no longer applied!

Linky no work, but I'll take you word on it.
Thanks for digging it up.
The research that I came up with stated that those loans were ALL predicated upon cost cut, wage cuts and pension reform. The loans were offered but the lenders were well aware that UAL could not comply with the terms (as of the begining of the year).

Your quote about the business plan is dead on accurate. Everytime I turn around it's the new plan. My concern is that UAL mgt got wind of the judges verdict, no more extensions beyond 11/1. Which forced them to come out with another New Plan.

The timing is kind of suspect. Thursday they announce they have a $3 billon dollar loan and friday the judge says, no more extensions.

 

[G4G5]

You have a little trouble with reading comprehension.

What I said was comical was YOUR analysis of the pension situation, to including your insistance that the PBGC could and would actually liquidate United. Remember that thread where other posters (not me) were commenting on how nonsensical your posts were? That's what I'm talking about, and you know it.

I never said banks were willing to loan United 3 billion last Jan or Feb. What I said was "and the competitive offers for 2.5 billion in exit financing were well documented in the first months of this year." I heard that straight from mgt and also read it in United's hubs newspaper business sections. This is the same thing ualdriver posted on this thread - he may be right that it was somewhere between 2-2.5 billion. No I wont find it for you. If you did some research yourself you would know more. I don't believe anything I read and only about half of what I hear or actually see, so luckily I'm smart enough to realize these deals were contigent on a lot of issues - like the lease battle that just got resolved.

You would have to be a real dumb$ss to think United just formulated a business plan this Summer. Obviously a lot of things fell into place this Summer, but the business plan has been in affect and part of an ongoing process for several years. If you want to get caught up in when documents are filed and the semantics of calling additions "a new business plan," that really shows your level of comprehension. There are formal documents that include scheduling and notices of details that must be filed that have little to do with WHEN the actual business plan was formulated.

I have to admit I would have prefered to see UAL liquidated by the pBGC then see the pensions dumped onto the public. My guess is that every DAL and NWA employee feel the same way I do, within the up coming months. All UAL did was open the door for massive pension liability default. The other Legacy carriers will no doubt follow suite. To some how feel that you won the argument is pathetic, you lost your pension and opened the door for all the others to follow. Nothing their to be proud of.

Thanks for not looking it up, I did and foundout what a bunch of BS the loans were. The loans from last Jan/Feb that you refer to were meaningless, they all had caveats like, pension refrm, wage concessions, lease restructuring, yada yada attached. All of which every lender knew they could not meet.

So you seem to be the only one who thinks that UAL mgt had a business plan all along. I find you articles stating the opposite and you brush them aside. Ok 11/1 is just 60 days away and you seem to think that the timing of the new business plan just happen to coincide with the judges ruling. Oh that's right their is no new business plan, they ment for it to happen this way.

 

[G4G5]

Just as being in Ch.11 and up to their a$$ in angry creditors doesn't mean a company is doomed, receiving exit financing doesn't assure a successful recovery.

It doesn't matter if UAL has an exit plan or not--conditions change with the wind and plans are worthless as soon as they are committed to paper.

The UAL employees who have a few years left before retirement have had their lives turned upside down. They are scrambling to figure out where their next source of income will be after mandatory retirement at 60 (since it doesn't look like that's going anywhere soon). Those with a long time to go at UAL will spend the rest of their careers looking over their shoulder wondering where the next crisis will come from.

You might as well get a subscription to the WSJ because you will open it to the index of companies every day to see if UAL is in there. You'll keep up on the price of fuel and look at competitor's ads to see what they are charging. You'll bust your butts to save fuel only to see the savings pi$$ed away by management on some stupid scheme or program to a.) gain customers b.) retain frequent flyers or c.) improve employee morale through team building...blah, blah, blah.

Welcome to the world of the shaky airline. It's not temporary and the chances of another Continental happening are slim. Better get comfortable with the above circumstances.

Oh yeah, just wait till you're on the jumpseat and the JetBlue guys are lecturing you on dragging down the industry! Haaaaahaaaahaaaa! Yep. It's cold out there.TC

You are not the only one who feels this way, todays Rocky Mtn News:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/business/article/0,1299,DRMN_4_4034533,00.html

 

[B6Driver]

"Oh yeah, just wait till you're on the jumpseat and the JetBlue guys are lecturing you on dragging down the industry! Haaaaahaaaahaaaa! Yep. It's cold out there.TC"

Tim,
Poor attempt at humor if that was your goal.
JetBlue is not dragging down anything and you know it. You and I have heard that line before about our past home and we missed the punch line then to.

 

[ualdriver]

Linky no work, but I'll take you word on it.
Thanks for digging it up.
The research that I came up with stated that those loans were ALL predicated upon cost cut, wage cuts and pension reform. The loans were offered but the lenders were well aware that UAL could not comply with the terms (as of the begining of the year).

Your quote about the business plan is dead on accurate. Everytime I turn around it's the new plan. My concern is that UAL mgt got wind of the judges verdict, no more extensions beyond 11/1. Which forced them to come out with another New Plan.

The timing is kind of suspect. Thursday they announce they have a $3 billon dollar loan and friday the judge says, no more extensions.

Well of course any loan to UAL will have strings and will be predicated on something. Just like the loan many have on their house or their car. We still can't meet the terms of any money RIGHT NOW as the pensions (some if not all, I don't know) are still in tact until a court date in September. I still think there's a few bonds they're trying to sort out as well.

There was nothing to "get wind of." UAL tried to submit a plan to exit bankruptcy like a month ago and the creditor's committee wanted more time. Obviously the bankruptcy case can't go on forever (remember one year at the beginning was wasted trying to obtain the ATSB loan). Barring any major catastrophe (hull loss, terrorist attact, severe economic downturn, etc.), a plan will be submitted (again), deals will be cut in the back rooms, the banks will come with briefcases full of money, and everyone hopefully will walk away feeling just peachy.

P.S. I wouldn't quote The Rock Mountain News for ANYTHING technical regarding the airline industry. It's absolutely unbelievable the stuff they and others write to grab headlines.

 

[Mugs]

I have to admit I would have prefered to see UAL liquidated by the pBGC then see the pensions dumped onto the public. My guess is that every DAL and NWA employee feel the same way I do, within the up coming months. All UAL did was open the door for massive pension liability default. The other Legacy carriers will no doubt follow suite. To some how feel that you won the argument is pathetic, you lost your pension and opened the door for all the others to follow. Nothing their to be proud of.

Thanks for not looking it up, I did and foundout what a bunch of BS the loans were. The loans from last Jan/Feb that you refer to were meaningless, they all had caveats like, pension refrm, wage concessions, lease restructuring, yada yada attached. All of which every lender knew they could not meet.

So you seem to be the only one who thinks that UAL mgt had a business plan all along. I find you articles stating the opposite and you brush them aside. Ok 11/1 is just 60 days away and you seem to think that the timing of the new business plan just happen to coincide with the judges ruling. Oh that's right their is no new business plan, they ment for it to happen this way.

So liquidating UAL would have saved the defined benefit pension plans in the U.S. airline industry. Further growth by LCC's (current and future upstarts) would not have affected the future viability of those plans at the remaining legacy carriers. Is that your opinion?

The ATSB, in denying UAL's final request for the ATSB loan, said that UAL had sufficient access to the capital markets for financing. Thus, there was no need for UAL to receive an ATSB loan. However, the ATSB knew that the captial markets were not willing to loan UAL anything with the pension obligation in place. It can be assumed that given the UAL situation and the apparent lack of enthusiasm in Washington to pass any meaningful pension reform (as far as the airline industry is concerned), the Government had already accepted the reality of the collapse of the defined benefit pension plan in the U.S. airline industry. Afterall, it was the Government that deregulated the airlines to begin with, while making no requirement that new entrants offer pensions and other traditional benefits to their workforces.

The industry is simply evolving as the Government intended. Thanks to the internet, it is finally happening. The pension defaults are viewed as a relatively small cost for a longer term benefit. Nothing to be proud of, but the economics of it all are unstoppable with or without UAL in the picture.