ATTENTION NJA PILOTS: Captain overide pay!

[jpilot]

You can threaten me all you want. This time the bid is NOT sanctioned by the union nor can they now that SU is in office. It IS the right of the members to bid by seniority. It's not about a couple of months. Heck, I could have gotten the last bid, so I have given up more than a couple of months.

Read the NJA boards. People of power in the union are not backing this idea. Get over it. It ain't happening.

 

[luvu]

pity is appropriate

FrontierFan

I think it is a noble effort. Those that pulled it off last time by withholding their bid earned a lot of respect. The kind of respect which combined with flight experience gets you letters of recommendation at companies worth working for.

It might just be the most honorable thing they do in their lives and 30 years from now it may be the thing that brings them the most enduring professional pride. As we get older, and I am older, we begin to realize how opportunities for making the grand and noble gesture are gifts of circumstance (or God depending on your persuasion) that are indeed quite rare. Great men recognize these opportunities for what they are and treasure them and are thankful for being able to do something that will achieve so much good.

To be angry at him is inappropriate, I think. The proper emotion is pity.

 

[luvu]

out of line

Jpilot,

NOBODY is threatening you. Nobody has threatened you. Get a grip! If you are losing it emotionally on this issue that voice you feel threatened by just might be your own conscience trying to knock some long term values into your head. You are being short sighted is all. We can deal with that. In fact we will have to.

 

[jpilot]

<<Having a right to do something is different than doing the right thing. You will not be anonymous if you choose to exercise this right. You will be proclaiming to the entire industry. Look at me, given a choice I choose to put myself above everyone else. At your next interview, I am sure this will go over real big.>>


That is a threat in my eyes. And another thing, you might think I am being selfish, quite the contrary. I feel you are being selfish asking us to forego a right we are entitled to. You go to the airlines, you expect to get FO pay until you upgrade. It is what NJA wants is infighting among us. You are doing a good job stirring it up.

I have done more to help get SU up and running than you could ever know, what are you volunteering for?

 

[luvu]

tragedy

jpilot

I apologize for posting something you perceived to be threatening. That was not my intent.

I do not think you are a bad person. In fact, you participated by your own account in the last Captain overide campaign and you have been active with SU so my opinion of you is actually quite high. You have earned respect by your past actions.

If you have ever studied literature then you will remember that there can be no great tragedy without a great fall. It isn't tragic to be born in the gutter although it is certainly sad. But to have been King and end your days in the gutter, Now that would be, by definition, a tragedy. You have risen to great heights with your past actions. Where now?

 

[CatYaaak]

You can threaten me all you want. This time the bid is NOT sanctioned by the union nor can they now that SU is in office. It IS the right of the members to bid by seniority. It's not about a couple of months. Heck, I could have gotten the last bid, so I have given up more than a couple of months.

Read the NJA boards. People of power in the union are not backing this idea. Get over it. It ain't happening.

New union dudes, same old song. It always comes down to this..how many airlines have we seen it at? Senior guys sh1tting on the junior guys of the so-called brotherhood, wagging fingers and telling them "I paid my dues, now sit down and shut up so I can get ahead Junior".

You certainly put your finger on it; "people in power", and we know what power can do. "Grass roots" is now only what they deem it to be, and not something that begins within the rank and file. I guess you all won't be holding hands and singing Kumbaya anytime soon?

 

[semperfido]

the airlines suffered with them and now bizjet people get to have the same old nightmare....UNIONS.

 

[CatYaaak]

Frontier, you sound very much like someone who approached this job only hearing the things he wanted to hear. Now that it didn't work out for you, we should be the ones to fix your problem. Sorry, it's not gonna happen. You're going to be an F/O here until such time as you have enough seniority to bid and hold a Captain's line. QUOTE]

My, my, the Emperor has no clothes.

Gee, and here I thought that the WHOLE POINT of having a union was to "fix problems" of the membership/brotherhood/pilot group and better their situation. Doesn't Frontier (and 349 others with more on the way) qualify? It's quite telling that you referred to Frontier's situation as "your problem", rather than accept his part of the same low-wage contract as "our problem". Hey Griz, when YOU joined the company, didn't you help enable, by virtue of accepting them, the same low wages he's now having to deal with?

So a few mere months ago you helped rally the troops to what you said then was a noble cause, and successfully used bid-manuevering as a tool to better the condition of your lowest-paid. Now you refuse to even consider picking up that very same successful tool, and chastize your junior member here as if he's promoting something ridiculous even though it's only 1 seat that needs to go junior.

So I guess if you didn't think of using it, it's different? Or are your new SU leaders simply too busy sitting around circle-jerking yourselves into a frenzy over "important" courtroom, tangental issues like NJI (which does nothing to better your condition), so have no time left over to provide the leadership it takes to persuade the rank and file that another salary-win for your lowest-paid brothers is another win for all?

Call me crazy, but perhaps a repeated show of such unity every time the opportunity presents itself...one that forces the company to pay captain's wages to practically everyone who comes on the property....would go a long way towards convincing them that they might as well write into a new contract those same higher wages for your newbies.

Frontier is complaining about pay, not obtaining a captain's seat out of seniority as you imply. Pay. The same complaint you have/had. His complaint regarding being sold a bill of goods and empty promises is exactly the same one that inspired the formation of SU, and anyone getting hired there since the Teamsters came on property accepted the low-pay in part based on the predictions of imaginary contracts. Does this include you?

Gee Griz, you sound very much like someone who approached your job only hearing things you wanted to hear, and even a failed attempt at persuading your rank and file to repeat the victory on the wage front is better that sh1tting on your own junior members for merely suggesting it.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[FrontierFan]

deleted

 

[FrontierFan]

deleted

 

[CatYaaak]

What grizz thinks is that if this new initiative is successful than the new MEC will have less bargaining power. Here is his thought. If there is another FO initiative to earn bypass pay than pilots on the outside might more willingly accept a job here. The would be applicant might think that he too can take part in another initiative to raise his pay once he is hired. This would increase people’s interest in working for NJA and therefore decrease the strength available to the new MEC at the negotiating table.

When in reality, providing leadership and persuading people to unite again for the same cause would give the MEC more bargaining power.

After the first bid-maneuvered wage victory, I remember the claim that it sent a "huge message". Now taking the same steps hard on the heels of the first one would be somehow be detrimental? Hardly, it would send an even bigger message and signify strength, which is the position you want to bargain from.

After the first atomic bomb was dropped on Japan and we sent a huge "message", the Ministers of Japan met and voted to continue the war. Good thing Griz wasn't advising Harry Truman on whether to drop the second one.

Just a thought...if Griz and gang aren't supporting this initiative on the grounds that prospective employees will expect a likewise maneuver, and this act of signing-on for employment will undermine the union's power, how is that any different than people like Griz taking the the job in the hope that the next contract will do the same? Isn't that tantamount to admitting that he undermined his own MEC and stagnated his own wages when he committed the same act?

I think I see a boat, and some pilots just scrambled up a ladder out of the water while leaving some others behind. Now those in the water still treading have spotted the ladder in the water and are swimming towards it...whoops! the ones steering the boat just ordered to have it pulled it up and announced "Let 'em swim!"

 

[luvu]

MEC sponsored pre-bid is proper solution

If a bid overide campaign became the MECs officially sponsored strategy for every open bid it would represent proof of a huge organizational capacity and demonstrate a fearsome ability to flex the collective muscle. You are talking about organizing to target just one open seat per bid. Not much of a sacrifice.

Simple ongoing format for solution that can be implimented within 24 hours and satisfy all parties. All MEC needs to do is host a pre-bid on the union board. In this case the highest three bidders on the pre-bid would be given green light to place official bid with company. The fourth bid would go to designated junior candidate.

This solves the problems in a real organized fashion. It eliminates PIC wannabees who ordinarily wouldn't be senior enough to hold bid from weaseling into the seat just because a large number of more senior pilots have a more enduring sense of honor and faithfulness to fellow union pilots.

You might find under this system that jpilot, for instance wouldn't even be close to the top three bidders if a system of pre-bids were devised to let all honorable pilots bid, with the understanding that three seats are indeed available while still preserving the overide campaign.

Give me one good reason NOT to impliment the organized pre-bidding on every single open pilot seat from now until contract ratification. Once you commit to the strategy there is nothing herculean about executing it for each bid.

 

[luvu]

sweetening the pot on organized pre-bidding

Once you have a system to positively identify who the 4th most senior bidder is who is actually the single pilot that would be making the sacrifice to the junior man, you could create a prize to show your appreciation.

The prize could be $10,000 tax free. The prize money would be gathered by dividing $10,000 by the number of pilots stepping up to Captain's pay because of number four's identifiable and verifiable sacrifice.

In this month's bid we are talking about $30 bucks per overide Captain and they would be held on their honor to send it in when they get their first upsized paycheck.

Even if the number of overide Captains fell to as little as 10 pilots and their individual share added up to $1,000, they would still come out ahead after a month on the new salary.

You could make the awarding of the $10,000 a huge rallying point with photo opportunity and huge industry wide cheering each time.

Give me one good reason NOT to make this happen. Everybody truly wins and if jpilot draws number 4, sacrifices his bid, collects $10,000 and many heartfelt thanks from junior members, tell me that wouldn't make him feel better about things than the course he is now considering.

 

[FrontierFan]

I think this could be the best idea that everyone can get on board with. Time will tell.

 

[gordon24]

Yea, I'd go for that idea.

 

[tripacer]

Griz,

When did the company do away with the training contract?

 

[Grizz]

They haven't as far as I know. They proposed to get rid of the as part of the failed TA but as far as I know, training contracts are alive and well.

Now as to whether they are legal or not, that's another question. One left to more astute legal minds than this broke down ol' pilot.

 

[netjetwife]

One good reason---

The bypass pay system is a part of the contract that is now under negotiation. The last effort didn't make any fans (of bypass pay) in the company. Look at what you're proposing from the company's viewpoint--would you vote for it?

My family is one of the 116 that received bypass pay. I was one of those that posted on here about the huge message that it sent to the company, and would love to see it happen again. However, my husband is good at pointing out the practical aspects (he helped make the calls last time) of any other efforts in the near term. He told me that there are guys like jpilot out there who held off and must be given their chance; there may be more who think like that than you realize. One of the reasons that it was successful last time doesn't exist now. That group of pilots had been given "promises" in their interviews that were not kept and many of their fellow pilots thought that was wrong. Such was not the case for the pilots hired afterwards.

It is very unfair to criticize SU for not backing another bypass effort right now. Those people have their hands full, and are fighting for ALL of the pilots and families! The efforts of volunteers need to be directed at winning a good/fair contract for everyone. Many of the SU supporters (like my husband) feel very strongly about helping the FO/FOs. They are working hard to get them wages that they can support their families on while they wait for an upgrade. THAT is the right way to solve the problem of a low payscale. Let's all work together for a permanent solution! Fights on! Netjetwife

 

[Ditch-LRDriver]

Override pay?

Thanks for all the support from the various posts! Obviously there are many ways to interpret this cause and perceive it.
Couple of notes for everyone;
The union can't officially back this effort for contractual reasons, but neither did the last MEC members. We obviously wouldn't jeopardize their mission, nor expect to put their positions at risk. It was confirmed with Strong Union that such a cause would be independent of their duties and responsibilities.
Being that said, the movement has been scaled back for time constraint reasons. We had less than two weeks to make the push, but gave it our best! We will wait for the results and hope for the best. One major difference this time around, potential bidders were not asked to forgo captains pay because they had already been receiving it, from the last successful campaign.
We look forward to a future were back-door politics won't be necessary to achieve what all professional pilots strive for--FAIR WAGES.

 

[SquirrelDog]

I guess the motto is "I got mine, screw you guys/gals".

Everyone knew what the pay was starting ( If yo didn't then You are an idiot and can't read), but that doesnt mean one can't try and increase their pay at every opportunity.

"jpilot" YOU CAME TO NETJETS FOR AN UPGRADE AND PIC TIME, HA HA!
Over the last several years Netjets uprgrade has almost been nil many companys have had a lot quicker advancement. For one Pinnacle-off the street captains and multiple cargo jobs offering quick upgrades due to the fast turnover. That's a good one try again!\

Here here to FrontierFan and CatYaaak

Fly safe SD