Attention All Nji Pilots

[QOL_is_great:)]

RustyFan not very bright

To the individual (RustyFan) who started this thread; you're not very bright. I believe BROKENFLYER in post #4 said it the best. A few other folks had some great points too.

You honestly think you can organize now that you are on the seniority list? How the hell does that work? You really need to read the LOA or have someone sit and explain it to ya. You must believe some surreptitious plan has been formed against the NJI pilot group. You and the rest of the NJI pilot group will do just fine so relax. In fact, the NJI FO group will have more opportunities, if they decide to grab them. Nobody wants to be a career FO. Right?

I'd like to know where you received your info that an overwhelming number of the NJA pilot group wants the roughly 300 NJI pilots at the bottom of the list. Please show me your facts, numbers and/or the data you have to support such a claim. I suspect there is isn't any and that you pulled that statement outta your six to make a point. If you have facts to support your statement then I'll man-up and say I was wrong in calling you not very bright. Until then.....

I do feel for you guys about coming into the unknown, but all you have to do is talk to any of us or the union, yes the one you're trashing. Remember, you're part of it now. Don't start off this courtship on the wrong foot. Yes, you'll have some knuckleheads here that'll be pissed to have NJI join the NJA family and have "bumped" them from something. You guys are part of the family now. If a person gives you crap then utilize the resources that the union offers and fix the problem.

Good luck and I hope your attitude shuns the dark side.

 

[RTRHD]

Gruman Fan, RTRHD, and anyone else over there on a more even keel the Rusty, I'm just curious. Where do you see the deficiencies in this thing where you'll be hosed?

Speaking for myself only. I am happy, I wish we heard more but you guys are doing good in my opinion. Can we get those zip ties? I spilled salsa on my tie the other day and had to wake up 30 minute early to tie another one. Too short then too long. That's my stand Zip Ties!!!!:nuts:

 

[gunfyter]

I am still lobbying for Cowboy boots and Leather flying jackets...

It was good enough for Wilbur and Orville...:crying:

 

[flyjetspeed]

Geez Rusty, talk about a day late and a dollar short!
This thing is all but over. I will agree with you and Rotor that we should have a seat at the table but how do you propose we select that person? The only system we have in place is the Group Leader process for better or for worse. Maybe one of the more active Group leaders can be invited to sit in on the talks, I would nominate C.T. or D.N. for the pilots and G.D. for the FA's if there was a forum, other that F.I., to do it. At least there would be a bit more openness to the process than there has been so far. I do believe B.N.
has our best interests in mind, as always, but he also must be thinking how this is going to work from a managers perspective, as he should. Like it or not R.S. has already made an agreement with the elected
leadership of the union and formalized that agreement in a document we know as LOA 01-013. ALL of the major issues are dealt with in that
LOA and the NJI pilot's have been treated quite well in it.Yes there are some NJA pilots who believe we have been given way too much for very little but they are a small minority. B O. speaks for Woodbridge now because he was the author of that LOA that treats us so well. R.S. put him in there because he wants a fair deal for both groups. The overriding concern is to achieve an integration that is cohesive, not devisive. If we were to begin a drive to form a "counter union"
as your post suggests, I fear that would be devisive and possibly do more harm than good. A better approach would be to become involved in our new organization and run for office effecting change from within. IMHO

 

[hyflyin]

You NJI guys need to get a grip of those few rogue individuals. As mergers of lists go you have done quite well and as an NJA guy I would be happy to see this go to an arbitraitor, because thats where mergers of lists always end up, and bring some things back home to the NJA group. Arbitraitors give and take, its just how it works. Have we not learned anything from AA/TWA, USAIR/AWA, green book/redbook? Any of this ringing any bells?? This agreement is fine, most on both sides seem to be able to live with it. Leave it alone and lets move forward. The only thing that can come from rewriting the LOA are many years of turmoil and I for one am not interested in seeing this job ruined because some flatworm feels inadequate flying a smaller a/c.

Leave it alone and lets move forward as a single group, it will not only benefit us but the company as well.

Rant over!

 

[RTRHD]

You NJI guys need to get a grip of those few rogue individuals.

Now how can we do that, I mean free country public board and all. But I am here to tell ya if we don't get leather jackets and those zip tie's by integration there's. Well I won't really do anything but I can bellyache and that can get old.

 

[hyflyin]

Now how can we do that, I mean free country public board and all. But I am here to tell ya if we don't get leather jackets and those zip tie's by integration there's. Well I won't really do anything but I can bellyache and that can get old.

We have clip ties too. I know nothing about leather jackets only the peyano jacket that sheds the water from your torso and drops it all over your legs.

:beer:

 

[Semore Butts]

Are we back on the Leather Jackets?

Alright! Lets do it!

If I were you NJI guys I would tell R.S.;

R.S., The NJA guys have struck us a pretty good deal and welcomed us with open arms!

Should'nt we do something for them?

"R.S., as a show of goodwill and brotherhood and to bring us together as a group we should get the whole fleet";

"Perrone Leather Jackets"!!!!!!!!!!!

"And Zip ties too"!!!!!

Coming from you guys it should work right?

I love these NJI guys!!!!!!!! You guys are great!

Thanks! Team!

 

[RTRHD]

Alright! Lets do it!

If I were you NJI guys I would tell R.S.;

R.S., The NJA guys have struck us a pretty good deal and welcomed us with open arms!

We should do something for them R.S.?

"R.S., as a show of goodwill and brotherhood and to bring us together as a group we should get the whole fleet";

"Perrone Leather Jackets for all"!!!!!!!!!!!

I love these NJI guys!!!!!!!! You guys are great!

Thanks! Team!

And Zip Ties. But Leather Jackets were Gun's Idea. And now back to the infighting......

 

[CA1900]

And Zip Ties. But Leather Jackets were Gun's Idea. And now back to the infighting......

It's not infighting unless we're part of the same group.

See? Progress already! :laugh:

 

[Dirty Dingus]

I think some of ya'll MISSED the point, R F doesn't want a New union, I really think he just wants someone to rep us at the table!!!!! You union guys should be helping us out and get the board to start including us in on the talks. All I hear NOW is, there's a lot of fighting going on in-house about the elections. This is NOT a good way to start the new relationship between the two companies. Someone PLZ call NJASAP and let them know we need INFO!!!! And we want to be included in the talks.

 

[CA1900]

You union guys should be helping us out and get the board to start including us in on the talks.

The election is over on Friday. Once that's done, we'll be able to concentrate on the business at hand. Hang in there!

 

[Hogprint]

I think some of ya'll MISSED the point, R F doesn't want a New union, I really think he just wants someone to rep us at the table!!!!! You union guys should be helping us out and get the board to start including us in on the talks. All I hear NOW is, there's a lot of fighting going on in-house about the elections. This is NOT a good way to start the new relationship between the two companies. Someone PLZ call NJASAP and let them know we need INFO!!!! And we want to be included in the talks.

Dirty,
Have you started paying dues yet? When you do then the boards will open up like the Red Sea! As posted above, hang in there. The elections will be over at the end of the week. I think you'll see some positive movement soon.

I fully support the "I" having a comitee at this point. I think you'll see your guys volunteering for comities and getting involved soon. Elections will be a couple of years down the road. Good luck and the first beers on me when you get here.

 

[RTRHD]

Someone PLZ call NJASAP and let them know we need INFO!!!!

See!!!! And Dinger is a lot smarter than I am. Hey DD they have got these ties you don't have to tie. Imagine the possibilities.

 

[NJIGUY]

Gentlemen,
I understand the feelings of Rustyfan and can sympathize to a certain degree.There are issues to be worked out to be sure. I've never been involved with a union, and that has been by choice. NJA chose to have union representation, obviously they felt the need. NJI has remained non union in large part because there was no need. A very different work enviroment from NJA. We have direct access to management anytime regarding any issues without having to go through any other process.
Understandably there is fear and rumors going around, but that is usually asscociated with a lack of reliable information. All we have right now is the LOA for guidence. There are certain things spelled out as far as "protections" go, but the rest will have to come through the negotiation process over the next 2 years. By then, some or most of these concerns will be delt with. Rusty's concern is that we (NJI pilots) will have no input into that process. Management is always available to air these concerns, and a few have stated that we (NJI) are already "in the union" and are afforded represention. In truth we are not, we are not paying dues, and have no input, or vote when it comes to union issues. That will surely come down the road, but as of right now during these next 2 years we do not. We do have a merged list of "senority" but unless your planning on changing fleets, it doesn't really matter what your number is. I have spent my career to be able to fly Gulfstreams, and have no intention of bidding out of them. My guess is that most guys at NJI will have upgraded by the time this is all said and done, so it will be a non factor.
I've had several opportunities to spend some time with NJA pilots both in the cockpit and in class and found most of them great guys. Everybody has the 5%'rs. Just remember they are a fringe element, most everyone wants this to be worked out fairly with opportunities for both sides.

 

[realityman]

In truth we are not, we are not paying dues, and have no input, or vote when it comes to union issues. That will surely come down the road, but as of right now during these next 2 years we do not.

The biggest problem right now is probably a simple one of communication. Lack of communication leads to fear and rumors. Unfortunately, NJASAP has no means of contacting the NJI pilots en masse until they are all dues paying members of the union. We have no master list of the pilots at NJI, and no means of collecting that info at this time. The end result, through no fault of the pilots, are false statements like the one I've quoted above.

After elections are over, we can hopefully move on and start getting the word out about everything that is going on with this integration. Meanwhile, I'll try starting things off.

The quoted statement above is wrong because all NJI pilots have the option of voluntarily paying dues right now, thus giving them access to the union message board, as well as a voice in all that goes on within the union. I would suggest trying NJASAP.com and contacting someone in the office as to how to set things up. But it CAN BE DONE RIGHT NOW!

I realize none of the NJI guys have heard about this, and it comes down to that pesky communication thing again. So for now, we'll just have to spread the news via word-of-mouth.

But you can have a voice in OUR (yours and mine) union RIGHT NOW. Start paying your dues and welcome to the party!!

By the way, I'm sure there are more than a few of you who feel it would be a 'nice gesture' if we just gave you access to the message boards and union without paying dues yet, but no can do. News flash: If I, as a pilot at NJA for almost 12 years, stop paying dues I will NOT have access to the message boards, or have a voice in the union anymore. Sorry, no free rides.

But you know, the dues are really pretty small, and i get a little back every year since they are tax deductible.

So pay your dues now, and much of what you're worried about can be put to rest.

 

[NJAPLT]

My Thoughs

TO ALL NJI PILOTS

URGENT:


The time has come for us to organize a leadership team from within. Several of us have been formulating ideas and options over the past several weeks. It is now time for us to speak with a clear and unified voice.

Actually, I think the time to fight integration was a couple of years ago, but you always have the right to speak and have your opinions known.


Use every available means of communication we have and put the word out, as we will need signed letters of support for the NMB to recognize our effort and guarantee us a seat at the negotiating table. Time is not on our side, as we have 2 years of idleness to make up for.

I'm not a lawyer, just an ordinary line pilot, but my understanding is that only one union can exist at a company per bargaining group. If you didn't want to be represented by the NJASAP, you would have to be declared by the NMB as not being in the same bargaining group as other pilots under the Netjets company. The NJASAP and Netjets company (via the integration agreement) both believe that both NJA and NJI are part of the same group.

Had the NJASAP had to file a single carrier petition, we would be asking the NMB to declare both NJA & NJI pilots as being under the same group (i.e. doing a similar enough job at the same company.) This is where the fight over representation usually occurs, for example Mesa & Freedom, TransStates vs GoJets. Our union was saying we had a strong case to prove this, my opinion was that the board tends to make the "facts" fit with the politics of the administration that appointed them to their position on the NMB.

I think the best way to have stopped the integration was to have another union (or a nonunion company advisory board) already representing the NJI pilots, it would have been one of the strongest arguments the company could have used that the NJA and NJI pilots were not in the same bargaining group. Now it would be a much harder sell, as both the NJASAP and NetJets are both saying that the pilots should be represented by the NJASAP, and they are all NetJets pilots.

Things you need to know:


• There are no NJI line pilots representing your direct interests during this merger. As it stands now, our management will enter into talks with NetJets Senior management (Bill Olsen, who is a former Union Official) and a group from NJASAP to negotiate the integration of the two pilot groups.

I can't disagree. I really wonder how much more will be agreed to other than the current LOA however. Negotiations are always tit-for-tat, if the company wants something outside what has already been agreed to, they will have to give up something.

Many of the FO NJA pilots (not me) I have talked to want a fence to prevent a NJI FO from taking a spot as a captain in a NJA run airplane even if the NJI fo is more senior. Other NJA pilots (including me) want every NJA captain to be brought up to an equal pay scale as the highest paid captain over at NJI. They see having a less senior pilot on the combined list being paid more that a more senior NJA pilot as a special deal, i.e. "Fab 5 situation." I've heard talk that some NJA pilots would like to fly from any airport, and start and end trips from any airport like the NJI pilots have right now.

Will the company be willing to give up what would be required to get more work rule changes for the NJI pilots? I don't know, but I doubt it....

• NJASAP has a network of lawyers, financial funds, and developed leadership hierarchies to insure their pilots’ interests are protected. We do not.

Once you are part of the union, the union has a duty to fairly represent all people in the bargaining unit. If they don't, you have a right to go to court and force the union to fairly represent you. (See the current situation with US Airways, America West and their new union, the USAPA.)

I remember reading about some lawsuits over the "B" scale wages that were instituted at several airlines. If I remember it correctly, it was ruled that until a pilot is represented by a union (i.e. usually hired) a union has no duty to represent them, which allows things such as a B scale (or in the case of the IBT 1108, the gateway airport system only for new hires.) See the under-the-bus argument below why I don't think it will be an issue.


• If you do nothing and sit on the sideline, you will be working under the rules and be paid a salary negotiated by parties outside of your influence. Your work life as you know it will change and you will have had no say-so in it.

Once you are part of the union, you have the same representation as any other member. You will get the same vote as any of us, and the same rights. As a practical thing, it would be unwise to "throw NJI pilots under the bus" during the transition because they will be able to vote the current union officers out of the union during the next election.

• There is no guarantee than the NJASAP union will not attempt to flush the NJI pilots out of their aircraft at a later date and time.

You will be members then, and the union owes you the same duties and protections as any other union member.

• Our FO’s still do not have a clear and defined right to upgrade in Gulfstream Aircraft.

Your right. You have to hold a G4 captain position to hold a G5 captain position, but a G4 position is bases solely on seniority system wide (like every other aircraft at NJA.) My personal position is that if you had to be an FO in a G4 or G5 first before being a captain in a G4, it would create a permanent company in a company, and would be impossible for any NJA pilot to work there way up to a gulfstream during there career.

The other side of the coin is that if integration occurred tomorrow, the NJI fo's could bid all the NJA captain spots, pushing the next NJA pilot 50 numbers back in his upgrade, and delaying him another year. I see this as just part of the cost up integration. I had breakfast with someone who is just a couple of numbers away from encore + captain, and he was surprised that he could get displaced by NJI fo's, while our captains could not bid G5's, even if more senior based on the time in program provision of the LOA.


• The LOA is only binding until the next LOA is negotiated (you have no career long guarantee to be seat and pay protected).


Your right. In fact, I would expect that during the next full contract negotiations, the pay scales will be negotiated so all the NJA and NJI pilots work off of the same pay rates. I would expect the union to start off demanding more than the highest paid NJI pilot, as the company has proved that is how much a captain at NetJets should make. Seat protection from G4 captain to G5 captain could go away too, during the next negotiations. (Just like bypass pay went away during the 98 to 05 contracts.)

If it helps, we are several years away from starting negotiations on a new contract however, who knows what the industry will look like then, we may all be fighting to get out of Gulfstreams and into SSBJ's...

• NJASAP leaders are split as to how to integrate NJI pilots. There is still an overwhelming majority of NJA pilots who want a staple and a flush of all NJI pilots system wide.

The LOA covers integration. I can't see either the union or the company deciding to renegotiate the the LOA at this late date, now that it is a living document with the integration announcement" Also, see the "throwing under the bus" argument above.



Contact us at [email protected] if you are ready to stand up and protect your career. Forward this email to all NJI crews, spread the word, the time has come to protect ourselves. We must carefully analyze our options and take the steps to protect our careers for the long run. There is nothing we can do at this time to stop the inevitable merger, but we can and do have the right to engage ourselves into the process to make sure our voices are heard. Do not let the NJA pilots make you think all is lost. We have a strong cadre of ex-airline pilots who know how to fight this current situation and make it fair for us.

I don't know if it would be impossible for the NJI pilots to stop the integration, but the bar is set way to high in my opinion. The only way I see is if you can convince the NMB that you are a different bargaining group than the pilots over at NJA. If enough NJI pilots get together and want to pay a labor lawyer to find out if they can get out of the integration, it you your right, but I think it is a lost cause.

The NJI pilots could start a petition and deliver it to the netjets with a list of demands they want, but remember that until the integration is complete you do not have representation if they decided to take action to "get rid of the troublemakers."

I forgot to add that these are just my opinions, and may or may not be shared with either NJASAP or NetJets officials. I am not a lawyer, or hold any union or company office position. I'm just going by my understanding of labor law via college classes, and what I've picked up over the years, so don't take anything I've said as the final word.

 

[B727FA]

But you know, the dues are really pretty small, and i get a little back every year since they are tax deductible.

100% of Union dues are deductible.

 

[NJIGUY]

Get a Pilot to pay for something voluntarily??

Now thats a lofty goal...

 

[B727FA]

Get a Pilot to pay for something voluntarily??

Now thats a lofty goal...

Reminds me of the old joke:

Woman on phone at Hotel: "There's a naked pilot running around on the third floor!"

Front Desk: "Ma'am, if he's naked how do you know he's a pilot?"

Woman: "He's got a pot belly, balding and he just took my USAToday!"