My point is that you don't have to match a legacy's ASM's mile for mile to have an effect. To argue that the JetBlue's, Airtran's, and Frontier's of the were only a certain percentage of the ASM's flown by the big legacies and therefore they had little to no effect on trashing yields in overlapping markets is ridiculous.[/qoute]
That's exactly what it means. When you got your big summer of love contract, were there not "the JetBlue's of the world" out there? There are
always LCC's (or now "ultra LCC's") out there and there always will be. More germain to the arguement, there always have been. So if it was an excuse then its a standing excuse. You are permitted to lower your wages as low as necessary to keep your jobs, because that is your soverign right because you were here first. But start up airlines are unfairly undercutting you when they pay less than established legacy rates because that's just dirty pool. If you truly believe that, the only answer is complete zero competition (other than the big 6) re-regulation that banns all but the big 6. Good luck getting that legislation passed.
Using that logic, I guess UAL shouldn't be concerned at all about Virgin's growth in SFO. I mean, c'mon! Virgin's ASM's are only a fraction of UAL's! What damage could Virgin possibly do with their $95/hr A320 Captains, right?
Exactly. So is your MEC going to rush right out and undercut VA's rates now? Is that what you're saying? Before you do, which we all know would be 100% not your fault and completely justified, because ou were here first and are entitled to do anything to survive, you first better check and make sure no airline pays less then VA. The only way to survive is to pay the lowest minus 1% regardless of miles flown, routes, network, revenue or any other consideration of the airline in question. If one airline flies one plane at one dollar less than you, you
must undercut them to survive. PLEASE tell me you're not on or anywhere near anything even remotely resembling a negotiating committee.
I would LOVE to have this conversation again if Virgin sets up shop in JFK. No worries for JetBlue management there since Virgin would be so much smaller than JetBlue operation in JFK!
VA has already "set up shop" in JFK. And SFO, DEN, LA, SAN, SEA, IAD and soon many other markets we are in as well. We have major issues with our management, but if they slapped down VA's start up pay and said "us too or we'll liquidate" they would get far more than 50% + 1 middle fingers from us. And even if they did do that, I would rather see them liquidate than agree to those terms. But what difference does it make anyway, because according to your logic VA pays less and will therefore take over the entire domestic market with ease.
The only guys that talk tough are the guys that don't understand what unionism can and cannot do concerning pilot wage, work rules, and retirement and the reality of business. You've never seen me type those words (full pay....last day).
Well maybe you should. There is a time and place to use those words (and back them up with actions). A pilot group that is never willing to walk away under any circumstances is a push over group who deserves what they get, and that goes for JB as well.
I'm more concerned about third world pilots coming flying aircraft within my country for third world wages. But I guess as long as these airlines don't get as big (ASM-wise) as all of us, we have nothing to worry about!
Or, according to your logic, if one third world airline flies one city pair, you will be immediately forced to undercut them to survive, be justified in doing so, and sleep well at night knowing you can blame them for all the woes of the profession.
And heads up, here comes open skies. While not cabotage per say, it will for the first time in history open up our international market. Isn't that your bread and butter? Your future? To heck with domestic, sell that to management to give to SkyWest! So how will that work out for you when every European airline in existance can raid any US international city pair at will? No matter though, as long as their pilots make as much or more than you, you will be fine with it even if they take over then entire international network, but a single Air China route will immediately call for deep concessions, right?
I never said any of the aircraft you mentioned above was "just an RJ." I have no idea what you're talking about.
Your pilot group sold/gave away that flying to management, and the VAST majority of it was outside of bankruptcy. You can't permit that flying to be outsourced to the virtual ACMI operator with the lowest costs immaginable and then act all righteously indignant about JB's 190 pay. It was your pilot group (marching in lockstep with others) who gave away almost 50% of your respective airline's block hour flying for "regional wages" in jets just one plug away from the 190, and even the common type in the first place. For you to then cry foul that JB flies the 190 for more than what you allow the same plane with a plug missing to be outsourced for much less is extremely disingenuous and you know it. Get your flying back and we'll talk. But you won't and we both know it.
The E190 that JetBlue flies is a 100 seat 737/DC-9 sized aircraft- not an "RJ" sized aircraft.
As opposed to the 170/175/700/705/900 that is just a coupole rows different in size and the same type that YOU allow to be outsourced for less, which somehow
IS a "regional jet"? Really? Are you serious about that? AYFKM?
But OK, you argue that the E190 has a seating capacity slightly less than the average 737 and probably something resembling DC-9 seating capacity. So the E190 rates should have been something slightly less than whatever 737/DC9 guys were earning, but certainly not 70 bucks an hour!!! I find it amazing that you are rationalizing that JetBlue's current E190 rates were/are a fair rate considering the seating capacity of this aircraft compared to similarly sized aircraft at other major airlines.
I've said all along the 190 paid too little, but legacy airlines take a large share of the blame for that because before the first (busted up POS) 190 came on property at JB, every legacy already outsourced jets almost as big as the 190 for "regional wages". Even now your entire arguement hinges on the remaining 737's (all small 737's) that UAL still has (and has threatened to dump on a dime) and its common pay with your 320 as part of your concession package. So JB comes up with a regional rate and USAir and Delta can't pounce on 10 year contract (which is the timetable including fake negotiations by the company) rates for that plane themselves (which they didn't even operate at the time). According to your logic, legacy management should forgoe one bonus and all chip in to buy a single 777 for JetBlue, and then that entire pay table can be decimated as well.
So the 190 should pay 737 rates because its only slightly smaller, but its okay for you to outsource the 170 for regional rates even though its only slightly smaller? So what you're saying is no one but you is rightfully allowed to do what you define as undercutting? Right. Get your flying back. Seriouslly, get it back. Let me guess, too late, not your fight? Thank God CAL and AA don't share your sense of helplessness.
UAL management doesn't have the right to outsource anything bigger than the E170. And they're limited to 70 seats. And the sideletter that allowed the E170 in particular was a tactical error on our union leadership's part that may be reversible in '09.
It is most definately reversable, the ONLY issue is how hard are you willing to fight for it? And in any case, the 700 (RJ) still seats as many. And any larger RJ that is certified to seat more than 70 but only seats 70 (or 76 ala Delta Connection) is still measured in what it is certified to seat. A 90 seater is still a 90 seater, etc. Putting a first class in it and bragging that you kept the seats down with your scope is the joke of the century. I can just see management now "oh please don't throw us into the briar patch by forcing us to install a premium revenue generating first class in oursourced jets we farm out with your permission to the lowest bidder!"
