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ATTENTION all JetBlue Pilots

  • Thread starter Thread starter SNOWBUM
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Probably a strange question but here it goes..

Even when JB pilots unionize (which I've always expected).. Why wouldn't they be stapled below any seniority list if a merger or buyout occured?

They were not a union carrier when they started employment at JB, so why would they deserve anything less than a staple?

I imagine that a buyout or merger is still a long way away, but it is something to think about.

I have come to the conclusion that pilots, as a whole, would hit their grandmothers over the head with a shovel if they thought it would help them make captain sooner, or make an extra buck, or have another day off, or get the holidays off. Then, they would try and justify it somehow. So, union or not, the best the B6 pilots could hope for would be a staple job.
 
Remember GP, you can CONTRACT through ALPA to get those services, while still retaining your autonomy.

What an in-house union lacks is the war chest if/when it becomes necessary to take it to the mat (legal work action).

You can get the services you need without coughing up a big assessment, although your initial dues might be higher than standard ALPA dues for a couple of years to build a contingency fund, but I'm a firm believer in in-house unions that retain ALPA legal services and aeromedical among others...
 
Well said Blue Bayou and A350,
I agree 100 %. Were not ready for a union, maybe a few years down the road, but for now... I will never vote for one. I been in a house union and ALPA, and neither were worth a sh$t....

You dont think we are ready for a union? Are you nuts? Our merger language is a joke, the company changes scheduling rules on a whim, our medical is the worst of any pilot group, etc.
 
I have come to the conclusion that pilots, as a whole, would hit their grandmothers over the head with a shovel if they thought it would help them make captain sooner, or make an extra buck, or have another day off, or get the holidays off. Then, they would try and justify it somehow. So, union or not, the best the B6 pilots could hope for would be a staple job.

Seniority integration, like pay, days off, respect, and (sometimes) nookie on the overnights, you don't always get what you deserve, but rather what you negotiate.

The TWA pilots didn't "deserve" to have a large percentage of their pilots stapled, but with negotiated away merger language, that was all they got. The furloughed USAir pilots didn't "deserve" to be stapled but what they negotiated was a certain process with binding arbitration at the end and the arbitrator rules that since they didn't bring an active job to the table they should be on the bottom. Both those groups were ALPA.

One of the things I heard USAPA is trying to put in its bylaws and all future contracts is DOH as the only possible merger outcome. But that has to first ne negotiated (and paid for) with management and my guess is that will be severely expensive, if possible at all, to negotiate because it stands to tie manaement's hands by potentially making "the next" merger (and we all know there will be one) even that more difficult to make reality.

It doesn't matter what one "deserves" so while you may feel the JetBlue pilots "deserve" to be stapled as either punishment or sacrificed in tribute at the altar of almighty ALPA, in the end it will come down to the contractual language of either the individual JetBlue pilots (who do have contractual merger language, more on that later) or the structure and content of the JBPA merger language, if ratified and a CBA is negotiated.

But even now, the JetBlue pilots are non union, but they all have contracts. While I would prefer a CBA than individual contracts, some pilots (the same ones spearheading the potential future in house union) did take our contracts to a very experienced airline labor law firm and they were told that its good language that will most likely hold up, that there is no legal reason why it wouldn't, but since no court has seen the exact example of a contracted non union pilot group merge with a unionized pilot group with a CBA, the final outcome of an arbitrator's ruling could not be predicted with any certainty. The contracts have a similar end result, Allegheney Mohawk language in them, the ability for JB pilots to be furloughed but if so a lump sum 1 year's furlough pay and full recall rights and language dealing with that kind of scenario.

Some will argue that just because they are individual contracts they will automatically be vaporized by the mighty ALPA vortex generator double super laser cannon, but they are incorrect. A contract is a contract is a contract. If violated, the JetBlue pilots would have to seek legal redress either individually or collectively via class action, and yes that may take a while. But there is no reason why any judge would invalidate the contracts just to stroke off and validate mighty ALPA.

The longer any settlement took, the bigger and more expensive the payout for the company, and the more painful the resulting seniority integration would be since it would be retroactive, especially for future new hires at the offending airline in question. And I don't really see any company gifting ALPA the courtessy, respect, money or fear in the first place of intentionally violating legal contracts just to quench their beloved ALPA pilot's thirst for merger blood.

If anything, the two companies would be operated seperately until a common list/contract which would not bode well for any ALPA group in any position to buy, take over, acquire or merge with JetBlue, so most likely any ALPA group would be pushing just as hard as the JetBlue pilots (probably harder) for a quick resolution.

Again, I would rather have a CBA for a billion reasons, 999 million, 999 thousand and 999 of them being stand alone airline related. If a takeover situation were to happen, it would be far more simple to have one CBA than 2000 contracts, but if it meant defending one's entire career, simple is convienient, but not at all necessary.
 
Remember GP, you can CONTRACT through ALPA to get those services, while still retaining your autonomy.

What an in-house union lacks is the war chest if/when it becomes necessary to take it to the mat (legal work action).

You can get the services you need without coughing up a big assessment, although your initial dues might be higher than standard ALPA dues for a couple of years to build a contingency fund, but I'm a firm believer in in-house unions that retain ALPA legal services and aeromedical among others...
You can only contract with ALPA for limited services. The full ALPA legal team isn't something that can be contracted for. You can contract for negotiations training, aeromedical, E & FA, etc..., but having the full arsenal of the ALPA Legal department at your disposal isn't something that you can get through a services agreement. Like I said before, any union is better than no union at all, but there is simply no comparison to the resources available through full ALPA membership.
 
You can only contract with ALPA for limited services. The full ALPA legal team isn't something that can be contracted for. You can contract for negotiations training, aeromedical, E & FA, etc..., but having the full arsenal of the ALPA Legal department at your disposal isn't something that you can get through a services agreement. Like I said before, any union is better than no union at all, but there is simply no comparison to the resources available through full ALPA membership.

I know what the pro alpa crowd is going to say to my response but what the heck....

Those resources are not put to effective use for the membership. Period.

What was the vote Congress for Age 65? How many fancy charts have been made up by ALPA National over the years basically telling line pilots every where to bend over and take whatever management has dished out?

ALPA legal? Please. They have neglected scope clauses, alter ego protection, etc... and then look forlornly and say "oops". (oh yeah, its the line pilots fault; despite having these great "resources" every pilot should be an attorney and expert on labor law)

I know, I know the resources are great and cue Rez, its all the moronic line pilots fault for not "being involved". So why should anybody vote in ALPA? Ever?
 
I know what the pro alpa crowd is going to say to my response but what the heck....

Those resources are not put to effective use for the membership. Period.

What was the vote Congress for Age 65? How many fancy charts have been made up by ALPA National over the years basically telling line pilots every where to bend over and take whatever management has dished out?

ALPA legal? Please. They have neglected scope clauses, alter ego protection, etc... and then look forlornly and say "oops". (oh yeah, its the line pilots fault; despite having these great "resources" every pilot should be an attorney and expert on labor law)

I know, I know the resources are great and cue Rez, its all the moronic line pilots fault for not "being involved". So why should anybody vote in ALPA? Ever?


You had better put your lecture shield suit on.
But all in all very nice post.
 
OK, I'll keep the TREAD on target.

Will we have immediate access to an aeromedical division immediately after voting in the union that is staffed by folks whose sole job is to help preserve our jobs?

YES, status quo is preserved, we will continue with Harvey , we can also decided at a later date to hire alap medical services if we think is better and cost competitive.

Will we have immediate access to an experienced legal department whose sole job is to protect our jobs?

yes, swapa and apa outside legal firm has offered us their help pro-bono . once we get going we will keep them and ,of course ,pay them. when it comes to the mundane day to day legal issues we will hire our own lawyer. The alpa lawyers I have worked with that took care of the small companies, l(ike Evrett Barber), are pretty bad indeed, and can't get fired by the MEC. we will have own lawyer that we can fire if he does not perform and we have the ability to pay him

Will we have a big assessment to fund the union? I'm not crazy about coughing up a few thousand dollars all at once.

No, we are 2,000 pilots, we will have an agency shop and those who refuse to pay dues before cba will have to pay back dues after cba with penalties ( JBPA policy manual section 1)

Even though ALPA may (or may not) be corrupt, I think it is the better way to go. Better than "Hey, we got a union. Now what?". While ALPA does have to sign off on any contract, it is the individual airlines' MEC and membership that will set the tone and specifics of the contract.

there is no way Alpa will get voted at JB. there is a reason why after the wilson poll they did not began campaining.

all the guys involved at JBPA have worked in a lot of committees and BOD,LEC,MEC positoions at ALpa, we are not going to say "now what". we do have a road map and a business plan. we are getting help from other independent union who, I can point, have been more succesfull providing unity than Alpa.

i HAVE NOT HAD BAD EXPERIENCES WITH alpa, BUT WE HAVE A LOT OF GUYS THAT HAVE, WHETHER WRONGFULLY PERCEIVED OR NOT, PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING. ALPA, at this point ,will not win even an interest card campaign at JB. JBPA can and with your help, will. join us and lets park the ALPA idea until it/if becomes necessary.
 
Yeah, great thing the Wilson poll results were announced/published.

Oh wait. They weren't, even though the guys pushing the poll (online at bluepilots.com) said the results would be...

Could it be that the results did not even support a drive for JBPA?

Inquiring minds want to know, Snowbum!
 
Yeah, great thing the Wilson poll results were announced/published.

Oh wait. They weren't, even though the guys pushing the poll (online at bluepilots.com) said the results would be...

Could it be that the results did not even support a drive for JBPA?

Inquiring minds want to know, Snowbum!

wilson poll was made by alpa and paid by alpa . they have the data no one else does.
if you think we need a union at JB or if you think we don't, go to the meetings and web site and express your opinion.stay informed.

www.jetbluepilots.org
 
.....
 
You had better put your lecture shield suit on.
But all in all very nice post.

Better yet.... why don't you explain in objective and critical detail why it is a good post...

Saying "yeah what he said" is easy...
 
The accuracy of his post bothers you this much?

his post are anecdotal and rhetorical. Pure personal opinon without critical thought or academic reasoning..

I am suggesting that you seek out your own understanding instead of simply taking "crewroom" stories as fact.
 
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his post are anecdotal and rhetorical. Pure personal opinon without critical thought or academic reasoning..

I am suggesting that you seek out your own understanding instead of simply taking "crewroom" stories as fact.


You mean like that "story" of Prater's $7500/ month living allowance you asked me to prove, which I did, to which you never bothered to respond too? Say what you want, but the reality of today's ALPA was summed up very nicely.

REZ, ALPA has dug a hole so deep of mistrust with the membership even apologists and ALPAlites like you can't even preach your way out of this situation.

Badgering members only makes you look even more helpless than you already are.
 
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