ATP written (still current?)

[skytrucker]

Any 135 guys know if yout ATP written stays (endifinately) current while you are working under part 135 rules? I read the reg. on this, and I'm still confused. Anyone with past experience on this, let me know.

thanks

 

[avbug]

Your knowledge report doesn't stay current. However, you may take the practical test with an expired knowledge report for the ATP, so long as you are employed by a certificate holder under Parts 121, 125, or 135, and you have completed the PIC qualification training program for your employer.

If you are assigned as SIC, but have completed the PIC qualification training program, this applies. The knowledge report may be used, even though expired...so long as you remain employed by the certificate holder. You do not need to be a captain or pilot in command.

If you are assigned as SIC and have not completed the PIC qualification training program for your company, this does not apply. The knowledge report may not be used once expired.

 

[HAL]

One other note - you must have been employed with the carrier continuously from the day you take the test. Any breaks in employment and the situation described above doesn't apply.

HAL

 

[Bluto]

You sure about that Hal? The way I read the reg it simply states that you can take the test with an expired report if you are employed by a 135, 121, etc. carrier at the time of the *practical* test. It doesn't seem to say anything about when you took the knowledge test. Anyone care to comment?

 

[flydog]

I disagree with Hal. There is no reference to any breaks in employment. As long as you are employed by a 135 or 121 carrier as Avbug stated you can take the test with an expired knowledge test report

 

[pilotyip]

current test

The test must be valid on the first day of employment and remains valid as long as the employee remains employed at the same Part 135 or 121 carrier. The part 135 test can also be used for a part 121 ATP. We had a DA-20 F/O who took the 135 ATP written, but bid the DC-9 before making Captain, 3 years later he became a Captain on the DC-9 and used his part 135 ATP written. FAA said OK.

 

[skytrucker]

Clear as mud...

I'm hoping that one of you who replied to the post will check it again...

I took the ATP written before I was hired by the company. The written will be no longer current after june. I am still employed by the same company and am PIC for an aircraft the doesn't require an ATP.

1. If I went somewhere else to get my ATP practical (ALL ATP's) after june, would they accept the non-current written?

2. If I upgrade to an aircraft that requires an ATP through the company and compleate the qualification training program, then the non-current ATP written can be used? (I think that's a YES)


Thanks again for the previous posts. Hopefully someone can clear up these details for me.

 

[AWACoff]

And what about it staying legit for furloughed guys? I took my ATP written while at Lakes. It was still valid when I went to Air Willy...but then I was furloughed. It sounds like when I get recalled, I can use the expired knowledge test when I upgrade...just want to clarify this.

 

[avbug]

There appears to be some confusion on this issue. The purpose of 61.39(b) is to recognize the role of ongoing employment training while working under a certificate holder...for whom the ATP is required when acting as PIC.

The rule allows an individual who has a current knowledge report when hired, to use that report when it expires...so long as the employee is still employed with that same employer. The employment must be continuous. An employee on furlough is no longer employed (despite allowances for seniority numbers, etc). An employee on furlough is not granted ongoing proficiency or currency training, checkrides, line checks, etc. A furloughed employee is no longer employed by the certificate holder, and does not enjoy the protections with respect to the knowledge report, as outlined in 61.39(b).

If at any time an employee loses his or her employment, or changes to a different certificate holder, the test may no longer be used. A current test result must be obtained.

One way to think of it is that your employer is "keeping your results alive" by keeping you employed. If you are let go, furloughed, quit, change to a different operator, etc, your benifit ceases. You must have a new test result.

If it's been two years, you should probably study and retake the test anyway. There is nothing wrong with study, and from a practical point of view, interviews are often molded around the ATP written test in many respects. Many professionals keep a copy of the ATP written study guides available and current, even though they have their ATP already.

 

[avbug]

Skytrucker,

To answer your question, if you had a current knowledge test report when hired, and it has expired during the course of your employment, but you are still employed by the same certificate holder, then yes, you may use the report. You may use it during upgrade training within the company if you are granted an ATP ride in conjunction with your type or upgrade training (a paperwork issue largely, but a necessary formality). You may use it at a private vendor, such as ALL ATP's.

If you use an outside vendor, you must have completed the pilot-in-command qualifcation program established by your company. Again, if you are a SIC but have completed this training program, you may use the expired results. If you are an SIC but have not completed this program, you may not.

Simply being employed by the certificate holder does NOT provide protection for your knowledge exam report. 61.39(b)(1)(i) specifically identifies completion of the company pilot-in-command aircraft qualification training program. Your training records must reflect this.

If you take your practical test with a vendor, you will need verification of continuous and ongoing employment under 121, 125, or 135. This documentation should accompany your 8710 on application. You may use various forms of evidence, from a letter on company letterhead attesting to your employment, to pay stubs, to copies of training records or other such documentation. You may also use your logbook.

As stated above, you must not only show evidence of employment, but of completion of the certificate holder's PIC aircraft qualification training program. If you meet these criteria and can show them satisfactorily, then you may use the expired report. If not, then the report will do no good.

 

[skydiverdriver]

I thought the report had to expire while you were employed under 121 or 135. When you took it doesn't matter. It's the expiration date we are talking about here.

 

[avbug]

Okay, last time.

The report never need expire. It's better to take the practical with a current test, and with the material fresh in your mind. However...

You take the test. You get employed by a 121, 125, or 135 carrier. The test expires.

So long as you stay employed with THAT carrier, you may still take the practical test.

You get furloughed. Test is no good.

You move to a different carrier. Test is no good.

You quit or get fired. Test is no good.

When you take the test makes no difference. It never made any difference. Forget the date you take the test.

The issue is the validity of an expired test result. It is only valid if you are working for a 121, 125, or 135 carrier at the time of expiration, and it only stays valid during the course of your employment. If there is a break in employment, a change to a different operator, or a furlough, then the test ceases to be "good."

 

[skytrucker]

blinded by the light...

AVBUG

I see the light! (Actually about three post's ago) Thanks for clearing that up.

Are you a DE? If not, ever thought about becoming one? You give out a lot of good free advise. Maybe we should be paying you.


thanks again

 

[A Squared]

Alright, I've been following this thread and I have to put my oar in the water.

Avbug (and HAL and Pilotyip) You claim that in order to use an expired knowledge test you must have been employed when it expired, and employed continuously since then. I have read all the posts very carefully, and I have read 61.39(b) very carefully. I cannot find anything in the text of 61.39(b) which supports these statements. I have included the complete text of 61.39(b) below. The relevant part reads:

".........provided that the applicant:

(1) Is employed as a flight crewmember by a certificate holder under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter AT THE TIME OF THE PRACTICAL TEST and........." (emphasis added)

This clearly establishes a requirement to be employed at the time of the test, but there is nothing that states, or even remotely hints that the employment must have been continuous. There is nothing that says "....must have been employed at the time the knowledge test expired....." OR ".......employment must have been continuous.....", or "...must have been employed by the same certificate holder....."

None of this appears in the regulation. The text of the regulation is simple, clear and to the point. It says "...employed by......at the time of the practical test....", nothing more, nothing less. The only other condition requires completion of the PIC training program.

If you beleive that the employment must be continuous, by the same carrier, since the knowledge test expired, that belief must be based on something other than the text of the regulation. The only valid sources would be a FAA Chief Counsel interpretation, or case law. Can any of you quote an FAA legal counsel opinion, or judicial decision which supports you decision? Is there perhaps another regulation which is relevant that I have missed? If not, I beleive that you are incorrect, as the regulation, as it is written, does not support your statements.


Regards




61.39(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a)(1) and (2) of this section, an applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate or an additional rating to an airline transport certificate may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report, provided that the applicant:

(1) Is employed as a flight crewmember by a certificate holder under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved --

(i) Pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; and

(ii) Qualification training requirements appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; or

(2) Is employed as a flight crewmember in scheduled U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test, and has accomplished the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought.

 

[tdvalve]

A Squared, IHMO you're correct. Part 61 USED to require continuous employment at a 121 or military operation, etc. Avbug is correctly defining the requirements that existed before the regulation was revised. I believe the continuous employment requirement was deleted in 1997, although it may have been earlier.