ATP Seminole Crash

[Kaman]

Hello,
I did a portion of my training with ATPs in Jax, and I never heard of or observed anyone doing instruction from the backseat. I cannot say with 100% certainty, but I don't think that their insurance would permit that. However, it wasn't uncommon to have an observer aboard.
I only saw a brief clip on FOX, but based on the appearance of the wreckage, it appears that the airplane impacted in a flat attitude with the direction of rotation to the left. It was my experience that Vmc demo in the Seminole was very benign and when done correctly the airplane would stall before loss of directional control.
Bottom-line is that I was in shock seeing the ATP logo on the tail of the wreckage. I am deeply saddened and my family's thoughts and prayers are with the lost pilots families.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[dav8or]

I met Josh on friday when I took my ATP written @ RDU he was very professional. We talked about his career track and the industry.

I instructed with Irene at RUQ back in the day. She was an accomplished pilot and instructor. Her dog went everywhere with her and probly had more flight hours than I did. The last time I saw Irene was at Sun and Fun, just walking up the vendor isles and there she was with the dog in here purse. They'll all be missed.

Everybody fly safe.

 

[prodigal]

ATP

I went through ATP's career pilot program in the summer of 2000 and at that time there was NO instruction being done from the backseat. My understanding was that it had been stopped sometime shortly before that time frame.
I feel for those lost and for the families. Please let this be a reminder again complacence.
God Bless.

 

[SkySpray]

Since we're on the topic, here's a case where backseat instructing wasn't a very good idea. I just don't understand.

www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020702X01027&key=1

I wonder if this will motivate the FAA to do something about backseat instructing.

 

[LearLove]

The news reported wrong as always. The instructor was not in the back giving instruction. Our/my friend was in the back seat observing for her Comm Multi ride. Beth was awsome person and I miss her already.

Including military, commercial and GA flying Beth is the 10th person I've known personally or professionally that is now lost to aviation. The second person this year and 5th in the last five.

 

[Cadillac]

no backseat instructing

I did my ratings and instructed with ATP, and there was never any backseat instruction that I knew of. Its my understanding that they used to do it that way, XC with all 3 pilots logging PIC, but the FAA put a stop to it.

Very sad. My experience was that they were very standardized and professional, even though we were very fresh instructors for the most part.

What I don't understand is the dog. . .

 

[172driver]

Almost impossible to Vmc roll a Seminole unintentionally. Even with full control inputs held, the plane will recover itself. A SE stall/spin on the other hand would be a lot easier to induce.

 

[SigAV8R]

I finished ATPs Career Pilot program in February of this year. All of my instruction was done from the front seat. I don't know of any instruction which was done from the back seat. It's a shame this had to happen to ATP b/c I believe the program is an excellent start for career oriented people. When I went through the MEI part of the program, they were VERY specific about teaching Vmc demos and recovering at "first sign" of any stall indications. Being an ATP alum, I'm obviously bias. My prayers go out to the families of the people on board.

 

[EMcx2]

Has any one here spun a Seminole? Is it unrecoverable? I know a couple of people who have done full VMc rolls in them and they both said they lost 2,000 feet recovering.

I did my COM ME at ATP and training at

 

[350DRIVER]

Has any one here spun a Seminole? Is it unrecoverable?

I don't think you are going to find too too many that are going to do a spin in a airplane that is not approved for spins, I may be wrong but I don't think a seminole is approved for spins.

God Bless them

3 5 0

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
You are indeed correct that the PA-44-180 is not approved for spins. I cannot think of any light twins that are, and spinning one intentionally is someting that only a factory/NASA test pilot would ever attempt. And in doing so the aircraft would be fitted with a spin chute and the pilot provided with a "quick-action" egress capability and parachute.
What is so ironic is that I know one of the last guys that Josh trained before this mishap. He said that he was a very good instructor, so time and investigation will hopefully lead to some answers to keep anyone out of potential "coffin corner".

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[bigD]

I don't have any real Seminole time - is there a good, noticable buffet before the stall? In the Duchess, the stall horn will go off well before the buffet, but even the buffet is very noticable, and you kind of have to work to get it past the buffet and into a full stall.

When doing Vmc demos, there have been a couple of times where I've had the horn go off before I've run out of rudder authority, and the one time the horn didn't go off, I recovered upon feeling the buffet. Still, there seemed to be ample warning to pull the good engine to idle before any kind of stall. Is it easier to be caught off guard in the Seminole?

I realize this accident could have had nothing to do with this - my post is more just an independant question. I do Vmc demos a lot when I practice, and am curious.

 

[Kaman]

Hey BigD,
It sounds like the Vmc charcteristics of the Duchess and Seminole are quite similar. One would have to almost intentionally ignore all the airframe of the incipient stall let alone the stall warning horn and allow the airplane to enter a spin. Typically, if Vmc is performed correctly the Seminole will stall first with ample warning.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[rjcap]

Typically, if Vmc is performed correctly the Seminole will stall first with ample warning.

That will depend on power output of the Lycoming engine which is dependent on pressure altitude.

If you carry three adults and a load of fuel you can get the CG somewhat to the rear of this plane. Add to that a lower power output of the operating engine then you can easily stall this plane before it Vmc's. I can only guess the stall recovery was not quick enough which allowed for the aircraft to begin a rotation around the yaw axis resulting in a flat spin that was unrecoverable. Just a guess.


signed,

exATP instructor.

 

[wickedpilot]

If you carry three adults and a load of fuel you can get the CG somewhat to the rear of this plane

and not to mention a dog!....terrible story.

God Bless them/families/friends

 

[ShawnC]

The dog sounds like one of those little lap dogs. From a post above.

 

[FutureRJPilot]

This makes me feel very un-easy as I just did my first Vmc demo a week ago, didn't think it was a big deal until reading this post, scary stuff.

 

[EagleRJ]

Has any one here spun a Seminole? Is it unrecoverable?

If anyone has, and if it wasn't, they won't be on this message board, will they? Think about it! ;-)

The Seminole is a fairly docile twin. With plenty of rudder authority and no tip tanks to increase spin inertia, I would think it would recover from a spin normally. The key though, as on any twin, is remembering to reduce the operating engine to idle first.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

If memory serves correctly (less and less these days) no civilian twin has to be flight tested for spin characteristics at all. If you spin one you are now the test pilot. I've heard a number of stories of the end of Barrons because of this. So far I've not heard of anyone entering a spin in a Barron and surviving. Don't know of anyone ever getting into a spin in the Seminole or Ducthess.

 

[WrightAvia]

this accident brings to mind a different crash that stood out to me when I heard about it. even with exceeding gross weight the guy should have been able to make a power reduction on the good engine and make a good glide to an off airport landing. You'd think? It's a few years old, but it's a good read.


http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001208X08959&ntsbno=CHI98FA028&akey=1