ATN ALPA Recalls Move Forward

[SWA Bubba]

That's exactly right. This is a waste of time and money. We're going to drop $10,000 for a vote that very well might fail to recall anybody, and if it is successful, the only thing we've accomplished is create an MEC that is nearly half vacant for a month and half during some very busy times. And then, after new elections, we'll have three brand new reps who have probably never done any union work before, and won't have a clue what they're doing.

But this is AirTran. We don't do union stability. We do infighting. As much as I'm an ALPA supporter, I actually look forward to SWAPA membership. It's not about the union, it's about the pilot group. You guys have a very unified and organized pilot group, and SWAPA is successful as a result. Our pilots will do well to see how a truly unified group can make things work.

No, ALPA National didn't give any advice one way or the other on the first deal. They merely gave the pros and cons and let the reps decide. That's how ALPA works. It isn't big brother telling you how to handle your local business.

Good question, PCL. Obviously, it's AAI ALPA's business and not ours, but perhaps you might consider this: If those guys push for, and succeed, in a recall effort, it may have a positive short term effect even though it obviously will have little lasting effect as AAI pilot integrate. Perhaps it will be seen as a good sign to the part of SWA pilots who are pissed off. You know what I mean? There are a group of SWA pilots who feel Airtran (or at least ALPA) was "greedy" in wanting more than SL-9 offered (not to rehash that argument, but keep in mind their perspective), and maybe a recall effort will get them to change their minds. It certainly will send a message that the "average" Airtran guy is more "reasonable" than what they perceive ALPA to be. If that actually helped poeple get along for the future, it might be judged to be money well-spent. A small positional scapegoat sounds better than an entire institutional scapegoat. Who knows? Just a thought.

And besides, why worry about the money? First of all, you HAVE to spend it in this case. It's what unions are required to do; that's the point of representational organizations. Plus, as I understand it, you guys send your dues to ALPA national, and they provide money back to you to operate your business. Right? A little less than half of your contribution is pretty normal, from what I've been told. It's not as though you're gonna' get that money back from national if you don't hold a recall, right? You may as well spend as much as of ALPA's money as you can. Otherwise it stays at ALPA national, and in theory could be used by another ALPA carrier to fight you (us) in the future. Hell, you should be using ALPA money to buy every Airtran guy flag ties and white-striped epaulettes, and whatever else you can think of.

And don't worry; SWAPA people bitch a lot as well, but we seem to make it work out for the most part.

Bubba

PS Personally, I just want to keep all that money from helping Fubijaakr in any way. Other than providing him with enough money to pay his gambling debts, that is.

 

[madjack]

Dumbest decision in airline union history: not sending AIP1 out for a vote...greed and hubris cost the tranny's 100s of millions...a crime...

 

[GuppyWN]

But this is AirTran. We don't do union stability. We do infighting. As much as I'm an ALPA supporter, I actually look forward to SWAPA membership. It's not about the union, it's about the pilot group. You guys have a very unified and organized pilot group, and SWAPA is successful as a result. Our pilots will do well to see how a truly unified group can make things work.

When you have a strong company that takes care of it's employees it's easy to have a unified pilot group.

Gup

 

[rudder]

In SL9, SWAPA offerred nothing. It was GK that brought the cheque book.

In SL10, SWAPA is offering something (how much is a matter of opinion) but GK put his cheque book away.

Was it about the principle or the money? Or was is about the principle of the money?

Either way the matter moved forward and the lesson learned is that decisions have consequences. An AT no vote will not bring back SL9. But perhaps a SWAPA no vote will.

This ain't over yet.

 

[dicko]

I heard ALPA National said "take the first deal, the second deal is going to be worst"

That's incorrect.

Think about it for a moment; Given everything you know about ALPA National, their lawyers and the recent TWA lawsuit. Do you really think they said "take the deal" ?

 

[Gino230]

Funny thing is, ALPA hasn't said a thing. The only info we have gotten is from our merger committee members.

After SL9 was voted down, MEC members have been in hiding. Literally.

Who cares about the $10,000 to do a recall vote? The money has already been collected by ALPA National and we're never getting it back. Expecting those MEC reps to suddenly develop good judgement and make a good decision on our behalf after what they did is pure insanity. I don't want them making any decision for me- even if it's suggesting to Gary where to put the new toilets in the new crew lounge.

Speaking of ALPA National, they have been completely useless to us- they advised us on a process agreement that it took SWA / SWAPA about 15 days to circumvent; In the two months since SL9 everyone in every cockpit on the line has had but one question for ALPA...."Can we please have a legal opinion?" And with all of that dues money and high priced, experienced attorneys did we EVER see one? NO.

It's pretty much over barring some unforeseen event, so let's just get on with it and get back to the business of flying airplanes. I'm not happy about this deal, I'm sure many of my SWA counterparts are not either. At the end of the day we will all work at one of the best and most successful airlines in the world. Break open that 12 pack, it's time to move on.

 

[PCL_128]

When you have a strong company that takes care of it's employees it's easy to have a unified pilot group.

Gup

Very true.

 

[OldManPilot]

I am so mad about them not sending out the last one for a vote I can hardly see straight. The whole lot of them should be recalled. They cost me more than 100k with their stupid decision. I'm in the bottom 450 and did I get anything to show for it being turned down? No, not a damn thing. Stapled again. It just cost me a lot of money. So much for being represented.

 

[SWA/FO]

Think about it for a moment; Given everything you know about ALPA National, their lawyers and the recent TWA lawsuit. Do you really think they said "take the deal" ?

Just typing what I heard.

 

[Full of LUV]

Good question, PCL. Obviously, it's AAI ALPA's business and not ours, but perhaps you might consider this: If those guys push for, and succeed, in a recall effort, it may have a positive short term effect even though it obviously will have little lasting effect as AAI pilot integrate. Perhaps it will be seen as a good sign to the part of SWA pilots who are pissed off. You know what I mean? There are a group of SWA pilots who feel Airtran (or at least ALPA) was "greedy" in wanting more than SL-9 offered (not to rehash that argument, but keep in mind their perspective), and maybe a recall effort will get them to change their minds. It certainly will send a message that the "average" Airtran guy is more "reasonable" than what they perceive ALPA to be. If that actually helped poeple get along for the future, it might be judged to be money well-spent. A small positional scapegoat sounds better than an entire institutional scapegoat. Who knows? Just a thought.

And besides, why worry about the money? First of all, you HAVE to spend it in this case. It's what unions are required to do; that's the point of representational organizations. Plus, as I understand it, you guys send your dues to ALPA national, and they provide money back to you to operate your business. Right? A little less than half of your contribution is pretty normal, from what I've been told. It's not as though you're gonna' get that money back from national if you don't hold a recall, right? You may as well spend as much as of ALPA's money as you can. Otherwise it stays at ALPA national, and in theory could be used by another ALPA carrier to fight you (us) in the future. Hell, you should be using ALPA money to buy every Airtran guy flag ties and white-striped epaulettes, and whatever else you can think of.

And don't worry; SWAPA people bitch a lot as well, but we seem to make it work out for the most part.

Bubba

PS Personally, I just want to keep all that money from helping Fubijaakr in any way. Other than providing him with enough money to pay his gambling debts, that is.

Bubba,
You are clueless on the finance structure of ALPA. The more you post the more ignorant you appear. For you and everyone like you that believes ALPA national is the power and everyone else is just puppets, you are wholly incorrect. Airtran pilots make the decisions for airtran pilots. ALPA national just maintains the professionals that give advice legal and accounting.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Bubba,
You are clueless on the finance structure of ALPA. The more you post the more ignorant you appear. For you and everyone like you that believes ALPA national is the power and everyone else is just puppets, you are wholly incorrect. Airtran pilots make the decisions for airtran pilots. ALPA national just maintains the professionals that give advice legal and accounting.

Thank you. You are correct, Sir.

 

[GuppyWN]

This message is hidden because Fubijaakr is on your ignore list.

Who farted?

Gup

 

[flynvixen]

Amateur hour, again.

Sure do wish we had a management lap dog, like SWAPA has GK. Apparently he fights the battles for them.

It only matters that we win not you......dont forget the company runs the company not the greedy unions......look what ALPA has done to your JV airline as well as the rest of the industry IE.....United, et al

 

[madjack]

FV,

Rudely put, but nonetheless factual:

"dont forget the company runs the company not the greedy unions......look what ALPA has done to your JV airline as well as the rest of the industry IE.....United, et al"


The AAI pilots lost hundreds of millions of dollars due to the greed of 7 MEC members and a couple hundred vocal pilots...I predict SWA will be forgiven by AAI pilots but the silent majority will harbor ill will towards their MEC members and those vocal pilots that shot the first deal down...

 

[bravodude]

That's exactly right. This is a waste of time and money. We're going to drop $10,000 for a vote that very well might fail to recall anybody, and if it is successful, the only thing we've accomplished is create an MEC that is nearly half vacant for a month and half during some very busy times. And then, after new elections, we'll have three brand new reps who have probably never done any union work before, and won't have a clue what they're doing.

But this is AirTran. We don't do union stability. We do infighting. As much as I'm an ALPA supporter, I actually look forward to SWAPA membership. It's not about the union, it's about the pilot group. You guys have a very unified and organized pilot group, and SWAPA is successful as a result. Our pilots will do well to see how a truly unified group can make things work.



No, ALPA National didn't give any advice one way or the other on the first deal. They merely gave the pros and cons and let the reps decide. That's how ALPA works. It isn't big brother telling you how to handle your local business.

Who the f are u and what did you do with the real PCL-128. You have never wanted to work at SWAPA and even went so far as to make a statement that if we ever merged you would Quit. Well I guess so much for been a women of your word!

 

[scoreboardII]

bravodude, it's part of the assimilation into the Borg, let it go man.

 

[OldManPilot]

Isn't the gloating a bit over the top?

 

[Fubijaakr]

Isn't the gloating a bit over the top?

Better get used to it. What did you expect from these guys?

 

[c9skytrain]

I was at the meeting on Friday. Before the meeting, I would not have known C if I had run over his perfectly moussed head. IMO, he basically admitted he had a huge chip on his shoulder from when ATA was acquired by SWA and the treatment they received.

I felt he used his position in the union to carry out a personal vendetta and he used our pilot group to do it. The other two, J and H were as Stalin would say, "useful idiots". I actually voted to keep H. J. on the other hand, needs turn by turn voice commands by gps to walk from the living room to the bathroom.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,
You are clueless on the finance structure of ALPA. The more you post the more ignorant you appear. For you and everyone like you that believes ALPA national is the power and everyone else is just puppets, you are wholly incorrect. Airtran pilots make the decisions for airtran pilots. ALPA national just maintains the professionals that give advice legal and accounting.

You said, "the more you post" [about] "the finance structure of ALPA." Hmmm.. Let's see... the most recent post you quoted makes a total of uh... exactly ONE post I've made about ALPA's finances. Plus I posted a list of bullet points on a different thread, that I clearly listed as someone else's work. Did ALPA not teach you to count above one?

Okay, suppose you tell us how ALPA finances work. What I said was what other ALPA people have told me it works (you know, ones that aren't currently SWA-haters). Do you not send your dues to national? Do they then not provide you with capital to pay for operations? How's it REALLY work? Do you keep your money in-house (like SWAPA), but then occasionally send off a voluntary charitable donation to national? I'm assuming someone has to cover Capt Moak's salary and benefits, plus the cost of running the national show. Please enlighten us.

If how other ALPA pilots describe the finances to me is wrong, then fine. Don't spend any money, don't actually do anything with your union dues, don't try to get your money's worth. I don't actually care what your union does, although it is sometimes interesting and/or amusing to watch. I was trying to lighten up the mood. Like I said in my one post, it's your business (at least until the last AAI guy is absorbed and that particular chapter of ALPA ceases to provide dues to national, and winks out of existence in favor of SWAPA).

If you want to be pissed, then be pissed. That's on you, not me. It's gonna' make the rest of your career not much fun, and probably raise your blood pressure. From the tone of your post, somehow I don't think you're really "Full of Luv." Must be some of that sarcasm stuff...

Bubba

PS Maybe it's time for another thread debating the merits of ALPA vs an in-house union. Or then again, maybe not....