A Squared
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
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spudskier said:again, as mentioned and the way I understand it, a visual approach is a straigh-in approach... if you're coming in from any other direction than from straight on (which the controllers usually vector you for anyway) then make a beeline towards a place that will within one turn, put you on final... anotherwords the shortest route to final approach if not already on the final leg, no 45 to a downwind, go to the airport and land (of course adivse CTAF that you're "x" direction from the airport inbound for a visual runway "x") but this is not standard pattern entry as you would if you were VFR... as I understand it
You understand incorrectly, a visual approach at a non-towered airport is absolutely * NOT* a clearence for a straight in approach. It's especially not a clearence to beeline to a final.
A visual approach is a clearence to proceed for a landing in accordance with the regulations. Now, I am not a "no straight in approach" nazi. I do them frequently, but only in accordance with the regulations.
If you think that a visual approach is approval to ignore traffic pattern regulations you have another think coming. I can show you more than one NTSB decision in which airline pilots were violated for doing exactly that, flying counter to the pattern when cleared for a visual.
PC800 said:"AIM 5-5-11. Visual Approach
a. Pilot.
3. The pilot must, at all times, have either the airport or the preceding aircraft in sight. After being cleared for a visual approach, proceed to the airport in a normal manner or follow the preceding aircraft. Remain clear of clouds while conducting a visual approach."
See the part in red above? You didn't uphold your responsibility to proceed to the airport in a "normal manner"
Right, a normal manner. What's a "normal manner" to join the pattern at a uncontrolled airport?
According to the AIM it's join the down wind on a 45, which is *exactly* what he did. If you're approaching from the opposite side, it is very "normal" to overfly and then do a descending turn to join on a 45 personally, I favor a midfield crosswind entry, but in this situation that would have required descending in the pattern. It is *not* "normal" (according to the AIM) to descend to pattern altitude in the pattern. There are pros and cons. However, for an absolute fact, he still has to comply with 91.127 which mandates turns in accordance with the pattern, whcih means making a legal straight-in (established 5 miles out, which was obviously not possible) or comply with the traffic pattern, which he was.
PC800 said:Unfortunately, I've had to write up more than one pilot who made a 360 to get down/slow down after being cleared for a slam-dunk visual approach at ORD. You just can't do that without advising ATC-- the 360 not only puts the aircraft in the face of the next aircraft in line, but can also cause the aircraft to lose separation with arrivals and/or departures using other runways. If a loss of separation occurs in such a circumstance, it's either a pilot deviation or an operational error-- and I've never seen one declared an operational error.
Ok, the key here is "at ORD", that's a whole different ball game, it's a towered airport with approach services. The AIM specifically addresses that. yes, if you make a 360 for altitude when straight in on a visual for RWY XXX at ORD you probably will cause a loss of seperation, and it will be the pilot's fault. I think what is leading you astray here is you are projecting your experience at ORD to a situation to which it is not applicable.
This wasn't ORD. It was a non-towered airport. Now, as far as I know (and maybe I'm missing something), it's going to be one-in one-out at that airport, If there was a following IFR aircraft it would either be seperated by altitude, or he would be cleared for visual with the traffic ahead in sight, maintain visual seperation.
So for all of you who think this guy was violating something, here's a question: what do *you* think he should have done? (other than cancel or advise ATC, which are good suggestions) Yes he shouldn't have been 5000' feet above the airport at cruise speed, but if anyone here claims they have *never* found themselves a little high and fast and a bit behind the airplane, I'm calling you a liar.
So there you are, 5000 feet *over* your airport. You're cleared for the visual. You're heading east, you're going to land 28. What do you do? how do you get to the runway, while complying with the regulations and the AIM recommedations. Specifically, (but not excusively) comply with 91.127 and the AIM recommendation to enter the pattern *at* traffic pattern altitude?