ATC Benefits

[bob weaver]

Did ATC lose some benefits with the latest contract? I had heard that the pension might not be as good as it once was, any info. would be appreciated.

 

[Nevets]

Did ATC lose some benefits with the latest contract? I had heard that the pension might not be as good as it once was, any info. would be appreciated.

It would take an act of congress to change their pension. The FAA imposed a B scale for the new guys but I don't think much of the "benefits" changed with the IWR.

 

[atl pilot]

All the benefits, including FERS (Federal Employee Retirement System) is the same. The only thing that changed was the new and improved B pay scale.

 

[overqualified]

atl pilot

just curious. can you elaborate on the improved portion of the B scale. I'm not saying this to attack you at all. I'm just curious because a lot of people have been complaining about the new payscale and work rules and I'm curious to hear your side being actively involved. If you want to pm me with the details that is cool too. Your advice is great on here, since you are actively involved.

 

[kf4amu]

Going out on a limb to say he was probably being sarcastic. I got 3 friends that have nothing good to say about the new pay scale.

 

[atl pilot]

Being an old-timer and close to retirement, I am in the old pay scale. What the changes have done to me is limit my pay annual increases that I would have recieved, b/c I am at the top of the pay band. This, in turn, limits my earning potential when figuring out my pension. This is b/c FERS pension is based upon the average of the "highest 3 consecutive years of pay" within your entire career. My annual pay raises have been somewhat lessened (but are not completely gone - as promoted by NATCA) from what they would have been had they not imposed the new pay and work rules....I would have probably earned (maybe) an additional $3-4ooo per year when I retire - not a huge deal.

For someone coming into the FAA now, the B-Scale (if thats what you'd like to call it for simplicity), is very similiar to what we had before "Reclass" happened in 1998. The earning potential is currently smaller, but in a career span of 20-25 years, this new pay scale will increase much like ours did back in the last decade.

If this helps, I copied this explanation and link off another site (ATCMonitor.com), but it all looks correct. This is the New B-Scale data.

FAA Air Traffic Control Pay Scale - 2008

The pay scale for 2008 can be found below. I suggest you print it out so that you can follow along. Make sure your printer is set to landscape.

https://employees.faa.gov/employee_s...o_locality.xls


I know the FAA designed the pay scale to be easy to read (sarcasm spoiler), but I've taken the time to help you understand it better.

On the left side of the page is the Career Level column. This column represents your progression through the training program. It has been divided into five sections described below:

AG: Initial hire pay grade. This is the pay grade that all off-the-street (OFTS) and Collegiate Training Initiative (CTI) students will be paid AFTER they graduate from the FAA Academy in Oklahoma City. Starting pay for those groups is $8.50 an hour. Veteran Military controllers hired under the VRA program will begin this pay grade on the first day of class at the FAA Academy. All Academy students will receive per diem pay to help cover the cost of food and lodging while you are in Oklahoma City.

D1: This is the first pay raise. AFTER you have completed 25% of the training requirements at your duty facility, you will be promoted to this pay band. ARTCC controllers: this is after you are certified on 2-3 D-Sides in your area. Terminal controllers: Sorry...don't have an answer for you.

D2: This the second pay raise. AFTER you have completed 50% of the training requirements at your duty facility, you will be promoted to this pay band. ARTCC controllers: this is after you are certified on ALL D-Sides in your area.

D3: This is the third pay raise. AFTER you have completed 75% of the training requirements at your duty facility, you will be promoted to this pay band. ARTCC controllers: this is after you have completed radar school, and are certified on 2-3 radar positions.

CPC: This is the final pay raise you will receive when you have completed the training program.

Note: If you are an initial hire (all hiring sources) you will always be paid the minimum while in training.

At the top of the pay scale are nine columns numbered from 4 to 12. They represent the facility complexity level. Most ARTCCs are Level 10-12 facilities. When you receive an offer letter, it will disclose the facility level.

Now for an example. Jenny, a VRA hire, has been hired at Atlanta ARTCC (Level-12). On the first day of class at the FAA Academy, she will be paid an annual salary of $33,100 (not including the locality for Oklahoma City). Locality for Oklahoma City is 13.18%. Her total salary will be $37,463. Jenny successfully graduates the FAA Academy, and moves to Atlanta to begin work. On her first day at Atlanta ARTCC, she will be paid $33,100 plus the locality pay for Atlanta (17.3%). Her new total salary is $38,826. Over the course of the next 10 months, Jenny completes the first 25% of the training program and is promoted. Her new total salary is $52,052. During the next 20 months, Jenny completes the training program. Her final salary starts at $91,729 and the maximum she can make is $127,857 (the true amount will be more as locality and pay band levels increase each year). Overall, Jenny is doing pretty well.

I cannot provide examples for the Terminal environment, since I work at ZTL. I don't know what the training time frames are like at those facilities, except that they are shorter that ARTCCs. If you are hired at a Terminal facility you can expect to complete the training program in under 24 months. All facilities (ARTCCs and Terminals) have different training programs, each with its own "bottle neck" and delays. Be prepared for the unexpected.

Here is a list of the 2008 Locality Pay Rates:

Atlanta 17.30%
Boston 22.51%
Buffalo 15.37%
Chicago 23.16%
Cincinnati 17.77%
Cleveland 17.11%
Columbus 15.80%
Dallas 18.74%
Dayton 15.26%
Denver 21.03%
Detroit 22.53%
Hartford 23.97%
Houston 27.39%
Huntsville 14.23%
Indianapolis 13.51%
Los Angeles 25.26%
Miami 19.11%
Milwaukee 16.73%
Minneapolis 19.43%
New York 26.36%
Philadelphia 20.14%
Phoenix 14.74%
Pittsburgh 14.93%
Portland 18.72%
Raleigh 16.82%
Richmond 15.40%
Sacramento 20.25%
San Diego 22.00%
San Francisco 32.53%
Seattle 19.75%
Washington 20.89%

Rest of U.S. 13.18%

If you don't see the city you will be working in or near, then you are in the "Rest of U.S." group.

The old scale is as follows:
https://employees.faa.gov/employee_...dia/Reference B June 11 2006 ATPay Tables.xls


The importanat thing to remember is that the pay bands will grow with each new years cost of living adjustment, so the new will look like the old before long (a decade or so).

Additionally, I just do not know too many jobs where you young folks can get a guaranteed pension PLUS a 401K (we call it TSP - Thrift Savings Plan) with great matching contributions (as an example for the TSP: Right now the max contribution you can make annually is $15,500, since we get paid every 2 weeks or 26 times per year, I contribute $596 per pay period....the FAA then matches it with $245). This money is deposited into your account on pay day, not weeks later (like ASA does to its employees), so it starts earning interest immediately.

Also the medical benefits you will get through govt service are far superior to that in mainstream civillean world. And these too, can be taken into retirement with you while the govt continues to make their contributions. Yes, you will have to pay some, but the choices and coverages and better than what the average bear sees. My sisters constantly whine about how much greater my choices are than theirs working in the private sector.

As for the imposed work rules. Some of the new management methods are a bit aggravating, but you will have this anywhere you go. Business casual attire is required (dockers, polo shirt and loafers are completely acceptable - whats the big deal?), we work a staight 8-hour shift and are alotted a 30-minute break within that 8 for lunch....we can no longer leave the building to eat - carry your lunch - we were always suppposed to be readily recallable during this period if needed anyway, Can't have your cell phone in the working area.....why would you need it anyway? Pay attention to your airplanes, put it in your locker and check for messages on your breaks. Some of the complaining is really silly in my opinion. It really isn't that bad, we just were allowed to be REALLY lax for quit awhile, and now they've reined us in a bit, and people are complaining.

I still love my job. The pay and benefits are great (even under the new band), and for what I do (even at ATL) I get paid really well for not having any deadlines, or work to take home with me. Yes, I have to work shift work. That's a downside but a reality in this industry.

I would encourage anyone who has a desire, to give it a whirl. You will not find a better career, or a career where you can retire and start earning your govt pension at age 50, or younger if you've given 25 years of service before your 50th b-day (I will be eligible to retire 1 month after I turn 48 years old).

The hype is BS. Every job is going to have issues. This one has its fair share, but the pay and benies (incl the retirement) are worth the effort! Don't let the NATCA propoganda machine lead you away from something that can be really profitable for you.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any further questions, I am happy to try any answer them for you!

 

[bob weaver]

Thanks for the info., there is a lot of rumor going around and it was helpful to get some facts.

 

[Nevets]

The fact that the FAA imposed their work rules and B scale is what irks a lot of people. The process didn't require the FAA to negotiate in good faith. If there was a TA and a majority of bargaining unit members ratified it, you wouldn't be hearing the "NATCA propaganda."

Its easy for old timers to say that the B scale is not that bad but since they have benefited from NATCA's ability to get reclass through in 98 (and continue to benefit from that pay scale) its a B scale none the less.

I'm not saying that its not a well compensated career but it would have been better if it weren't for the unfair negotiating process under which the B scale came about.

 

[atl pilot]

That's all true. However, when I entered into this field back in the 1980s, we did not even have any thoughts of Reclass or even NATCA (it didn't exist at the time). Our pay is driven by politics. This too shall come to pass. In the duration of a 20-25 year career there is a lot of room for change and growth, much like we encountered in 1998 with Reclass.

And I will say it again: In today's world I do not know of any job, be it ATC or something else, where you will recieve both a pension and 401K at the end, plus be able to retire at such a young age.

No matter where you work there will always be something you do not like. This is a government job - thats a downside - as everything is politically driven. The republicans will not be in power forever.

 

[Nevets]

That's all true. However, when I entered into this field back in the 1980s, we did not even have any thoughts of Reclass or even NATCA (it didn't exist at the time). Our pay is driven by politics. This too shall come to pass. In the duration of a 20-25 year career there is a lot of room for change and growth, much like we encountered in 1998 with Reclass.

And I will say it again: In today's world I do not know of any job, be it ATC or something else, where you will recieve both a pension and 401K at the end, plus be able to retire at such a young age.

No matter where you work there will always be something you do not like. This is a government job - thats a downside - as everything is politically driven. The republicans will not be in power forever.

Understood, I was just trying to take some of the sugarcoat off your last post.

And I will say it again: its easy for old timers to say that the B scale is not that bad when they continue to benefit from the A scale.

 

[dickburns]

atl pilot, your points are correct, HOWEVER. it's a bit tough to see two FPLs sitting at a sector, the one working the radar is making $85k and the guy sitting on their D is making $160k...or vice versa.

 

[atl pilot]

atl pilot, your points are correct, HOWEVER. it's a bit tough to see two FPLs sitting at a sector, the one working the radar is making $85k and the guy sitting on their D is making $160k...or vice versa.

I've been doing this 25 years. It took me awhile to get there. Even before Reclass you didn't start at the top.

Apples for apples. FOs (new hires at the Regionals) start at about $18,000 per year (on average). Captains who have been around for a decade or so make $90,000+. They do exactly the same thing and sit side-by-side.

We have new hires at ATL Tower who have progressed from the new hire pay (of about $35,000 per year) to FPL rate (of about $90,000 per year) in under 8 months. Yes, there are several of them that have achieved this (10 - 15 of them to be exact since the hiring started about 2 years ago).

Still do not know what the problem is. These people get a pay raise every year that brings them closer to me....that I do not (as I am capped). I worked for TWO DECADES before I broke $100,000. I still think its a good deal.

Jealousy will get you nowhere. The problem is that this new young generation wants it all now. Work for it and it will come. This is true an almost every industry - you cannot and will not start at the top!

In addition, if all you're looking at is the salary, you are very short-sided. The whole package is what you should be looking at. The retirement perks and benies, the medical, etc. I will say it again: In this day and age, I do not know of any other jobs where you can retire at age 50, or before if you've given 25 years of service, and start recieveing a pension PLUS 401K (or TSP in government-ese). If you keep focusing on the one (basic salary), you miss the most important part.

This is STILL a great job. There have always been, throughout my entire career people who were senior to me, making more money siitting right next to me while doing the exact same job. This will happen anywhere you go, and in every indutsry. This is not the same as when you played scoccer as kids, and everyone played, everyone won. This is real life. Its how it works.

 

[atl pilot]

And let me add this, I feel and understand your pain. At the time that Reclass happened in 1998 several folks, (who in my opinion got to keep money and shouldn't have been, were allowed to do so), there were many, many folks out in the system whose level 1 facilities had been privatized (in the mid-1990s) prior to the money changeover. A lot of these folks went from Level 1 towers to level 4 and 5 facilities. Then they washed out of these facilities. When they were reassigned to lower level towers, they were allowed to keep the pay raise they recieved when they went to whatever big-house they were not successful at. I had to work alongside several of these people over the years. While they made in many cases $30 - 40,000 more than I, while doing the same job. I had bid on these facilities that they washed out of over and over all through the 1980s and 1990s, but could never get picked up (and get the associated pay raises) b/c of government bureacracy and stupid rules of the day (most of which are gone now). But these folks were given paid moves, pay raises, and then washed out and got to keep the money. All the while I was senior to all of them. And as a side note, many of these folks will not ever let you forget that were at (chose a facility name) sometime in their career. They neglect to tell you they were a training faiulure. So, working alongside them was such a huge joy!

This is governement. Sometimes you just have to float with the current. I know its frustrating, but while my pilot-husband struggles with his thrird airline in five year (thanks to furloughs), will never see a pesnion, has student loans up the wazoo to pay off, and gets really sh***ty 401K matches from ASA that do not show up in a timely fashion in his account.....I can retire at 48 years of age and make more than he does in a year of flying at ASA just out of my guarenteed FAA pension check.

This is STILL great job. Even with the BS rules and B-scale.

 

[dickburns]

atl-pilot, I fear you've missed my point.

nowhere have I said there is anything wrong with the job, with seniority or anything. the airline system with pay WORKS...a new hire FO makiing $18k knows that if he puts in the same 10 years that captain put in, he'll be at $90k when he gets there.

in atc, it's not currently that way. A dev that gets checked out can compare themself to a 15 or 20 year FPL who's base is $150k and they know, that on the current pay scale, when they hit 15 or 20 years, their base will be $115k or so...THAT is what's bullsh!t! It isn't so much the fact that they make different $ as much as the POTENTIAL and OPPORTUNITY to make that $$ eventually.

You're right, someone with more seniority and experience SHOULD make more $ than the other one, but shouldn't you both be progressing on the same scale? I know of two new-FPLs that go to their facility with 3 months of each other. One got a much earlier radar school than the other, got checked out right before the contract, the other one go checked out a few months after....so here you have two controllers, with ~3 months difference in their FPL dates, and hire dates, making over $30k difference in their pay...that's CRAZY!

 

[atl pilot]

I agree with you. However, when I started we never dreamed that we'd male more than GS-14 money (in 1998 the top of GS-14 was about $87K per year). Then Reclass happpend under a Democratic White House. Never say never. These new people can play their cards well over time and make history repeat itself.

 

[Nevets]

The highest GS pay scale GS 15 Step 10 is higher than the maximum level pay on the ATSPP by far. I think the B scalers would like to back to the GS now. Its not that bad for those on the A scale. Its only bad for those who began on the A scale and then got frozen in that pay scale until the B scale caught up (develepmentals in the transition). They were given a job offer with a set of work rules and pay only for the FAA to unilaterally change the offer on them midstream.

By the way, comparing captains to first officers is more like comparing a develepmental who has only completed their D sides to a CPC. So there is a difference. The captain is the only person who has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight and thus carry the burden of responsibility. There are first officers who make more than captains. Its not about pay - apples to bananas comparison.

 

[dickburns]

atl-pilot,

correct, you didn't know you'd make GS-14 $, but most of the folks that got hired in 2005/2006 received OFFICIAL PAPERWORK saying how much $ they'd make, in accordance with the AT Pay Plan, and they're not longer gonna make that $, that is a slap in the face, and a lie by the faa. instead, they're gonna make less $ (but don't get me wrong, still GOOD $$) and on the current scale, never have a chance of making the same $ as their coworkers.

*that* is messed up.

 

[Cptn2b]

I have some questions about ATC jobs for those who care to reply. I am a 2-year FO at a regional and I am looking to get out due to the unstable nature of the industry. My wife and I would also like to move back to Oklahoma City where we are from. 1. What qualifications do you need to get an ATC job and how do you begin the process? 2. What kind of days off per week/month do you get and what kind of shifts will you work at first? 3. How much vacation time? 4. If I am wanting to live in OKC how much say do I have about where I live and how are the "positions" allocated? Thanks