Ata ?

[cfm56-7]

I wouldn't be surprised to see us use the ATA 737-800 to fill the gates at dfw if and when we take them. just food for thought

 

[SWA/FO]

One thing is for sure, this is not your Father's Southwest Airlines. It appears Gary Kelly is not sitting around.

 

[ATA717Pilot]

Wouldn't work.

For SWA to take ATA's 73-8's and crews in a merger would require taking the FA's as well. SWA couldn't hire enough back-end crews fast enough.

Can you picture ATA FA's actually smiling, treating pax (and crew) nicely and most importantly - having to clean up the airplanes!

Talk about a culture shift.

 

[canyonblue]

Wouldn't work.

For SWA to take ATA's 73-8's and crews in a merger would require taking the FA's as well.

Possibly not. The company wants our productivity to increase from 61 hours per month to 70. Someone mentioned that if that were to happen, we would not need to hire anymore pilots for 2005. No one mentioned what would happen if we were to acquire more airplanes than originally scheduled. That increase in productivity could staff additional airplanes.

 

[Pickle]

What about the fragmentation clause? Maybe the lawyers are in IND trying to find a way around that? Maybe not. The pay concessions LOA for the 717s from this past summer, which included the fragmentation language, expires if no new planes are here in a year. Does the fragmentation clause expire then also? I can't find my copy of that LOA. I will have to do some looking for that.

I know this is getting WAAAAAAAAAYYYYY ahead of the game here, but.....

If SWA does NOT merge the crews in with the airplanes, but only grants preferential interviews, would interviews be assured? What I mean is, what if you don't meet SWA's mins? I am a 737 captain at ATA but I don't have 1000 hours PIC turbine. Would I even be given an interview in this case? Would SWA hire me without the 1000 hours PIC turbine? If not, then why even give me the preferential interview?

 

[Pickle]

Found it..... sort of.....

I found my notes about the fragmentation clause, but not the actual LOA, but here is what I wrote about it.

If company transfers or disposes of aircraft or route authority which produced 30% or more of the company’s operating revenue or 30% or more of the company’s block hours over the past 12 months, the company shall require the transferee to offer employment to all members of the seniority list who are status qualified on the aircraft being transferred. This provision does NOT apply to the L-1011 fleet.

 

[rudderdog]

Didn't Southwest acquire another carrier 10 or 15 years ago? Was it Morris Air or something like that? Anyone know what happened to the crews there?

 

[hopeful]

If company transfers or disposes of aircraft or route authority which produced 30% or more of the company’s operating revenue or 30% or more of the company’s block hours over the past 12 months, the company shall require the transferee to offer employment to all members of the seniority list who are status qualified on the aircraft being transferred. This provision does NOT apply to the L-1011 fleet

If the company sells its assests and goes out of business who are you going to sue?

I think that clause is to keep the airline from selling of peices and operating different A/C etc. and affectively circumventing the contract in place. I don't think it holds any water if the airline ceases operations. Just a guess.

SWA took the crews of Morris air. This caused (and still causes) problems within the ranks as far as SWA culture is concerned. I don't think this type of thing will happen at SWA again. Prefferential interviews, however, allows SWA to pick and choose the crews they want to hire. (people that will fit into the culture at SWA) I believe Morris Air folks were grandfathered for the type ratings etc. and I would imagine if something like this did happen the prefferential interviews would apply to everyone on property at ATA regardless of TPIC or type. Just another WAG. Seniority merger probably won't happen, but those who are succesful in the interview will be hired as "new hires" and will go on the bottom of the seniority list. (I think current capt. may be used and paid as capt. until SWA upgrades enough folks from its current ranks to fill the spots. Then the "interim capt." would revert back to F/O's in their respective seniority order. (I think that is sorta what happened with Morris)

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

We have enough lance captains to cover the excess aircraft, roughly 8% of the fo's are captains. The reason for this program is for times like this.

 

[Metro752]

hmmmmm, A Wreck is a pretty bad @-$$ sandwich at Potbellies, doesn't cost too much either, about the same and McDonalds.

I suggest anyone going through, try one out. Potbellies is good **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**.

 

[Snoopy58]

SWA took the crews of Morris air. This caused (and still causes) problems within the ranks as far as SWA culture is concerned. I don't think this type of thing will happen at SWA again. Prefferential interviews, however, allows SWA to pick and choose the crews they want to hire. (people that will fit into the culture at SWA) I believe Morris Air folks were grandfathered for the type ratings etc. and I would imagine if something like this did happen the prefferential interviews would apply to everyone on property at ATA regardless of TPIC or type. Just another WAG. Seniority merger probably won't happen, but those who are succesful in the interview will be hired as "new hires" and will go on the bottom of the seniority list. (I think current capt. may be used and paid as capt. until SWA upgrades enough folks from its current ranks to fill the spots. Then the "interim capt." would revert back to F/O's in their respective seniority order. (I think that is sorta what happened with Morris)

Morris pilots were all hired and were all stapled to the bottom of the list in (iirc) seniority order per their Morris seniority. They all show up on the SWA list as having the same DOH (that's the tip off that somebody is ex-Morris). The Morris captains were pay-protected, in that their pay rate did not go down from the rate they had at Morris (more than SWA newhire, less than SWA captain), but was static until their payrate on the SWA payscale exceeded it. (Vague recollection from discussions is that this happened around 3rd year FO pay, but I could be wrong.)

For a short time, while the Morris jets were flown by Morris crews under the Morris certificate (but after the whole thing had been bought by SWA), there was a scope-workaround which said essentially "you're all SWA pilots, you're all SWAPA, you're all on the seniority list, and until such time as you're employed at SWA (and flying our jets & procedures under our certificate), you're on leave to go fly at Morris. That way, as the Morris operation drew down, Morris Captains & Morris FO's flew jets with "Morris" painted on the side, but since they were on the SWA seniority list at the time, there was no scope issue of having jets that SWA owned flown by pilots not on the SWA seniority list.

Once the Morris pilots became SWA pilots, however, they were all FO's until they went through captain upgrade.

Would it work the same way now? Hard to say, but my guess is that there would be some changes.

First, the desire to weed out the 10% "bad apples" will be present, not least because that was seen as a serious mistake made during the Morris acquisition. Most of the Morris guys were good people (all of them that I've flown with are, as a matter of fact), but some were simply the wrong fit for SWA. Everything I know about the ATA pilots is that most of them are really great individuals as well, but there are always some troublemakers and SWA will probably want the ability to screen them out.

Second, there is some question of qualifications, in that ATA didn't require 1000 hours turbine PIC nor a 737 type rating. The latter is pretty easy, since everybody who's been flying the 737 for a while can probably get the rating during their initial PC (might require a couple of extra maneuvers FO's don't normally perform, but it won't be much), and SWA typed any Morris guys who came over without the type rating. The fairness issue of the 1000 TPIC is tougher, and it's hard to say how that would play out. I could envision an exception to policy that said we'll interview ATA pilots with as little as ___ TPIC, but guaranteed hiring below our mins is probably a non-starter.

Third, there are pilots at ATA who've been fired from SWA, just as there were at Morris. In the past, they got essentially a "second lease on life" at SWA. Would management consent to doing that again? I don't know.

If SWA doesn't want to hire everyone, what to do with the language that

the company shall require the transferee to offer employment to all members of the seniority list who are status qualified on the aircraft being transferred.

I could see SWA suggesting that "qualified" means meeting SWA qualifications in terms of hours & type rating & TPIC (and giving preferential interviews to the others down to some slightly lower qualification... maybe). I could also see the "offer" being contingent on the usual litany of things... background checks, drug test, etc, and perhaps adding a couple of other contingencies to the list such as "and pass a screening interview." Or there are probably "lawyerly" ways around that clause, like ATA transferring the jets back to a leasing company or Boeing or somebody, who then leases or sells them to SWA. And, at worst, terminations during the probationary year can't be grieved, although I strongly doubt that SWA would use that as a substitute for finding some way to do some screening interviews.

Of course, all this assumes that the deal for the -800's happens, which looks like a definite possibility but (as of 9 AM today, at least) by no means certain. If it does occur, I certainly wish the ATA guys allthe best & hope we see many of them at SWA shortly afterwards. As for the DFW gates & service... that's a whole 'nother can of worms!

Interesting times.

 

[gearup5]

Chicago Express

This all sounds great. So where do the 175+ Chicago Express pilots go when ATA is now the new Southwest. I doubt Southwest needs SF340 feeder planes. Our company seems to think everything is fine.

Jets will be here next year.
(we won't be flying them is the only catch)

 

[pireps]

C8 will fly EMB 170's for Virgin America out of San Francisco. You heard it here first!

 

[ATA717Pilot]

This all sounds great. So where do the 175+ Chicago Express pilots go when ATA is now the new Southwest. I doubt Southwest needs SF340 feeder planes. Our company seems to think everything is fine.

I think now is the time for a serious reality check for all those whose futures are tied to ATA Airlines.

The leadership has already said that the only plan is to cut costs to meet revenue (ie. Downsize).

They can't sustain their current obligations and growth is out of the question.

We have already been advised that the company is out of cash in January.

There is also the debt obligation incurred due to the outstanding bond payments (and the concurrent double-digit interest rates) due in relatively short time.

Do the math.

There is no long term future at ATA unless you are super senior (<300) and don't mind the idea of returning to a charter life.

Now is the time to begin the painful process of securing a new future for yourself.

 

[mt2]

Hey Mav, ya got the number for that truck driver school?

 

[Metro752]

I just started driving the TRACMAs.....who's running 111 tonight, I think I'm gonna push ya out.

 

[lowecur]

C8 will fly EMB 170's for Virgin America out of San Francisco. You heard it here first!

Who's C8? I will assume that's Chautauqua. That's certainly a possibility as they have ordered some unassigned 170's. My guess is nothing will be signed until there is a clear indication of what will happen a UAIR. But anything is possible.

 

[ATA717Pilot]

Who's C8? I will assume that's Chautauqua.

C8=Chicago Express, ATA's wholly-owned regional partner.

 

[N tha jungle]

170's

A regional carrier called Shuttle America is gettting the "unassigned" EMB 170's.

 

[AA717driver]

C8 will fly EMB 170's for Virgin America out of San Francisco. You heard it here first!

THAT'S TOTAL B.S.!!!

Those planes should be on Virgin America mainline, just like JetBlue does it. I'm gonna file a grievance.

Well, I will as soon as I'm hired... TC