ATA employees not allowed in 1st class?

[General Lee]

Gordon Bethune actually flew the new 757s to IAH from Boeing Field (he was the 757/767 Fleet Manager for Boeing before CO)---and he used to sit in First Class---what's your point? Leo Mullin used his own ASA CRJ for his business trips. Fred Reid flew first class on one of our 767s to Venice.....the point is that your employees deserve a break if the seat is empty. If you guys don't want it--then FINE... Bye Bye.

Bye Bye again---General Lee----tired of fighting for a lost cause

 

[NYRANGERS]

Wow. First the LCC's (limited choice carrier) make holding on to a good wage AND quality of life (read days off and duty rigs, etc.) a major (no pun intended) challenge. Now the PILOTS want to eliminate non-rev travel (bit by bit). It seems some of the LCC pilots on this thread have such disdain for legacy carrier pilots that they are willing to give away more benefits inorder to spite the rest of the industry.

I've lost most hope for this industry, but it will be amusing to see how some of these guys and gals get to work (if they commute on their own carrier). We shall see how much more revenue this produces........it also shows what ATA thinks of their employees.....not socialy adjusted to sit next to a passenger who is sitting in first.

I guess I don't really care what kind of perks ATA or any other LCC has.......it's just that it's getting real hard to hold on to what we (major's) have as a direct result of what some pilots and managements are doing.

Sad industry, when pilots are as big a drag on this profession as some managments.

NYR

 

[Noam]

Poor, poor, General Lee. If only he used his energies for the common good.

If I recall, I've been "bumped" off Delta flights that were only 20% full because Delta only takes one jumpseater. In fact, it just happened a few weeks ago. Delta's first class is absolutely wonderful, but if another jumpseater beats you to the gate, bummer...you are stuck in Hot'lanta for the night gang bangin' with Ludacris and eatin' som' good fried chick'n.

We aren't going to give the General a first class seat at ATA. But, we will put our paying customers in first and then fill coach up with non-rev's and jumpseaters. If there are more jumpseaters left, we will put them in the F/A jumpseats.

Too bad Delta won't reciprocate on that one.

Much rather get to where I'm going than wait at Hartsfield-Jackson Rainbow Unity International JetPlex overnight so I can get "the next available" first class seat.

Noam

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Now the PILOTS want to eliminate non-rev travel (bit by bit). It seems some of the LCC pilots on this thread have such disdain for legacy carrier pilots that they are willing to give away more benefits inorder to spite the rest of the industry.

I've lost most hope for this industry, but it will be amusing to see how some of these guys and gals get to work (if they commute on their own carrier). We shall see how much more revenue this produces........it also shows what ATA thinks of their employees.....not socialy adjusted to sit next to a passenger who is sitting in first.

I guess I don't really care what kind of perks ATA or any other LCC has.......it's just that it's getting real hard to hold on to what we (major's) have as a direct result of what some pilots and managements are doing.

Sad industry, when pilots are as big a drag on this profession as some managments.

NYR

You are full of BS. And that's the first time I've said that on this board.

Delta and UAL are FAMOUS...yes FAMOUS...for only taking one or two jumpseaters. And I've heard bad things about jumpseating on AA. In fact, Delta hasn't had the privelege very long. ATA, JetBlue, and SWA take as many as they can hold.

Disdain for legacy guys, no way. I wanted to be a Delta pilot for a long time. Now that I'm ready to apply, the timing is poor. Should I go work at Home Depot?

I was joking, a little, about the social thing. But there are snooty business types who dislike their fellow human beings. A lot like some pilots I know or read about on flightinfo.com

I'm sorry that legacies are in the cr@pp#r right now. But with your cost structure (and executive compensation packages) you will have to earn less than ATA, Southwest, and Jetblue just to fight the LCCs. ATA makes more than AA on similar equipment now and they still aren't pulling down a profit. And don't give me this "you are losing too, why don't your raise fares" stuff. I wish we could, I don't want to go to Chapter 11 either.

Obviously you do care about our perks, oh wait, but only when it affects you...I got it. It's all about ME, right? I am truly sorry you have DISDAIN for us, we don't have disdain for you. I wish I had a legacy job AND didn't fear for my job or standard of living. We are all in this together, IMHO.

Yes it is a SAD industry, but Americans are doing it all over. Watch Lou Dobbs on CNN.

I do what I can.

Best Wishes,

FBJ

 

[General Lee]

Noam,

We are lucky to have any jumpseat--we bargained and finally won one (or more depending on the type of aircraft used--soem have two jumpseats)---and that was a win for you and me. Right now our management wants us to take huge pay cuts---and I bet if we said "Sure, we'll take your huge cuts---but Noam from ATA wants us to have more jumpseats, how about we trade 30% pay for them?" They would do it! Noam wants us to lower the bar so he can make sure he gets the jumpseat!

At least we can pretty much guarantee that at least one guy can get the jumpseat---and if it is you NOAM---there is a good chance you can ask the stew for a FIRST CLASS SEAT if there is one available......By the way--if you were left behind from a DL flight 20% full--then the other jumpseater beat you to the counter, because if it were one of our guys he/she would have taken a seat in the back. (no one sits in the jumpseat with open seats in the back) Please show up to the gate a little earlier.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Pilotbob3]

The problem with pilots at LCC's and regionals is that they are begining to believe that it is "normal" to be lucky to make $ 100/hour as a captain....have no benefits and now....should not sit in first class!!! unbelievable!!! the race to the bottom continues. Wal-Mart is a very profitable company where no one makes any real money but has a job.....this is what these guys think is great!

idiots

 

[IB6 UB9]

Let me get this straight General...DAL would trade 30% pay cuts in exchange for eliminating OL jumpseats? Maybe I read your post wrong.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

The problem with pilots at LCC's and regionals is that they are begining to believe that it is "normal" to be lucky to make $ 100/hour as a captain....have no benefits and now....should not sit in first class!!! unbelievable!!! the race to the bottom continues. Wal-Mart is a very profitable company where no one makes any real money but has a job.....this is what these guys think is great!

idiots

Oh Yeah! Well you're a dork. Double Triple stamp!

 

[Noam]

I don't think ATA pilots have "lowered the bar". We have a near industry leading contract and from what I've understood, ATA pilots are doing much better now than they were with the Teamsters.

We at ATA also know how important it is that Delta keep's the bar "high". They are one of the only pilot groups that are getting paid a decent wage, and it is CRUCIAL for the ENTIRE INDUSTRY that they don't bend over like AAL, UAL, etc.

Godspeed Delta.

Noam

 

[azdriver]

I'm not trying to flaim bait the threat but I would like to give you some info from over the pond. Here at Alitalia pilots and FA can travel wherever they want FOR FREE as long there is a seat in the plane (does not matter if jumpseat or cabin seat). We have agreement with other national airlines to reciprocate this privilege. Furthermore company pilots must be checked in businness/first if there are seats open in that class for international flights only. For the others once the doors are closed we try to accomodate our fellows flight/ground crews of others airlines if they introduce themself as we would lke to be in their planes. My experience with Delta is a proof of that, once I get a seat from the gate agent (I fly non rev obvsly) I jump on the plane and once I cheers the ALL crew always got seated in Businness Elite, wich I'm very very thankful about since I commute quite often from Italy to LAX. Same kind of welcome happen with AA.

For that reason I always try to be as nice as all the crew that welcome me on board their planes just because I'm a collegue, not matters what airlines they come from.

So a HUGE THANKS to DL and AA crews and everyone else because I apprct your hospitality and I hope you will enjoy ours.

From Italy

Ciao ciao


did not spell check so pls be forgiving

 

[General Lee]

First of all I never stated that Delta pilots would "give up jumpseats" for reducing the amount of pay cut. We will never get rid of the jumpseat, and we hope to someday have more than one available (besides on aircraft with more than one in the cockpit--764, 777, 767ER). What I was trying to say was that we will not give up all of our pay (or 30% cuts) to GET MORE THAN one... We would never give up the ones we have now. We just won't pay extra for additional ones.....

I also never said ATA was lowering the bar on pay----from what I know your pay rates are better than AA's in some cases---and that is GOOD.

My whole point here is that I think it is lame that ATA is not allowing their employees a chance at a first class seat if one is available. Yes, I think that is nifty that they may offer the seats to unsuspecting coach passengers---and they might really appreciate that. Why don't we do that at Delta? Well, we have something like 35,000,000 (million) SkyMiles members--and a lot of them get upgrades when there are open seats that were not purchased in First Class. Even though they get an upgrade--we value their patronage too--and they obviously are good customers--even if they buy primarily coach seats.


So, to sum this up hopefully for the last time:


1. I just wanted ATA employees to have the chance to sit up front if there is an open seat for some reason, and I think it was kind of a slap in the face---IMO.

2. ATA pay is great.

3. We will still have a jumpseat at DL---hopefully more eventually.

4. TRIMIX loves Southwest, and that is awesome.

5. Noam--sorry we left you at the gate--I hope it wasn't a DL pilot
in the jump--or he would get talked to.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

AZdriver,

How often do you commute from LAX to ITALY? Where are you based? And, what type of trips do you fly and where to? Sounds interesting.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[azdriver]

Hey General,

I commute once a month, you know my girl is from Cali sooo..... I'm based in FCO/MXP but I live in Venice (downtown! with the canals, the gondolas and no cars.) Usually when I'm done with work the easier way to get over there is Alitalia out of Mxp or Rome to JFK and then Delta. And my friend you can't even Imagine how important is your warmly welcome on the 5.30 hrs to Lax.
Cheers

 

[saabcaptain]

I don't get what the problem is here... if they would let the aircraft leave with empty seats I could understand everyone's complaining... but they are just saying if they have empty first class seats they will fill them with coach class passengers and then give the non-revs the coach seats. I think that is a good idea, after all a paying coach passenger upgraded to first class may very well make a decision to fly ATA again because they went above and beyond.

As long as you aren't left behind when the plane has open seats why should I expect to occupy first class when doing so prevents paying customers from enjoying that perk?

What am I missing here?

 

[atafan]

saabcaptain, you are correct! The problem is ATA's CEO did a horrible job stating exactly what you just said.

And to Pilotbob3 , you are quite uneducated to the state of our industry. I have no problem with DAL or some other legacy airline leading the industry with pay. You make a blanket statement that all LCCs are just happy to make $100K per year, I bet I made more cash last year than you did last year sport.

Our entire economy, especially our industry is changing - accept change or not, but please don't blame other pilots for your own problems.

 

[Pilotbob3]

And to Pilotbob3 , you are quite uneducated to the state of our industry. I have no problem with DAL or some other legacy airline leading the industry with pay. You make a blanket statement that all LCCs are just happy to make $100K per year, I bet I made more cash last year than you did last year sport.

Our entire economy, especially our industry is changing - accept change or not, but please don't blame other pilots for your own problems.

sorry atafan...i am quite educated as to the state of our industry...been in it for over 10 years on the airline side. reread my post again..there was no blanket statement that ALL are just happy...i said that pilots at LCC's and regionals are BEGINING to BELIEVE that making 100$ an hour is NORMAL and good. i am aware what the ata contract pay rates are, and they are better than the average these days. im sure you made more cash than me "sport" at an airline. ...since i was furloughed and looking for a job. but don't worry im sure my portfolio runs circles around yours.

our economy is changing for the better right now and managements are hurrying to get all the cuts they can before its too late. sorry i am not a lemming, i dont' have to accept change, especially when it is going in the wrong direction. i WILL blame other pilots for the current problems in our industry. the leaders of the APA are pilots that gave away the farm, im sure there is some kind of palm greasing going on behind the scenes. the Delta MEC and NWA MEC are the only players left with balls to stand up to management who doesn't always quite tell the truth...or "forgets" to inform with certain details. God Bless 'em!!!

 

[acbarney]

Noam,

if it were one of our guys he/she would have taken a seat in the back. (no one sits in the jumpseat with open seats in the back) Please show up to the gate a little earlier.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Several years ago I was commuting to FL through ATL, just after DL got the jumpseat. There was a DAL pilot already checked in for the jumpseat, traveling on vacation with his family, wife, kids, etc. I asked the gate agent if the flight was open, and she said there were about 20 seats available. I approached the DAL pilot and asked him if he could take a seat in back with his family and I would pay his nonrev fee. NO was the answer and the flight departed with him and his family sitting in the back with 20 other open seats, and me (a lowly US Air express/Liberty Express/Mesa pilot) standing at the gate.

Granted this was a one time occurrence and all of my other jumpseat trips on DAL have been great, including first/business class when available. But that one experience soured me on Delta for a long time, just like one bad experience sours a paying customer for a long time.

I think ATA's policy of putting paying customers in First Class is a great idea. It will impress many customers who aren't used to first class and will keep them coming back to us over SWA and JBLU. As long as no one, including 15 jumpseaters, is left behind.

 

[Pickle]

WARNING!! RANT AHEAD!!!!!!

This is just an example of General Lee having NO idea what he is talking about, spouting off about it, then trying to look like a nice guy later on.

To all the non-ATA employees on here who DON'T know what they are talking about, no ATA plane will leave the gate with an empty business class seat. Seats will be filled first by people who buy them ahead of time, then by people who choose to purchase an upgade at the gate, then in order of who has the most points in the ATA frequent flier program.

Up to now, when ATA had only one class of seating, nobody had any problem about having to sit in "coach". Now that there will be business class seats, all employees have to get into them? How do you figure that?? Just because that is how it was always done by DAL, UAL, etc., etc. does not mean that that is how WE have to do it. The paradigm has shifted. At TWA whenever someone asked why a procedure was done a certain way, the answer was "Because that is how we did it on the Connie". Times change, we all must change with them. What difference does it make to General Lee or NYRANGERS if ATA employees don't have a shot at business class. You worry about your airline, we will worry about ours.

And while we are at it, wuit making a point of telling everyone how much money you make and how it is more than the next guy. Hey General, isn't NYRANGERS still on furlough? If so, I am sure he really wants to hear you telling someone that even after your (proposed) 30% pay-cut you will still be making more than TriMixDeepDiver. While we are at it, that goes for atafan too. Just leave your paychecks out of it. One thing that General Lee had right is that he likes his job and life and wife. Isn't that what is important?

Yes, the company didn't do a good job with the initial press release about this. But they have since explained what they were trying to say. Again, just worry about your own business and leave us to ours. General Lee, we don't need you taking up some cuase for us. Very typical attitude from a "MAJOR AIRLINE PILOT". You want everyone to be JUST LIKE YOU.

By the way, I once got bumped off a Delta jumpseat (pre 9-11) 5 minutes AFTER SCHEDULED DEPARTURE TIME. I am sure someone can beat that, though.

END OF RANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BTDII]

I'm not getting into this pi$$ing match, just wanted to raise a few questions.

By doing this, "free upgrade", won't ATA start to lose some First Class fares that they otherwise could have had? Once the customers figure out that theres a good chance of getting uprgraded based on how good of a customer you are, those good customers that used to buy First Class will now just buy coach and wait for the free upgrade.

On top of that, there goes the revenue from gate purchased uprgrades as well. Why buy it at the gate if theres a good chance you'll get it for free.

Another question is how will this affect your on-time departures? Before you can upgrade anyone you'll have to have everyone on the plane already right? Then you have to have the gate agent go and find the 1 or 10 customers to upgrade, grab their belongings, move to their new seats, put their stuff away, and get comfortable all over again. Meanwhile there'll be 10 other customers bitching to the gate agent about how high up the "good customer pole" they are and why did'nt they get the first class seat. At this point, I'd see customer relations getting a little hairy. Anytime time a company gives something for free, you will always have someone screaming why did'nt they get thier free thing too. In my opinion, a program like this opens up too many other possibilities for things to go wrong.

Now for those of you who say that this move will keep customers coming back. I say "yes" and "no". Yes it's a good feeling as a customer to know you have a chance at a free upgrade, but in the end the overall ticket price and convienance for the passenger will win.

I'll give an example, my stepfather travels weekly for business. His favorite airline is Delta (I know, can you belive it?, My own relative) But he does'nt get to use them, because his company won't pay the high fares anymore (cheap ba$tards). So he has to go out of his way most times and drive to where SW is to take them.

Now no offense to the SWA'ers, but he can't stand that level of service, (he says the jokes are getting old an annoying, and most days he just wants a nice quiet greeting and shut the F up, thats just him though, hes getting old and annoying too) but because he's not paying for it and his company is, the overall ticket price is the winner and not the convienance or comfort.

Thoughts?

 

[General Lee]

Pickle,

I don't know what I am talking about? And you do? The policy stinks---so what if they give the first class seats to coach passengers? They couldn't afford it anyway--and likely will not purchase a first class seat again. Most of your MDW passengers are looking at the price difference between you and Southwest at MDW. They don't care!!

As far as NYRangers being on furlough, yes, unfortunately he is. But I think it is great---and I bet he does too, that even after a proposed 30% pay cut--he will come back to a high paying job--something you obviously are against? What? Don't you want us to hold up the bar for you? You don't?

Do you want us to lower our pay scale lower than yours? You do? Your argument doesn't make sense. We have fought for our furloughs, and they will come back eventually---and we will also give to our company with pay cuts, but won't be the only ones---everyone will give something. You obviously fall for management's line every time....

So, you also don't want me to take up a cause for you guys? What? I thought bringing that policy up would make you and everyone else see that you guys are missing a great perk, and you would possibly question it. The policy stinks Pickle, it does-----and you know it. And please get over your "legacy carrier vs us" issues---you really need to get over it.

As far as getting bumped off a jumpseat at the last minute---I have had that happen to me twice at United, but you don't see me crying over spilled milk. Sometimes it happens---but most of the time it does NOT. Some guys are jerks--that is a fact.

Bye Bye--General Lee