ATA employees not allowed in 1st class?

[General Lee]

First of all I never stated that Delta pilots would "give up jumpseats" for reducing the amount of pay cut. We will never get rid of the jumpseat, and we hope to someday have more than one available (besides on aircraft with more than one in the cockpit--764, 777, 767ER). What I was trying to say was that we will not give up all of our pay (or 30% cuts) to GET MORE THAN one... We would never give up the ones we have now. We just won't pay extra for additional ones.....

I also never said ATA was lowering the bar on pay----from what I know your pay rates are better than AA's in some cases---and that is GOOD.

My whole point here is that I think it is lame that ATA is not allowing their employees a chance at a first class seat if one is available. Yes, I think that is nifty that they may offer the seats to unsuspecting coach passengers---and they might really appreciate that. Why don't we do that at Delta? Well, we have something like 35,000,000 (million) SkyMiles members--and a lot of them get upgrades when there are open seats that were not purchased in First Class. Even though they get an upgrade--we value their patronage too--and they obviously are good customers--even if they buy primarily coach seats.


So, to sum this up hopefully for the last time:


1. I just wanted ATA employees to have the chance to sit up front if there is an open seat for some reason, and I think it was kind of a slap in the face---IMO.

2. ATA pay is great.

3. We will still have a jumpseat at DL---hopefully more eventually.

4. TRIMIX loves Southwest, and that is awesome.

5. Noam--sorry we left you at the gate--I hope it wasn't a DL pilot
in the jump--or he would get talked to.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

AZdriver,

How often do you commute from LAX to ITALY? Where are you based? And, what type of trips do you fly and where to? Sounds interesting.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[azdriver]

Hey General,

I commute once a month, you know my girl is from Cali sooo..... I'm based in FCO/MXP but I live in Venice (downtown! with the canals, the gondolas and no cars.) Usually when I'm done with work the easier way to get over there is Alitalia out of Mxp or Rome to JFK and then Delta. And my friend you can't even Imagine how important is your warmly welcome on the 5.30 hrs to Lax.
Cheers

 

[saabcaptain]

I don't get what the problem is here... if they would let the aircraft leave with empty seats I could understand everyone's complaining... but they are just saying if they have empty first class seats they will fill them with coach class passengers and then give the non-revs the coach seats. I think that is a good idea, after all a paying coach passenger upgraded to first class may very well make a decision to fly ATA again because they went above and beyond.

As long as you aren't left behind when the plane has open seats why should I expect to occupy first class when doing so prevents paying customers from enjoying that perk?

What am I missing here?

 

[atafan]

saabcaptain, you are correct! The problem is ATA's CEO did a horrible job stating exactly what you just said.

And to Pilotbob3 , you are quite uneducated to the state of our industry. I have no problem with DAL or some other legacy airline leading the industry with pay. You make a blanket statement that all LCCs are just happy to make $100K per year, I bet I made more cash last year than you did last year sport.

Our entire economy, especially our industry is changing - accept change or not, but please don't blame other pilots for your own problems.

 

[Pilotbob3]

And to Pilotbob3 , you are quite uneducated to the state of our industry. I have no problem with DAL or some other legacy airline leading the industry with pay. You make a blanket statement that all LCCs are just happy to make $100K per year, I bet I made more cash last year than you did last year sport.

Our entire economy, especially our industry is changing - accept change or not, but please don't blame other pilots for your own problems.

sorry atafan...i am quite educated as to the state of our industry...been in it for over 10 years on the airline side. reread my post again..there was no blanket statement that ALL are just happy...i said that pilots at LCC's and regionals are BEGINING to BELIEVE that making 100$ an hour is NORMAL and good. i am aware what the ata contract pay rates are, and they are better than the average these days. im sure you made more cash than me "sport" at an airline. ...since i was furloughed and looking for a job. but don't worry im sure my portfolio runs circles around yours.

our economy is changing for the better right now and managements are hurrying to get all the cuts they can before its too late. sorry i am not a lemming, i dont' have to accept change, especially when it is going in the wrong direction. i WILL blame other pilots for the current problems in our industry. the leaders of the APA are pilots that gave away the farm, im sure there is some kind of palm greasing going on behind the scenes. the Delta MEC and NWA MEC are the only players left with balls to stand up to management who doesn't always quite tell the truth...or "forgets" to inform with certain details. God Bless 'em!!!

 

[acbarney]

Noam,

if it were one of our guys he/she would have taken a seat in the back. (no one sits in the jumpseat with open seats in the back) Please show up to the gate a little earlier.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Several years ago I was commuting to FL through ATL, just after DL got the jumpseat. There was a DAL pilot already checked in for the jumpseat, traveling on vacation with his family, wife, kids, etc. I asked the gate agent if the flight was open, and she said there were about 20 seats available. I approached the DAL pilot and asked him if he could take a seat in back with his family and I would pay his nonrev fee. NO was the answer and the flight departed with him and his family sitting in the back with 20 other open seats, and me (a lowly US Air express/Liberty Express/Mesa pilot) standing at the gate.

Granted this was a one time occurrence and all of my other jumpseat trips on DAL have been great, including first/business class when available. But that one experience soured me on Delta for a long time, just like one bad experience sours a paying customer for a long time.

I think ATA's policy of putting paying customers in First Class is a great idea. It will impress many customers who aren't used to first class and will keep them coming back to us over SWA and JBLU. As long as no one, including 15 jumpseaters, is left behind.

 

[Pickle]

WARNING!! RANT AHEAD!!!!!!

This is just an example of General Lee having NO idea what he is talking about, spouting off about it, then trying to look like a nice guy later on.

To all the non-ATA employees on here who DON'T know what they are talking about, no ATA plane will leave the gate with an empty business class seat. Seats will be filled first by people who buy them ahead of time, then by people who choose to purchase an upgade at the gate, then in order of who has the most points in the ATA frequent flier program.

Up to now, when ATA had only one class of seating, nobody had any problem about having to sit in "coach". Now that there will be business class seats, all employees have to get into them? How do you figure that?? Just because that is how it was always done by DAL, UAL, etc., etc. does not mean that that is how WE have to do it. The paradigm has shifted. At TWA whenever someone asked why a procedure was done a certain way, the answer was "Because that is how we did it on the Connie". Times change, we all must change with them. What difference does it make to General Lee or NYRANGERS if ATA employees don't have a shot at business class. You worry about your airline, we will worry about ours.

And while we are at it, wuit making a point of telling everyone how much money you make and how it is more than the next guy. Hey General, isn't NYRANGERS still on furlough? If so, I am sure he really wants to hear you telling someone that even after your (proposed) 30% pay-cut you will still be making more than TriMixDeepDiver. While we are at it, that goes for atafan too. Just leave your paychecks out of it. One thing that General Lee had right is that he likes his job and life and wife. Isn't that what is important?

Yes, the company didn't do a good job with the initial press release about this. But they have since explained what they were trying to say. Again, just worry about your own business and leave us to ours. General Lee, we don't need you taking up some cuase for us. Very typical attitude from a "MAJOR AIRLINE PILOT". You want everyone to be JUST LIKE YOU.

By the way, I once got bumped off a Delta jumpseat (pre 9-11) 5 minutes AFTER SCHEDULED DEPARTURE TIME. I am sure someone can beat that, though.

END OF RANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BTDII]

I'm not getting into this pi$$ing match, just wanted to raise a few questions.

By doing this, "free upgrade", won't ATA start to lose some First Class fares that they otherwise could have had? Once the customers figure out that theres a good chance of getting uprgraded based on how good of a customer you are, those good customers that used to buy First Class will now just buy coach and wait for the free upgrade.

On top of that, there goes the revenue from gate purchased uprgrades as well. Why buy it at the gate if theres a good chance you'll get it for free.

Another question is how will this affect your on-time departures? Before you can upgrade anyone you'll have to have everyone on the plane already right? Then you have to have the gate agent go and find the 1 or 10 customers to upgrade, grab their belongings, move to their new seats, put their stuff away, and get comfortable all over again. Meanwhile there'll be 10 other customers bitching to the gate agent about how high up the "good customer pole" they are and why did'nt they get the first class seat. At this point, I'd see customer relations getting a little hairy. Anytime time a company gives something for free, you will always have someone screaming why did'nt they get thier free thing too. In my opinion, a program like this opens up too many other possibilities for things to go wrong.

Now for those of you who say that this move will keep customers coming back. I say "yes" and "no". Yes it's a good feeling as a customer to know you have a chance at a free upgrade, but in the end the overall ticket price and convienance for the passenger will win.

I'll give an example, my stepfather travels weekly for business. His favorite airline is Delta (I know, can you belive it?, My own relative) But he does'nt get to use them, because his company won't pay the high fares anymore (cheap ba$tards). So he has to go out of his way most times and drive to where SW is to take them.

Now no offense to the SWA'ers, but he can't stand that level of service, (he says the jokes are getting old an annoying, and most days he just wants a nice quiet greeting and shut the F up, thats just him though, hes getting old and annoying too) but because he's not paying for it and his company is, the overall ticket price is the winner and not the convienance or comfort.

Thoughts?

 

[General Lee]

Pickle,

I don't know what I am talking about? And you do? The policy stinks---so what if they give the first class seats to coach passengers? They couldn't afford it anyway--and likely will not purchase a first class seat again. Most of your MDW passengers are looking at the price difference between you and Southwest at MDW. They don't care!!

As far as NYRangers being on furlough, yes, unfortunately he is. But I think it is great---and I bet he does too, that even after a proposed 30% pay cut--he will come back to a high paying job--something you obviously are against? What? Don't you want us to hold up the bar for you? You don't?

Do you want us to lower our pay scale lower than yours? You do? Your argument doesn't make sense. We have fought for our furloughs, and they will come back eventually---and we will also give to our company with pay cuts, but won't be the only ones---everyone will give something. You obviously fall for management's line every time....

So, you also don't want me to take up a cause for you guys? What? I thought bringing that policy up would make you and everyone else see that you guys are missing a great perk, and you would possibly question it. The policy stinks Pickle, it does-----and you know it. And please get over your "legacy carrier vs us" issues---you really need to get over it.

As far as getting bumped off a jumpseat at the last minute---I have had that happen to me twice at United, but you don't see me crying over spilled milk. Sometimes it happens---but most of the time it does NOT. Some guys are jerks--that is a fact.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Pickle]

General Lee, this is your M.O., we all know it. Pot-stirring is something you do very well. You either didn't know the whole story or you did and chose to not adress it - as was evidenced by your remark of "ATA will not allow their employees to occupy 1st class when it arrives later this year. (except management I bet)" and "So, if there are no seats available in coach, and the jumpseat is taken, can an ATA employee take a seat in first?? I guess not....?".


General Lee said: "I don't know what I am talking about? And you do? The policy stinks---so what if they give the first class seats to coach passengers? They couldn't afford it anyway--and likely will not purchase a first class seat again. Most of your MDW passengers are looking at the price difference between you and Southwest at MDW. They don't care!!"

The marketing people here have decided that there is a market for business class seats on us. It is something that will set us apart from SWA. They seem to think that most of the seats will be sold ahead of time, and what is left will be upgraded at the gate. Why don't you let our marketing people determine what is best for our airline, just like I am sure you let your marketing dept do their job. You do, don't you?


General Lee said: "he will come back to a high paying job--something you obviously are against? "

No, I don't care what you get paid, why do you care what I get paid, why do you care that I DON'T care what you get paid. You do care, don't you?

General Lee said:" thought bringing that policy up would make you and everyone else see that you guys are missing a great perk, and you would possibly question it"

Again General Lee, stay out of our business?? DO YOU ACTUALLY THINK THAT BEFORE YOU DEIGNED TO BESTOW YOUR OH SO GREAT WISDOM UPON US THAT WE DID NOT KNOW WE WERE NOT GETTING ACCESS TO THE BUSINESS CLASS SEATS????????????? Get real General Lee, you are not some high and mighty superman who needs to tell the rest of us what we are missing and what we need to do to fix it, and by fix it I am sure you mean "make it just like Delta". You do mean that, don't you?

You don't want anyone to be paid LESS than you because then you have to justify your higher payscales.


General Lee said: "And please get over your "legacy carrier vs us" issues---you really need to get over it."

Holy cow, you have to be kidding, right?? Anytime ATA, jetBlue, AirTran, or any othe LCC does anything you take it as a direct affront to you personally and go on about how much more $$ you make and that you know better than we etc etc etc. I do not have a LCC vs. Legacy complex, you, however, do. You do, don't you??


General Lee said: "Some guys are jerks--that is a fact."

Boy, you got that right. I am typing to one right now.

 

[General Lee]

Pickle,

You really don't get me, do you? You obviously haven't read most of my posts? (How could you not--I have over 2000 of them....)

This board has a couple different uses---mainly to help people decide where they may want to work. This also is an opinion board, and anyone can give their opinion. (And, I even contributed money---so I have EVERY right to)

As far as "stirring the pot"---I have opinions, and my opinion may not "jive" with yours. Too bad. If you do not like it---leave or write a response--but give facts to back yourself up if you want to be taken seriously. I always do, and I can say that your policy stinks--and I give my reasons. I don't have to "stay out of your company's business"----what are you? A Nazis? That is stupid. If you don't like it---then log off. You brought up that you didn't like Delta's single jumpseat policy. I came up with reason why we have a jumpseat policy at all---and I even stated that you--as an ATA pilot--can use it and even sit in First Class if there is room. We even have two jumpseats available on certain planes---777s, 764's, and 767-ERs--all available to you. After reading this type of info that actually makes sense--you get angry and start to spout off---"Leave us ALONE!!" "Take A pay cut for your Furloughs"--all this other crap. You never got to the meat of my opinion----why this policy stinks for your employees who work hard and may want a seat up front to relax. I can understand the reason---to allow people in coach to upgrade and have a "great" experience. That may or may not work--but it will fill up your First Class no doubt. You then say "We aren't legacy carriers----leave us alone!!! We don't have to do it like you! You can't mold us into you!!" Give me a break---you are losing it.... "Make it like Delta"---that is stupid.

Overall, I am allowed to have an opinion---and I think YOUR policy stinks. You can say whatever you want---and you can even think I am a jerk. That is interesting--I started this thread trying not to be a jerk---just trying to announce something that I thought was wrong--something against the employees. I don't have anything against the LCCs--I think they have good business plans and I have never told anyone not to go to one of them. I also do not flaunt my $$$$ salary---I have only stated that I hope we can hold the bar up as much as possible. Do you have a problem with that? Most people do not. You do for some reason....I am against the proliferation of RJs--especially when businessmen don't seem to like them on longer flights. But, I am not against LCCs---I see them as a part of reality in this business. I am also "for" employees--including the ones on furlough. You are the one really looking like a jerk here---not me.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[crashpad]

General Lee, this is your M.O., we all know it. Pot-stirring is something you do very well.

... stirring the pot gives this board the flavor it needs once in awhile.

 

[General Lee]

Some guys want "just the facts, mam." Boring! (and, I am not a "mam.")

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I'll give an example, my stepfather travels weekly for business. His favorite airline is Delta (I know, can you belive it?, My own relative) But he does'nt get to use them, because his company won't pay the high fares anymore (cheap ba$tards). So he has to go out of his way most times and drive to where SW is to take them.

Now no offense to the SWA'ers, but he can't stand that level of service, (he says the jokes are getting old an annoying, and most days he just wants a nice quiet greeting and shut the F up, thats just him though, hes getting old and annoying too) but because he's not paying for it and his company is, the overall ticket price is the winner and not the convienance or comfort.

Thoughts?

My opinion is "The Customer is Always Right". In this case your stepfather is not the customer, his company is.

That may change if your stepfather and other employees threaten to change jobs for better "perks" like more suitable travel arrangements. Then the company and traveler would both be "customers".

Since customer preferences change over time its a hard to get a good fix on what will attract the target customer. Airline execs will earn their pay the next few years if they can get the right customers to pick them.

Of course pilots will use hindsight to severely critique their decisions. Any airline on autopilot now will deserve that criticism.

 

[Pickle]

General Lee:

First of all, no I don't get you.

You stated your opinion, and I told you some reasons why that opinion was an uninformed one. I tried to give you all the facts, yet you still may not get them. You do realize that no ATA flight will go out with an empty business class seat, right? They will be sold or used as a reward to good customers. At no time will any employees, ANY, not pilots, FAs, rampers, executives, secretaries, whatever be able to non-rev in business class. Unless they buy a ticket there that is. That is how it is done here, we don't have a problem with it.

My not being able to sit in ATA business class does not mean I am a second class citizen, because up to right before the announcement was made, we didn't even have a business class and I wasn't a second class citizen then. Nothing has changed for us. On DAL, AA, UAL, whoever, business/first class seats sometimes go out empty. That means that jumpseaters/non-revvers can get to those seats. Great, good for you. It just won't be the policy here. ATA has decided that they want to use those empty seats as a little treat to a few loyal customers. Sounds good to me. It is nice to have something to set us apart from SWA.

General Lee said: "You brought up that you didn't like Delta's single jumpseat policy"

No, I didn't bring it up. Others told of their luck/bad luck with DAL jumpseats. I simply added my story. It wasn't "brought up" by me. As I recall you added a little something about being bumped off UAL jumpseats and spilled milk.

Speaking of jumpseats, you like to bring up how DALPA fought very hard to get any amount of jumpseats back. Yes, that is true, and DAL getting the jumpseat back helped me and many, many others. Other airlines (ATA, jetBlue, SWA, several others) allow unlimited jumpseats. Also, we (ATA anyway, I won't speak for SWA, jetBlue, et. al.) never had to fight for these, it has always been company policy. Following this to it's (il-) logical conclusion, how would you feel if these "unlimited jumpseat" airlines decided to follow DAL's lead and only allow as many as there are actual seats? Hey, if we should follow your lead on first/business class seating, maybe we should follow suit on everything else.

General Lee said: "As far as 'stirring the pot'---I have opinions, and my opinion may not 'jive' with yours. Too bad. If you do not like it---leave or write a response--but give facts to back yourself up if you want to be taken seriously"

I DID include facts. I told you what the company policy will be. Your original post on this thread made it clear that you were either not fully aware of the policy, or you knew it and just wanted to be an instigator. In fact, General Lee, this VERY SUBJECT was discussed around three weeks ago: thread ID, I thnk I did this right anyway..... Perhaps you missed it, I did notice that not one of your 2155 posts were on that thread.

General Lee said: "I can say that your policy stinks--and I give my reasons."

It seems to me that the only reasons you give are that it is not like Delta's policy. General Lee, ATA's decision to not put company (and non-company) non-revvers in business class doesn't really affect you at all. Because today if you were to jumpseat on an ATA flight, we don't have business class yet, so you wouldn't be able to sit there. General Lee, you proved My point when you said "the point is that your employees deserve a break if the seat is empty". "IF THE SEAT IS EMPTY." These seats will not be empty.

General Lee said: "You are the one really looking like a jerk here---not me."

You are the one with the snide little comments, including, but in no way limited to: "Enjoy Islip.", "By the way--that Airline show is great--I bet you are proud.", "But we all know your planes are always full----just like the EWR to SFO flights (ooops---cnxed March 15th)", "Enjoy Kuwait", "You fly for a MAJOR LCC?---Ummm ok", "I am sooo glad that you work constantly", "Enjoy Yonkers"

Those are just the comments off of THIS thread!

So, to sum up. Our business class seats will not be available to company non-revvers. That is because no ATA plane will leave the gate without either a paying customer or an upgraded loyal customer in one of those seats. Also due to this, no offline jumpseaters will have access to the business class seats. But it is in no way different to the policy we have now, since as of yet there are no business class seats in the planes. If you can't get in it now, and you can't get in it later, what has changed?

 

[FlyChicaga]

Not so long ago, we took a maintenance delay in IND, and decided while waiting for contract MX to fix the problem, we'd grab some food. A deadheading ATA F/A came with us to chat with our F/A while we ate. She mentioned a story where her and 4 or 5 other F/As were asked to work a MDW-SEA flight, when they all were supposed to be deadheading back to IND to go home. It was late, and there were no flights home after the flight they were working. Since they were all off the next day, the company decided to fly them back in the ATA Execujet Learjet from SEA to IND.

This company does go the extra mile for employees. But they also realize that the customer is extremely important. I don't see what is wrong with this... it is in fact a 'service' industry.

 

[-9Capt]

Years ago, AirTran had probably the worst upgrade policy. Capts only, no FO's and no FA's in business class. This was policy only, once on board if a big seat was open, it wasn't for long. I think Joe Leonard changed this policy his first day on the job.

Pickel,
There is something I don't understand, if "no ATA plane will leave the gate with an empty business class seat", as you say, why have a policy that doesn't allow employees in business class? There wont be any seats to be had.

AirTran sells business class upgrades at the gate and offers comp upgrades to corporate A2B customers and Freq Flyers, and there are still the occasional business clas seats to be had.

 

[Pickle]

-9Capt:

When the business class seats were first announced, all that was said was that no ATA non-revvers would be seated there. It was not mentioned in the first announcement that the reason for this was that all seats would be filled with customers. The statement of no non-revvers came out BEFORE the statement that all seats would be given to customers.

I don't know if I am answering your question clearly or not.

 

[Steeler Fan]

Jumpseat???

"Face it, some employees are obnoxious and pax don't like it. The pilots are used to sitting behind a closed door where no one can see them. We develop some poor social habits."

If you are sitting in First/Biz Class OR in Coach, whether it's your own airline or not,

PLEASE Don't act like obnoxious and loud in view or earshot of paying passengers...They did not pay their hard earned $ (or their company's $) to listen to us complain about our work rules...BE PROFESSIONAL...

 

[furloughed dude]

I rarely say this, but I have to agree with the generalissimo. This sounds like a cheesy policy. Says alot about your management....