AT ALPA high road

[Andy]

I think that's how the alpa way works?!?! Does SWAPa not have the same format ? Could your Mec have nixed the agreement before it was sent out to vote as well or does it automatically go to a vote after the negotiating guys have a deal with the company??

I'm furloughed UAL. I can recall at least a couple of items sent to the membership for a vote with the MEC recommending a no vote.
Those were on contract change items that the company offered without any negotiation. They were actually very favorable for the LCO side of the house but UAL pilots being UAL membership (cut your nose off to spite your face) voted them down.

 

[Sacha]

Sacha,

The way I see it is the AT F/Os should have had some better seniority and the the senior SWA F/Os should get any capt seat that their seniority can hold. I think this would have been fair for both sides. Screw all this protecting the capts and base protection crap. If you are at AT and you want more seniority, then you should be willing to walk away from your capt seat if you cant hold it. Also, maybe throw in some upgrades for the SWA guys that come from SWA retirements. Do you think that this is reasonable?

All reasonable considerations that should be put to a vote by your ALL of your pilots as all of us get to vote whether our negotiators like it or not.

But again my question was avoided as why protecting the junior Airtran guys should be considered honorable and respected but if the SWAPA guys do the exact same thing they are vilified. I really feel like I am arguing with Chris Mathews.

 

[maxthrottle]

Am I mistaken or is that not what you're MC negotiated. You negotiate something. Then reject it, and congradulate yourselves. What a dysfunctional group!

 

[SWA/FO]

The FAB7 didn't want to send it to a vote, cus the FAB7 didn't want it to pass.

This is going south in a hurry.

 

[waveflyer]

Sacha - don't you mean bill o reilley?

 

[On Your Six]

So Airtran protects their junior F/O's and it's the "High Road"

SWAPA tries to protect their junior F/O's and they are arrogant, greedy,selfish bast&$@ds!

Are you a reporter for MSNBC?

Sasha Fierce,

The bottom 60% in your bottom 20%. Seriously? You so crazy! That must be part of a skit on Leno, right? I don't think you'll see those numbers in arbitration! Just a guess Mrs. JZ. Godspeed!


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

The FAB7 didn't want to send it to a vote, cus the FAB7 didn't want it to pass.

This is going south in a hurry.

What would you call the 3 arbitrators? Try calling them "Sir."


OYS

 

[SWA/FO]

What would you call the 3 arbitrators? Try calling them "Sir."

What clown? Watch and learn. You don't know **it.

 

[Dan Roman]

So Airtran protects their junior F/O's and it's the "High Road"

SWAPA tries to protect their junior F/O's and they are arrogant, greedy,selfish bast&$@ds!

Are you a reporter for MSNBC?

Well if wanting a balanced list that doesn't throw either group of F O's under the bus is like an MSNBC reporter than I guess they are the fair and balanced one's! I would think an arbitrated list would have the best shot at sharing the pain equally, without a bias towards either side.

 

[Dan Roman]

The fact that you said ALPA and "the high road" in the same sentence made me throw up in my mouth a little. The AAI MEC is worse than ALPA, at that. Zero leadership and 7 reps holding the careers of 1700 hostage. If your pilots wanted that deal, they'd vote for it. If not, they vote it down and that is much better than 7 deciding for 1700 on something so important. Nothing to lose by letting your pilots vote...that is unless you fear they'd vote yes and that is in direct opposition to what you, as a MEC member, wants. Way to represent rookies!

Thank God B6 didn't go down that road. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have better representation, but not ALPA. We need an independent.

Why do you think if the same guys had been in an independent AirTran union they would have come up with any different decision? Only difference with being in ALPA is they have more resources available to them. It's still their decision to make.

 

[On Your Six]

What clown? Watch and learn. You don't know **it.

Watch and learn? ANYTHING will be better than your first offer. You may actually end up in the bottom 600. If so, I'd say that would be a WIN for a certain side. I hope you yourself tell the arbitrators exactly what you told me above in person. Now THAT would be funny. Godspeed!


OYS

 

[waveflyer]

Well if wanting a balanced list that doesn't throw either group of F O's under the bus is like an MSNBC reporter than I guess they are the fair and balanced one's! I would think an arbitrated list would have the best shot at sharing the pain equally, without a bias towards either side.

None of you will answer Sachas question- all junior FOs under SL9 were going to retire far junior than they would have been without AT. Senior FOs would've had delayed upgrades again. It's a demographic problem assuming equality - AT pilots are simply younger. And I don't assume equality when we aren't.
But in capitalism- the purchasing carrier should have the advantage. It ought to be biased towards us, or else you piss on the sacrifice and talent of wvery pilot who did what it took to get the better job. I am a liberal. But i am not a socialist. Your arguments assume this is a merger of equals- it is not. Only a 30% reduction in seniority is very generous.

And then there's smart. As Andy has said- and Tom, GK is miles ahead of all of us, and I have zero problem following his lead.

 

[jonjuan]

None of you will answer Sachas question- all junior FOs under SL9 were going to retire far junior than they would have been without AT. Senior FOs would've had delayed upgrades again. It's a demographic problem assuming equality - AT pilots are simply younger. And I don't assume equality when we aren't.
But in capitalism- the purchasing carrier should have the advantage. It ought to be biased towards us, or else you piss on the sacrifice and talent of wvery pilot who did what it took to get the better job. I am a liberal. But i am not a socialist. Your arguments assume this is a merger of equals- it is not. Only a 30% reduction in seniority is very generous.

And then there's smart. As Andy has said- and Tom, GK is miles ahead of all of us, and I have zero problem following his lead.

Plenty of SWA hired under the age of 32 as there are plenty of AT hired over the age of 37. Besides that, define the difference of retirement position at number 50 versus number 150?

 

[GoodTimes]

JJ,

The difference between retiring at 150 vs. 50 is quantifiable through bidding power, or lack thereof. You can't argue with the math.

A gradual decrease in relative seniority as the years go by is unacceptable to the SWA side.

 

[Fubijaakr]

The MEC appointed a negotiating committee. The negotiating committee agreed to SL9. And then the MEC decided that in spite of the negotiating committee's work, they didn't like the deal.
That's negotiating in bad faith.

Well, you sort of understand the process but draw the complete wrong conclusion.

1. The MEC appoints the NC and gives them the goals for the negotiation.
2. The NC negotiates the best deal they can. The MEC (hopefully!) stays out of the negotiations completely.
3. The NC brings back the results of the negotiation to the MEC.
4. The MEC then decides if the results of the negotiation should be sent to the pilot group for ratification. If they like it, they send it with a positive recommendation. If its OK they send it with a neutral recommendation. If its a POS they don't send it out to the membership.

An MEC should never send something to the rank and file with a negative recommendation. That's passing the buck to the membership instead of doing your job as an MEC.

Obviously, this AIP was POS and they voted it down. That's their job.

How you draw the conclusion that's bad faith bargaining is beyond me, but an understandable leap from someone who has no idea of the inner workings of an MEC.

Your totally right! Both sides should be watching their own backs ! That's why it's gonna go to arbitration !!

Amen. Arbitrators aren't driven by greed and ego.

Am I mistaken or is that not what you're MC negotiated. You negotiate something. Then reject it, and congradulate yourselves. What a dysfunctional group!

Reread the above. MEC and NC are two different groups with two different jobs in any negotiation.