ASTAR'S Race to the Bottom

[aviatrix767]

HA! We all KNOW the answer to the "who" questions. But now, oh great one, tell us the answer of "why"? Especially the "why's" to your first 4 questions. <tick, tock, tick, tock>


Go back to the Yahoo board

I'm still waiting for the answers to your questions.

 

[abxdx]

You will be waiting for a while! He will never answer... And if you keep on him about it, he will tell you, you have an anger management problem, or pepper you with childish insults....

I'm still waiting for the answers to your questions.

 

[rotor&wing]

I'm still waiting for the answers to your questions.

And we're still awaiting your apology for the smear campaign you started.

 

[fob727]

lower levels

And if you keep on him about it, he will tell you, you have an anger management problem, or pepper you with childish insults....

Abxdx...no, I won't. And I won't lower myself to the level of another board ...again.

Aviatrix, if you even are a ABXA pilot, I can't answer that. Ask J.H.

 

[ABXbooger]

All you Asstar keep saying DHL is getting rid of ABX because of what Hete keeps doing. What exactly is this you keep referring to?

 

[EuroWheenie]

ABX

I work for the Global Airside department. Part of what we do is issue the AGOM (Airside Ground Operations Manual), which will shortly change name to G-AGOM (Global AGOM). Every single airline which is either owned by DHL or does the majority of it's flying for DHL, as well as every single wholly-owned ground handling entity, has signed the dotted line saying they'll adhere to the procedures.

The reasoning behind having a single manual for ground ops on a global scale is pretty simple; standardisation. Handling an aeroplane whether you're in Honkers or the Cornfields is pretty much the same. Sure, the G-AGOM will cater for regional variances, but that's mainly aimed at the more dodgy places where we operate, like certain airports in Africa and the Middle East (read Afghanistan and Iraq).

Everyone signed up, with one noteable exception - and I'll leave to your imagination to guess who. Don't be mistaken, this is not a case of us Eurotrashers coming down on the world, teaching them how to suck eggs. All parties have had a say and input into the manual, with one notable exception. We had anticipated having a few issues with the more dodgy areas of the world, but we were utterly surprised when ABX basically told us to get lost, and doing so in a rather arrogant way.

This is but one example of how ABX management refuses to play by the same set of rules as the rest of the global DHL family; there are plenty more to choose from.

You ask why DHL might, and I'd like to emphasise might as there is no evidence to support this, consider dropping ABX. Well, the above illustrates the frustrations we have with ABX MANAGEMENT. I'm fairly certain the vast majority of the ABX worker bees only want to get on with their jobs.

Finally, it's very very sad indeed to witness the animosity evident between ABX and ASTAR crews on this here board. I'd like to belive that you're the vocal minority, and that the majority of you guys have no problems working together. Being at each others throats favours nobody, least of all your combined reputations.

 

[abxdx]

People in big business work alongside people they don't like every day. You know ABX management might have an attitude with DHL, but in the end we have gone along with all of the decisions that DHL has made. We may have not agreed with them but I do not remember any night when we refused to do a reroute or a recovery when DHL asked. The fact that DHL lost 900 million dollars last year and has lost a significant market share since the aquisition has very little to do with ABX Air. When you get right down to it we have had good reliability,mostly on time with the occasional hiccup for snowstorm event. The problems are much deeper than what ABX Air and for that matter what ASTAR does. The problem IMHO has much more to do with the arrogance of DHL than anything else. Eurowheenie I would like to know if it is not to much trouble some of the decisions that ABX mgmt has made that have significantly impacted DHL path to USA dominance...

ABX

I work for the Global Airside department. Part of what we do is issue the AGOM (Airside Ground Operations Manual), which will shortly change name to G-AGOM (Global AGOM). Every single airline which is either owned by DHL or does the majority of it's flying for DHL, as well as every single wholly-owned ground handling entity, has signed the dotted line saying they'll adhere to the procedures.

The reasoning behind having a single manual for ground ops on a global scale is pretty simple; standardisation. Handling an aeroplane whether you're in Honkers or the Cornfields is pretty much the same. Sure, the G-AGOM will cater for regional variances, but that's mainly aimed at the more dodgy places where we operate, like certain airports in Africa and the Middle East (read Afghanistan and Iraq).

Everyone signed up, with one noteable exception - and I'll leave to your imagination to guess who. Don't be mistaken, this is not a case of us Eurotrashers coming down on the world, teaching them how to suck eggs. All parties have had a say and input into the manual, with one notable exception. We had anticipated having a few issues with the more dodgy areas of the world, but we were utterly surprised when ABX basically told us to get lost, and doing so in a rather arrogant way.

This is but one example of how ABX management refuses to play by the same set of rules as the rest of the global DHL family; there are plenty more to choose from.

You ask why DHL might, and I'd like to emphasise might as there is no evidence to support this, consider dropping ABX. Well, the above illustrates the frustrations we have with ABX MANAGEMENT. I'm fairly certain the vast majority of the ABX worker bees only want to get on with their jobs.

Finally, it's very very sad indeed to witness the animosity evident between ABX and ASTAR crews on this here board. I'd like to belive that you're the vocal minority, and that the majority of you guys have no problems working together. Being at each others throats favours nobody, least of all your combined reputations.

 

[abxdx]

It is well documented what the ASTAR folks think the ABX folks have done to get ALL of us into this mess.
My question is what has ASTAR done to make DHL more viable in the US market.

I will start...

ABX a few months ago added two 767 fuel efficient, reliable aircaft to the DHL ACMI agreement(something they did not have to do, we could have got work for those aircraft easily out of MIA or LAX.) We did this even though DHL will not give us a long term contract.

Someone from Astar please respond...

 

[DC8CRIVER]

All you Asstar keep saying DHL is getting rid of ABX because of what Hete keeps doing. What exactly is this you keep referring to?

ABXbooger,

I THINK what is being primarily referred to is Hete's refusal to negotiate with Dasburg about Astar's buyout proposal. Apparently, even your teamster council now thinks that was a bad idea - this observation based on the Teamster 1224 website "ask Joe Hete":

"Why did the management of ABX Air refuse to discuss ASTAR’s expression of interest?
An indication of interest from ASTAR Air Cargo Holdings, LLC, to acquire ABX at $7.75 per share was made on June 26, 2007 – an offer above the trading price at the time. When considering the largest shareholder of ASTAR is an affiliate of DHL, the largest customer of ABX, a merger seemed likely to produce meaningful synergies. The Board of Directors rejected ASTAR’s offer without disclosing to shareholders the opinion of the Company’s financial advisor, thus providing shareholders no basis for the Board’s decision."


ABXDX,

I agree that in big business, people work along side others that they don't care for every day, but this is very different from a personal problem. Hete is making business decisions that go against the desires of their biggest customer. For better or worse, DHL pays ABX's bills for now and Hete won't do their bidding. Yes, DHL's problems may not be due to ABX, but that doesn't mean that Hete can ignore DHL's wishes without repercussions. We can all quickly agree that DHL has made some very bad decisions even if we do not agree on which decisions were the bad ones - the fact remains that DHL has severely damaged the US operation. The question now is; What do they do about it. They are supposed to have "THE Answer" in the upcoming May announcement. What that announcement will be I have no idea. Hell, we may all be on the street after that for all I know, but this may be their last chance to straighten things out over here.


"fob727 wrote: Right, that's it. Extension to ACMI??? Investing in 49% of who??? Backed a buyout of who??? Signed off on a contract of who??? Demanded repayment of $93m from who??? Withheld payment of $8m from who???"

It really does NOT matter WHY DHL has chosen to do these things that they have done. The fact is that they have and there's nothing we can do about it. The bottom line is that Joe Hete has chosen to take a path that has not promoted a positive relationship with DHL and that pisses off the employees of ABX and rightfully so. As an Astar pilot working for a company with a ACMI agreement with DHL, my own position is FAR from certain. Based on my intimate observations of how DHL has operated over the past 13 years, I would be far from surprised if I found myself on the street a year from now.

I'm pretty sure that we ALL got in the wrong line when we ended up under the DHL umbrella.


... and finally


AVIATRIX,

You contribute nothing useful or intelligent to these boards. Your 15 minutes of fame are up.

Either SHUT UP or APOLOGIZE or BOTH.

 

[abxdx]

Give me specifics! What business decisions did Hete make that took DHL down the toilet. Don't tell me that just because they refused to sell out we are not going in the right direction. Remember DHL may be the biggest customer, but it is not the only one.

Did you ever think that maybe if Dasburg would have made an official offer instead of an indication of interest it would have been met with more discussion.

And I am still waiting to hear a specific example of how ASTAR has improved the US operation.


ABXDX,

I agree that in big business, people work along side others that they don't care for every day, but this is very different from a personal problem. Hete is making business decisions that go against the desires of their biggest customer. For better or worse, DHL pays ABX's bills for now and Hete won't do their bidding. Yes, DHL's problems may not be due to ABX, but that doesn't mean that Hete can ignore DHL's wishes without repercussions. We can all quickly agree that DHL has made some very bad decisions even if we do not agree on which decisions were the bad ones - the fact remains that DHL has severely damaged the US operation. The question now is; What do they do about it. They are supposed to have "THE Answer" in the upcoming May announcement. What that announcement will be I have no idea. Hell, we may all be on the street after that for all I know, but this may be their last chance to straighten things out over here.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

It is well documented what the ASTAR folks think the ABX folks have done to get ALL of us into this mess.
My question is what has ASTAR done to make DHL more viable in the US market.

I will start...

ABX a few months ago added two 767 fuel efficient, reliable aircaft to the DHL ACMI agreement(something they did not have to do, we could have got work for those aircraft easily out of MIA or LAX.) We did this even though DHL will not give us a long term contract.

Someone from Astar please respond...

abxdx,

Just to be clear; Neither I, nor do most other Astar pilots think that ABX pilots have done anything to create the DHL USA mess.

Is there animosity around ILN? Yes. We may never see eye to eye in regards to the Scope lawsuits - even now that they have been dropped. We see it our way and you see it yours. Just suffice it to say, if ABX pilots ever have to go to court over a scope dispute, Astar pilots will understand YOUR point of view regardless of the outcries from the pilots of the other airline.

Do we think that Hete has pissed off DHL? Yes. I'm not sure how many ABX pilots agree with Joe Hete these days - it seems to vary from putting sh*t bombs in his mailbox and 1224 publishing AskJoeHete websites all the way to defending him for trying to grow his airline. While I have always and do now admire him for being aggressive toward growth, I'm pretty sure he doesn't ever for one second have the ABX pilots (or any other pilots) best interests in mind when he makes a decision. He, just like our own greedy Dasburg, is out for himself.

So, to answer your question; Astar has done nothing to strengthen DHL in the US - Astar has only been doing DHL's bidding. They say "move to Wilmington" Daz moves us to Wilmington. They say "stall the contract" - Dasburg stalls the contract. They say "finish the contract" - Dasburg finishes the contract. They say "buy 727's off of lease" Daz buys.

Dasburg ain't gonna buy the first airplane without DHL's blessing and a guarantee for block hours. It's that simple. They say jump, Daz says "into what?"

I applaud ABX for any growth. As I said, Hete is aggressive - and that's good for you folks - for now. I truly hope you all can hold onto what you've got. In the grand scheme of things, we pilots are all pawns and all of us are just trying to keep our jobs, our homes, and our families fed.

We're not the enemy. The guys who reap the millions off of our labors are.

 

[abxdx]

Very well said, I have to say I did not expect that kind of reaction to my post, since what we usually get is mudslinging.

As far as the first part of your post. Pilots and management will fight till the end of time..

As for the rest, maybe Hete just thought that it was not in ABX's interest to be a DHL puppet. Maybe DHL needs someone there telling them they are doing it wrong, because let's face it, they are definately not doing it right.

My hope is that even if we have flying reduced in May or a major reorganization, that from that things turn around and start moving in the right direction, and maybe in a few years... Who knows, we could be a major player in the US( when I say we I mean DHL). It is going to get worse before it gets better, but to follow DHL blindly down the path to destruction(which is exactly what Dasburg is doing) is not going to help anything...

abxdx,

Just to be clear; Neither I, nor do most other Astar pilots think that ABX pilots have done anything to create the DHL USA mess.

Is there animosity around ILN? Yes. We may never see eye to eye in regards to the Scope lawsuits - even now that they have been dropped. We see it our way and you see it yours. Just suffice it to say, if ABX pilots ever have to go to court over a scope dispute, Astar pilots will understand YOUR point of view regardless of the outcries from the pilots of the other airline.

Do we think that Hete has pissed off DHL? Yes. I'm not sure how many ABX pilots agree with Joe Hete these days - it seems to vary from putting sh*t bombs in his mailbox and 1224 publishing AskJoeHete websites all the way to defending him for trying to grow his airline. While I have always and do now admire him for being aggressive toward growth, I'm pretty sure he doesn't ever for one second have the ABX pilots (or any other pilots) best interests in mind when he makes a decision. He, just like our own greedy Dasburg, is out for himself.

So, to answer your question; Astar has done nothing to strengthen DHL in the US - Astar has only been doing DHL's bidding. They say "move to Wilmington" Daz moves us to Wilmington. They say "stall the contract" - Dasburg stalls the contract. They say "finish the contract" - Dasburg finishes the contract. They say "buy 727's off of lease" Daz buys.

Dasburg ain't gonna buy the first airplane without DHL's blessing and a guarantee for block hours. It's that simple. They say jump, Daz says "into what?"

I applaud ABX for any growth. As I said, Hete is aggressive - and that's good for you folks - for now. I truly hope you all can hold onto what you've got. In the grand scheme of things, we pilots are all pawns and all of us are just trying to keep our jobs, our homes, and our families fed.

We're not the enemy. The guys who reap the millions off of our labors are.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Give me specifics! What business decisions did Hete make that took DHL down the toilet. Don't tell me that just because they refused to sell out we are not going in the right direction. Remember DHL may be the biggest customer, but it is not the only one.

Did you ever think that maybe if Dasburg would have made an official offer instead of an indication of interest it would have been met with more discussion.

And I am still waiting to hear a specific example of how ASTAR has improved the US operation.

ABXDX,

I agree that in big business, people work along side others that they don't care for every day, but this is very different from a personal problem. Hete is making business decisions that go against the desires of their biggest customer. For better or worse, DHL pays ABX's bills for now and Hete won't do their bidding. Yes, DHL's problems may not be due to ABX, but that doesn't mean that Hete can ignore DHL's wishes without repercussions. We can all quickly agree that DHL has made some very bad decisions even if we do not agree on which decisions were the bad ones - the fact remains that DHL has severely damaged the US operation. The question now is; What do they do about it. They are supposed to have "THE Answer" in the upcoming May announcement. What that announcement will be I have no idea. Hell, we may all be on the street after that for all I know, but this may be their last chance to straighten things out over here.

abxdx,

OK, you changed your post while I was pecking away.

As you see, I said in the above quote that I don't think ABX is the source of DHL's problems anymore than Astar is.

IMHO, DHL's situation is of their own doing.

- One big setback was the failed integration of operations at ILN. It was DHL's ultimate responsibility to get the operation up and running smoothly. They didn't. While it was DHL's responsibility, there was probably someone else to blame. I won't point a finger because I don't know was at fault. All I know is that it wasn't the Astar pilots who screwed up (nor the ABX pilots). Near as I can tell, we all went above and beyond the call of duty trying to get planes up and out in the face of massive delays.

- The entire US air fleet (with the exception of your 767's) is old, unreliable, and inefficient. Again, DHL's responsibility. If they want to give new 777 & 767's to a brand new and totally inexperienced and unproven airline (AeroLogic) it'll be another extremely screwed up feather in their hat. If, on the other hand, they gave you or us or both newer planes, reliability would go up and fuel costs would go down.

- The cargo system incompatibility issue. I won't argue whether A cans or C cans are better. Suffice it to say that had DHL gone with one type of container or the other over the whole system, they would have been far better off. The cargo can system incompatibility is a huge and ridiculously obvious blunder.

- And DHL's biggest screw up was the Labor Day Massacre when John Fellows fired three thousand loyal DHL delivery couriers. In one day he lost three thousand ambassadors that represented DHL to millions of customers all over the country and replaced them with thousands of contract workers who couldn't have given a damn about DHL or their customers. Had the Airborne drivers been added to the original DHL courier group and integrated with seniority, DHL would have had the industry's most loyal and experienced army of foot soldiers. That massacre cost DHL millions of customers - a loss that still damages their bottom line.

So what did Hete's refusal to play ball have to do with DHL's losses in the US? Well, they obviously had a plan and he stopped it. So whatever time and money they had invested in the buyout were gone and now, they are pissed at him. Do they have the right answer? I don't know. Probably not. I have yet to see DHL make a sound decision. Does Hete have the answer? I don't know. But I don't see the Germans listening to him any more than he will listen to them. It seems that greed and arrogance go hand in hand.

 

[aviatrix767]

ABXbooger,

... and finally


AVIATRIX,

You contribute nothing useful or intelligent to these boards. Your 15 minutes of fame are up.

Either SHUT UP or APOLOGIZE or BOTH.

********************************************

Nice.... I do not take orders from you or anyone else here (with the exception of the moderators.) But I will not apologize...EVER. I have no reason to apologize. I stand by my original post. If anyone should apologize, it's the group of neanderthals that resorted to name-calling. And let's not forget the comments that were generally degrading to women in general.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

********************************************

Nice.... I do not take orders from you or anyone else here (with the exception of the moderators.) But I will not apologize...EVER. I have no reason to apologize. I stand by my original post. If anyone should apologize, it's the group of neanderthals that resorted to name-calling. And let's not forget the comments that were generally degrading to women in general.

AVIATRIX,

Once again, you show your ignorance.

I have neither resorted to name calling nor defamation of women.

YOU, on the other hand, have published extremely erroneous and slanderous remarks about our pilot group. Your posts are inflammatory, crude, and devoid of facts. You have clearly and decisively been proven wrong and yet you are too weak to own up and admit it. You dishonor hundreds of decent ABX pilots.

You should be ashamed.