Astar/ABX -- Teamster or ALPA?

[Cargoav8or]

I don’t think so. Ask some of our gov’t affairs committee members about the reception they get in congressional offices. One of em tells a story about how a bunch of pilots were meeting with various congressmen on some issue. When they were introduced to one of the congressmen in his office, as soon as our guy said he represented Teamsters, the congressman grabbed his hand, pulled him past all the ALPA guys, and sat him down in front. It seems the Teamsters could swing quite a few more votes in the congressman’s district than ALPA. That’ll be true in every congressional district.
We all know money talks in Congress. I don’t know for sure, but I’ll bet the Teamster lobby has more $$ than the ALPA lobby.

I'm sure we are all getting stories from the various sides. Without being there I can't tell you which ones or true or not. It is only my perception and you have yours. I see 60,000 Alpa members and have no idea how many airline teamster members there are. I can't see them have a large sway in the airline industry. If, If this whole thing shakes out it should be interesting.

I'm out.

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

We all need to change tack

right now I wish I was a member of the IPA...

You and me both brother.

But I've got 11 years invested in this place and I ain't no spring chicken. So I'm riding this mule till the mule can't be ridden anymore. I'm sure you feel the same about your own situation.

Peeps, everyone,
However this plays out, there is NO reason Our Two Groups, You and I, everyone, can't make this work. Our Two Groups, You and I, should not be combatants. Every merger I ever read about always seems to be contentious and lopsided. Why is that? Who eventually benefits from a split and divided group? I'll let you all answer that for yourselves.
I know this sounds like a "why can't we all just get along" plea. Well maybe it is. But remember this; Our Two Groups, You and I should not be enemies. The enemies are the ones that sit in their crystal palaces and cabanas with Golden Parachutes strapped to their backs paid for by You, Me, Our Two Groups.

Now pardon me while I slip into my Nomex jammies for the flame fest.

 

[AV8OR]

hey, my airplane has flat screen! Four of em in fact!

Touche' peng......touche'

 

[penguin22]

You and me both brother.

But I've got 11 years invested in this place and I ain't no spring chicken. So I'm riding this mule till the mule can't be ridden anymore. I'm sure you feel the same about your own situation.

Peeps, everyone,
However this plays out, there is NO reason Our Two Groups, You and I, everyone, can't make this work. Our Two Groups, You and I, should not be combatants. Every merger I ever read about always seems to be contentious and lopsided. Why is that? Who eventually benefits from a split and divided group? I'll let you all answer that for yourselves.
I know this sounds like a "why can't we all just get along" plea. Well maybe it is. But remember this; Our Two Groups, You and I should not be enemies. The enemies are the ones that sit in their crystal palaces and cabanas with Golden Parachutes strapped to their backs paid for by You, Me, Our Two Groups.

Now pardon me while I slip into my Nomex jammies for the flame fest.

No flames from me. except to light your cigar.

Well said.

 

[ABXbooger]

No flames. From my position, this could very well be a good thing, for everyone. I am in a bad position seniority wise and am nervous about what will happen short-term (furloughs...again). Long term, I think this provides the stability that we all look for in a career. DHL is going to grow, and has made huge strides in the last years.

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

First off, its ABX that has the holding company, but its Astar (Dasburg) that is trying to buy ABX. And we think we would get merged because Dasburg said it himself in his letter to ABX’s BOD..

“Accordingly, we believe that we would well serve our respective shareholders and other stakeholders by exploring a potential merger between our two companies. We also believe that this should be done in an expeditious fashion so as to avoid unnecessary disruption of ABX's and ASTAR's employees, customers and businesses.”

P'22 & Booger Thanks for the nod.

As for the holding company thing, this is from the same letter:

"As you are aware, beginning in December 2006, ABX Air chief executive officer and president Joe Hete and I have had informal conversations in which I, on behalf of ASTAR, advised Mr. Hete of ASTAR's desire to pursue an all-cash acquisition of ABX Air. On June 19, 2007, I advised Mr. Hete telephonically that the boards of directors of ASTAR Air Cargo Holdings, LLC and its subsidiaries (collectively, "ASTAR")"

I had no idea (and that's exactly the way Dasburg wants it) that our corperate structure was such. What else does Cabana Boy have hiding up his sleeve. On second thought, I might not want to know.

 

[hvydriver]

hey, my airplane has flat screen! Four of em in fact!

LOL! Well, ok, but can you get football on that thing? Oh, someone else was saying that Astar doesn't have a holding company. In fact, we do. Astar Air Cargo Holdings, LLC. Which owns Astar. There could be a lot of movin' and groovin' going on before the dust settles over this deal. (Edited, 'cause someone beat me to the holding company thingy. DUHOH!)

 

[Cargoav8or]

LOL! Well, ok, but can you get football on that thing? Oh, someone else was saying that Astar doesn't have a holding company. In fact, we do. Astar Air Cargo Holdings, LLC. Which owns Astar. There could be a lot of movin' and groovin' going on before the dust settles over this deal. (Edited, 'cause someone beat me to the holding company thingy. DUHOH!)

OOOHHH, bummer.

 

[shooter]

P'22 & Booger Thanks for the nod.

As for the holding company thing, this is from the same letter:

"As you are aware, beginning in December 2006, ABX Air chief executive officer and president Joe Hete and I have had informal conversations in which I, on behalf of ASTAR, advised Mr. Hete of ASTAR's desire to pursue an all-cash acquisition of ABX Air. On June 19, 2007, I advised Mr. Hete telephonically that the boards of directors of ASTAR Air Cargo Holdings, LLC and its subsidiaries (collectively, "ASTAR")"

I had no idea (and that's exactly the way Dasburg wants it) that our corperate structure was such. What else does Cabana Boy have hiding up his sleeve. On second thought, I might not want to know.

I would think ASTAR Air Cargo Holdings was formed when Dasburg and his investor group bought DHL Airways from Robinson.

Its still a big puzzle why ABX is forming such a structure.

 

[hanginupsidown]

You and me both brother.

But I've got 11 years invested in this place and I ain't no spring chicken. So I'm riding this mule till the mule can't be ridden anymore. I'm sure you feel the same about your own situation.

Peeps, everyone,
However this plays out, there is NO reason Our Two Groups, You and I, everyone, can't make this work. Our Two Groups, You and I, should not be combatants. Every merger I ever read about always seems to be contentious and lopsided. Why is that? Who eventually benefits from a split and divided group? I'll let you all answer that for yourselves.
I know this sounds like a "why can't we all just get along" plea. Well maybe it is. But remember this; Our Two Groups, You and I should not be enemies. The enemies are the ones that sit in their crystal palaces and cabanas with Golden Parachutes strapped to their backs paid for by You, Me, Our Two Groups.

Now pardon me while I slip into my Nomex jammies for the flame fest.

Hit the nail on the head!!! Needless to say Alpa and Teamsters both offer have attractive options. Alpa's national legislative voice is well heard but not necessarily representing the needs of a small cargo airline. I wonder how many decisions have been made in regards to AStar/Alpa with FDX's and the other legacy carriers only interests at heart. Teamsters doesn't exactly bode well in some areas either, but since our inception in the 80's in which Alpa snubbed us they've been totally supportive both nationally and internationally of all 1224's needs. Leverage has definitely been a benefit. We've had some hard fought contracts that DHL/Astar has benefited from, thanks to our hard nose mgmnt. that just unified us even more. IPA has benefited greatly, mainly from unity and use of resources. So no matter what affiliation we decide on, our effectiveness as a union- collaterally will only be apparent by our unity. Hence, IPA....It'a about time we joined sides!

 

[PCL_128]

I don’t think so. Ask some of our gov’t affairs committee members about the reception they get in congressional offices. One of em tells a story about how a bunch of pilots were meeting with various congressmen on some issue. When they were introduced to one of the congressmen in his office, as soon as our guy said he represented Teamsters, the congressman grabbed his hand, pulled him past all the ALPA guys, and sat him down in front. It seems the Teamsters could swing quite a few more votes in the congressman’s district than ALPA. That’ll be true in every congressional district.
We all know money talks in Congress. I don’t know for sure, but I’ll bet the Teamster lobby has more $$ than the ALPA lobby.

When important members of Congress such as Rep. Mica or Senator Oberstar (both important Committee Chairmen that handle pilot issues) want to know where air line pilots stand, they call one place: the ALPA offices. As far as Congress is concerned, there is only one union that represents pilots. Most of them wouldn't even be aware that Teamsters has an airline division, and they certainly haven't heard of the IPA, NPA, FAPA, etc... When they think pilots, they think ALPA.

 

[PCL_128]

Are the teamsters back into the AFLCIO.

Nope. In fact, the IBT still owes the AFL-CIO millions in dues from when they skipped out a couple of years ago.

 

[freighthound]

When important members of Congress such as Rep. Mica or Senator Oberstar (both important Committee Chairmen that handle pilot issues) want to know where air line pilots stand, they call one place: the ALPA offices. As far as Congress is concerned, there is only one union that represents pilots. Most of them wouldn't even be aware that Teamsters has an airline division, and they certainly haven't heard of the IPA, NPA, FAPA, etc... When they think pilots, they think ALPA.

Another uninformed pilot, but keep those dues coming ALPA national needs to keep those half million dollar salaries going.

 

[TWA]

I had no idea (and that's exactly the way Dasburg wants it) that our corperate structure was such. What else does Cabana Boy have hiding up his sleeve. On second thought, I might not want to know.

That's the beautiful thing about a privately held company, they don't have to tell anyone anything. There are no shareholders to answer to.

 

[ABXbooger]

A Message from General President Jim Hoffa

June 29, 2007

On Thursday ASTAR Air Cargo Holdings announced its intentions to purchase ABX Air. I assure employees of both companies that as this potential merger proceeds the Teamsters Union is closely monitoring developments and will act to ensure you have a voice.

We will fight for the interests of all employees at ABX and ASTAR. This includes the more than 700 ABX pilots, who are longstanding members of Local 1224 in Wilmington, Ohio and ABX mechanics, sort workers, ground service and other employees who are working to join our union. We are also monitoring the situation of our members and other workers at ASTAR.

Since DHL bought Airborne Express, we have viewed the company and its related parts as an integrated delivery system. More than 12,000 workers in the DHL system are Teamsters and we are working to ensure our members have a strong voice during any change in the workplace.

After DHL recently decided to purchase a greater stake in ASTAR, we encouraged the company to provide an investment in ABX Air. The pending merger of these two companies, along with the significant investment by DHL, opens a new chapter for DHL in North America. While details of the possible merger are still undetermined, we believe that it will ultimately benefit Teamsters and unrepresented workers in the DHL system.

As the merger proceeds over the next several months, I assure all workers in the DHL system that the entire membership and leadership of the Teamsters Union stands with you.

 

[LarryinTN]

Yeah, who would you rather have standing behind you when push comes to shove? Jimmy Hoffa or John Prator? Hoffa has personally stepped in on our behalf on a number of occasions, always with swift and favorable results.

A large number of us have been ALPA at previous carriers. We know what it means to be represented by ALPA and the majority of us prefer IBT. With the IBT we have much more control over the direction we take while still having the significant support of the Teamsters behind us when it's needed.

With regard to legislative affairs, IBT wins hands down. Our own guys have spent many hours on Captial hill and they report that having "...from the Teamsters" behind their name will open any representative's door. The IBT carriers much more clout on Capital Hill than does ALPA. Our own guys have been there and seen it themselves.

 

[shooter]

ABXbooger and LJ-ABX, it sounds like the IBT wants ABX to be bought out by ASTAR. Other than increased union membership (ie dues) tell me how it will help the people who do not want to operate under ASTAR or DHL management or the ones who no longer have a job? Or the guys who are lucky to still have a job do not get a chance to upgrade to 767 from the -9 due to ASTAR pilots getting the upgrade? What does the IBT say to them? Just curious as this will most likely be my last aviation job if this goes through.

p.s. thanks for the response in advance.

After DHL recently decided to purchase a greater stake in ASTAR, we encouraged the company to provide an investment in ABX Air. The pending merger of these two companies, along with the significant investment by DHL, opens a new chapter for DHL in North America. While details of the possible merger are still undetermined, we believe that it will ultimately benefit Teamsters and unrepresented workers in the DHL system.

 

[LarryinTN]

I don't really understand the basis for the question. Haven't we all thought from the day that the DHL buyout was announced that a merged airline would be better for all of us?

I have no idea how the details of the proposed buyout and presumed merge will work as that is yet to be decided. In the long run, a merged airline should provide better security, stability and opportunity for all of the pilots flying the yellow airplanes. Over the short-term, change is always unsettling and stressful but will we get past that.

As you may recall, DHL asked for more 767s in their system but Hete wasn't willing to give them to them at current ACMI rates. After this transaction, I'm thinking that we'll see a lot more 767s going into the DHL system and probably a lot more 767 acquisitions. It is the logical step for replacing all of the current DC8s and A300s. I also foresee the combined airline moving to a DC9/727 replacement as well.

The solution to many of the problems facing both pilot groups is more airplanes and this deal looks like a good step in that direction.

 

[shooter]

I don't really understand the basis for the question. Haven't we all thought from the day that the DHL buyout was announced that a merged airline would be better for all of us?

I have no idea how the details of the proposed buyout and presumed merge will work as that is yet to be decided. In the long run, a merged airline should provide better security, stability and opportunity for all of the pilots flying the yellow airplanes. Over the short-term, change is always unsettling and stressful but will we get past that.

As you may recall, DHL asked for more 767s in their system but Hete wasn't willing to give them to them at current ACMI rates. After this transaction, I'm thinking that we'll see a lot more 767s going into the DHL system and probably a lot more 767 acquisitions. It is the logical step for replacing all of the current DC8s and A300s. I also foresee the combined airline moving to a DC9/727 replacement as well.

The solution to many of the problems facing both pilot groups is more airplanes and this deal looks like a good step in that direction.

maybe yes, if it were ABX buying out ASTAR maybe I would look at it in a different light because you have a management team in ABX that has been growing the company for over 25 years. The management team at ASTAR could not even get the airline RVSM compliant in time, no purchase of a modern fleet, I just read all the woes posted by the ASTAR pilots on this and other forums. It just looks like the combined airline will be run into the ground and the laughing stock of the industry with their management team. I am sure the pilots and workers are 95% great (like anywhere else) it's the management team that scares me. And if you want to know how I feel about DHL management...whooooo....how much time do you have? That signature line below my posts was created for them. You guys do not even see 1/4 of the BS they come up with. If you only knew what they ask us to try to get you guys to do. whew!

 

[LarryinTN]

I don't think that either company has a monopoly on bad management. It will be interested to see how management is consolidated if this proposal comes to pass.

 

[shooter]

I don't think that either company has a monopoly on bad management. It will be interested to see how management is consolidated if this proposal comes to pass.

the lesser of the evils, I guess. But DHL management, they seem to be here to stay.

 

[hvydriver]

Shooter,

FWIW, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in this right now. I know that any kind of merger talk is unsettling, but this really is a long way off from any kind of "done deal" it would seem to me. Of course, now that I've said that, they'll announce a deal tomorrow.

 

[Cargoav8or]

maybe yes, if it were ABX buying out ASTAR maybe I would look at it in a different light because you have a management team in ABX that has been growing the company for over 25 years. The management team at ASTAR could not even get the airline RVSM compliant in time, no purchase of a modern fleet, I just read all the woes posted by the ASTAR pilots on this and other forums. It just looks like the combined airline will be run into the ground and the laughing stock of the industry with their management team. I am sure the pilots and workers are 95% great (like anywhere else) it's the management team that scares me. And if you want to know how I feel about DHL management...whooooo....how much time do you have? That signature line below my posts was created for them. You guys do not even see 1/4 of the BS they come up with. If you only knew what they ask us to try to get you guys to do. whew!

A Eastern scab for a D/O and Evergreen maint noid for the Senior VP. You have a right to worry.

 

[abxdx]

Just curoius,

Most of the articles that I read refer to this transaction as a buyout and not a merger. Do the pilots have a clause in there contract that intergrates them into ASTAR's pilot group based on seniorty, or will ABX's #1 guy be just below the lowest Astar guy? This may have been already addressed I was not sure...

 

[two(2)%]

Just curoius,

Most of the articles that I read refer to this transaction as a buyout and not a merger. Do the pilots have a clause in there contract that intergrates them into ASTAR's pilot group based on seniorty, or will ABX's #1 guy be just below the lowest Astar guy? This may have been already addressed I was not sure...

Uh-oh! This must be the elephant in the (chat)room,
or forum:bomb:

 

[TWA]

2%, I like your signature, Thinking outside the cornfield. That's what ABX needs, not a buyout.

 

[Box-Hauler]

TWA is your Avatar a Comp 8, and if so is it yours, and if so where can I get a ride........

 

[TWA]

TWA is your Avatar a Comp 8, and if so is it yours, and if so where can I get a ride........

I wish. It's a Quest Kodiak, a new turbine STOL aircraft that will soon be in production. I got a chance to see it at Oshkosh last year, and it is one fine plane. A little smaller than a Caravan with twice the performance.

 

[erichartmann]

Shooter,

FWIW, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in this right now. I know that any kind of merger talk is unsettling, but this really is a long way off from any kind of "done deal" it would seem to me. Of course, now that I've said that, they'll announce a deal tomorrow.

Hvy, I'm with you. FWIW, IMHO Hete has said no to Dasburg already. That's why the press release of the "informal offer". Soon to come in newspaper near you will be another press release saying no deal will be made. The goal will be to kick the support out from under ABXA's share price so that Daz's $7.75 looks to good to turn down. The key will be what DHL does. If they in turn announce they are considering not renewing ABX's ACMI...

 

[abxaviator]

With the continued talk of the company about a Japan domicile, I urge you to read this thread; I'm sure the Company is watching this very closely.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=100145