Aspen VFR

[asolo]

I can't get an IFR reservation into Aspen. On a clear day, how hard is it to get in there? Do the controllers give you any crap?! I have to pick up my pax at 9:00 in the morning tomorrow (sat) Thanks in adavance

 

[g4800xp]

Great question, ya know pre 911 you could fly to JFK/LGA/ORD with out a slot as long as you land VFR, perfectly legal but that was pre 911 I don't know if it has changed. Anybody know if that will help him out?

 

[unreal]

Commercial aircraft have to get IFR reservations? Back in '03, a buddy of mine and I took a Seminole there IFR and didn't do anything beyond simply file the flightplan. Weird...

 

[avbug]

Any of the reservatiosn fields are busy enough that you really don't need to try to circumvent the system by sneaking in VFR. That's why there's a slot system. The ramp is crowded enough as it is, aspen being one way in one way out with constant traffic, you could try showing up VFR, but you probably shouldn't.

I've seen a few folks over the years who thought they were smarter than the system...when it was working for them, they were happy to cooperate, but the moment they thought they could do better, they'd cancel IFR and try to go it on their own. The system works because of cooperation. If you can't get a slot, then try Eagle. If you can't ge that, try Rifle. If you can't get in there, have them drive to GJT.

 

[asolo]

THanks. That's what thought would be the answer. Got them to drive up to EGE in the morning. Thanks for the help.

 

[avbug]

Commercial aircraft have to get IFR reservations? Back in '03, a buddy of mine and I took a Seminole there IFR and didn't do anything beyond simply file the flightplan. Weird...

Wierd indeed. Did your buddy make this flight during the winter months in a Seminole into Aspen, when the STMP program is in effect? If so, not smart, and doubtful, too.

The reservation slot system applies to everyone arriving under IFR. You really don't want to depend on being able to go in VFR during the winter months, even though weather can at times be excellent and clear VMC. Due to the traffic and the high useage of the field, VFR isn't a good idea in the winter months, and the traffic mangement is based on everyone participating.

You can read more about it at:

http://www.fly.faa.gov/estmp/index.html

Traditionally, the large fractional operators tend to hog up all the reservations as quickly as they can each day to ensure they can meet their passenger demands. Accordingly, get your slot as soon as able, else you may not make it there at all.

 

[unreal]

Wierd indeed. Did your buddy make this flight during the winter months in a Seminole into Aspen, when the STMP program is in effect? If so, not smart, and doubtful, too.

The reservation slot system applies to everyone arriving under IFR. You really don't want to depend on being able to go in VFR during the winter months, even though weather can at times be excellent and clear VMC. Due to the traffic and the high useage of the field, VFR isn't a good idea in the winter months, and the traffic mangement is based on everyone participating.

You can read more about it at:

http://www.fly.faa.gov/estmp/index.html

Traditionally, the large fractional operators tend to hog up all the reservations as quickly as they can each day to ensure they can meet their passenger demands. Accordingly, get your slot as soon as able, else you may not make it there at all.

Ahh, I see how we did it. We went in mid November before the program went into effect.

 

[g4800xp]

I agree it is bad for everyone to cheat the system, screws evryone and that is true in Aspen. I am curious if it applies to STMP s like it did slots. I had a trip to JFK years ago and could not get a slot. I had a visit with a controller who said it was legal to shoot an approach and land without a slot as long as the landing was legal VFR. I ended up getting a slot last minute, would not have done it, not a chance, but interesting to know you could. Can it be done on a STMP?. Don't go blasting me, I am just wondering.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I don't see anything particularly "bad" about going into Aspen VFR during "slot season." It's done all the time by piston pilots who wouldn't be able to get up to the MEAs needed to fly IFR to begin with.

Of course, there are two practical considerations:

1. There is always the chance of being told to go away or remain clear for a substantial amount of time.

2. Too many aircraft doing it and causing a problem will likely result in greater restrictions anyway.

 

[avbug]

I popped over the hill from Eagle and dropped in there VFR this summer. Yes, you can fly VFR, and no, the STMP program doesn't apply to VFR. However, the slot program is there for a reason. There's typically a very steady stream of traffic in and out, and it's not the best place to choose for VFR flight operations.

Add to that the fact that weather there can change suddenly, and once it does the ability to remain VFR becomes very skethy...plus the constant traffic density there, and you're best served going elsewhere if you're going VFR. Particularly if you're doing it to buck the system and get in without a slot. Very poor form, very inconsiderate, good way to cause problems for others, and potentially a definite safety issue, too. Pick a field which isn't STMP...if you're headed to that neck of the woods, you're much better served to try GJT instead, and drive up. It's not that far, and it's a nice drive. Most of the time.

 

[AngelKing]

I popped over the hill from Eagle and dropped in there VFR this summer. Yes, you can fly VFR, and no, the STMP program doesn't apply to VFR. However, the slot program is there for a reason. There's typically a very steady stream of traffic in and out, and it's not the best place to choose for VFR flight operations.

Add to that the fact that weather there can change suddenly, and once it does the ability to remain VFR becomes very skethy...plus the constant traffic density there, and you're best served going elsewhere if you're going VFR. Particularly if you're doing it to buck the system and get in without a slot. Very poor form, very inconsiderate, good way to cause problems for others, and potentially a definite safety issue, too. Pick a field which isn't STMP...if you're headed to that neck of the woods, you're much better served to try GJT instead, and drive up. It's not that far, and it's a nice drive. Most of the time.

Lets see if I have this straight, you admit you went in there VFR, then list a bunch of reasons not to. So ok for you, and not for anyone else?

AK

 

[avbug]

Ah, no, you don't have it straight

We're talking about slot arrivals into ASE in the winter, when the STMP program is in effect. You'll note I went in there in the summer. The STMP program is not in effect in the summer. It's not nearly as busy, either.

You'll note I pointed out that flying into places like ASE in the winter, when the weather is more likely to change, can be a problem, especially VFR. I didn't go in the winter VFR, and I went over VFR in clear weather during the summer.

 

[asolo]

Thanks for all the replies. I had the pax drive up to EGE and all was well. Just a note: For going into ASE the first time, I made the reservations via the FAA's website and had no problem. For going in the second time, I had Universal make the reservation for me ($25 each). Thought that would relieve me of having to take time out of my day to do it myself. I wasn't impressed. They didn't get the reservation (I know, Univeral does not promise that they will get it). I think I would have been better off doing it myself. Anyway, if you need to get a reservation, I think it's better to just do it on the website and time it just right. Good luck and thanks for all your help! Blue Skies

 

[Guitar rocker]

. Very poor form, very inconsiderate, good way to cause problems for others, and potentially a definite safety issue, too. Pick a field which isn't STMP...if you're headed to that neck of the woods, you're much better served to try GJT instead, and drive up. It's not that far, and it's a nice drive. Most of the time.

But Avbug, thats not really fair to generalize that if your only VFR and its on a clear winter day in ASE that your in "very poor form." I hope that your not implying that we should restrict VFR pilots from going into and out of ASE in the winter months.

 

[avbug]

Most certainly we should restrict operations which do not have a slot from using STMP airports when STMP proceedures are in effect...that's exactly what I'm suggesting...because that's the purpose of having STMP proceedures in the first place.

Airports that busy don't need hokel yokel busting into the place to disrupt a program in place. If somene wants in, get with the program, period...or go somewhere else and drive.

This is where we are right now. You don't have to obtain a slot. You can go VFR. The tower does not need to allow you to land, or to admit you to the airport. Considering the frequency of daily operations when STMP is in effect, those wishing to bully their way through the VFR "loophole" really ought to think again, make other plans, and have alternates available...because there's a high probability of needing them.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Most certainly we should restrict operations which do not have a slot from using STMP airports when STMP proceedures are in effect...that's exactly what I'm suggesting...because that's the purpose of having STMP proceedures in the first place.

Airports that busy don't need hokel yokel busting into the place to disrupt a program in place. If somene wants in, get with the program, period...or go somewhere else and drive.

This is where we are right now. You don't have to obtain a slot. You can go VFR. The tower does not need to allow you to land, or to admit you to the airport. Considering the frequency of daily operations when STMP is in effect, those wishing to bully their way through the VFR "loophole" really ought to think again, make other plans, and have alternates available...because there's a high probability of needing them.

Sure, I agree, they should make other plans. Kinda like taking the risk and going VFR to BOS when the winds are wippin out of the NW and they are in the 33L/27 configuration. But I just dont think that it's fair to say that if your VFR only (with no instrument rating) that you are in "poor form." Thats all yah can do and it's up to the tower to say yay or nay. Thats all. I agree with everything else that yah said though.

 

[avbug]

That's not all you can do at all. You can exercise some judgement and discretion and go to GJT instead...which is where you have a lot more options available if things do turn sour, than Aspen. One shouldn't even try to break into the system...the proceedures are there for a reason.

 

[g4800xp]

A lot of good points and ideas, the same basic thoughts the airlines use at ORD,JFK,LGA, keep the little bizjets out, they crowd OUR airport. I agree you should get a stmp to arrive in a 172 or a G550 in to ASE, I used to fly there a lot in singles both winter and summer before stmps. But since everyone gets bent over most anything that gets in their way, someone will say that no one should be allowed in under say 100 knots because they slow the system for real airplanes and pilots. As a tax payer funding the system and aircraft operator I should have the right to do what is legal and if I choose to land vfr at an airport that will allow it, I just may. Have you ever been there on winter day wondering why it is not busier? They have made good progress with the system but the frax guys were sucking up the slots and going unused so places like GJT can get swamped and ASE operate under capacity. After the boss has DRIVEN to ASE and passes the airport heading to town and it is now half empty, you can have some explaining to do. I am still with you, get a slot or go elsewhere, but I can not blame a guy for "working" the system to get the mission accomplished if he can do it legally. The guys that chap me are the ones that do that stuff as a rule and is standard operating procedures. I have not landed at a STMP airport under VFR to cheat the system and do not intend to, but I can not honestly say I won't someday.
Before the fire bombs start flying, I fly legal and by the book, follow the rules and believe it is my duty to fit in and flow with the system. But I don't think is a bad idea to have a planA,B.C and so on, on a flight. Knowledge is power. All I wondered in an earlier post was if it was still legal to land vfr at a slot airport, not if it was ethical. We all know it is not ethical, but rolling thru stopsigns, not using a turn signal, speeding, decending ONE FOOT below minimums, figuring out runway performance for a dry runway when it is damp or wet, those things are illegal and or unethical but do you ever do them as well? Just curious.
I am glad to have a job now where i can tell them to just plan GJT not ASE in advance and they say " your the pilot, if you say GJT we go to GJT"

 

[avbug]

We all know it is not ethical, but rolling thru stopsigns, not using a turn signal, speeding, decending ONE FOOT below minimums, figuring out runway performance for a dry runway when it is damp or wet, those things are illegal and or unethical but do you ever do them as well? Just curious.

To satisfy your curiosty...no, I don't do those things.

Yes, I've been into Aspen for years, summer and winter, and no, I don't play the system. You speak about it as though the ATC system is the "man" trying to keep us all down. Sort of an aviation ghettospeak. Got a problem with traffic density...go somewhere else. You can blame the airlines, the fractional operations, ATC...you can blame anyone you want, but this doesn't change the fact that enough of the public use these fields that the traffic density dictates proceedures be placed in effect to safely handle it.

I don't for a minute buy the arguement that you or I or anyone else is a citizen and should therefore demand our rights to use these places despite traffic density. It just doesn't work that way. As a pedestrian citizen you may demand your right of way when crossing the street in front of a speeding eighteen wheeler, too. Or a busy highway...after all, the pedestrian usually has the right of way, just like you have the right to try to get in some place VFR. Of course, most people know that stepping in front of a speeding semi truck, or walking across a busy highway just because one may have the right of way, is stupidity, and wouldn't do it. Hopefully people can use as much sense about ASE, SUN, etc, when the proceedures are in effect.

 

[g4800xp]

I agree with you on all of it Avbug. The system is getting better.
On a nice day, low and slow in a single, there are few places as scenic or demanding as theRockies to fly around.