Aspen Approach

[2EASYPilot]

For those of you familiar with the approaches at Aspen...does the Loc Dme E approach require special approval or training. If not, how often is it used or made available.

 

[h25b]

From when I used to go in there I never used it or had been in there when it was in use. From reading the chart there is no mention of special aircraft/crew req's. However, I always request that I perform the approach in every recurrent session.

Most operators that I know use the, "if the airport is not in sight at DBL, we go somewhere else..."

 

[rice]

No, the Loc/Dme E DOES NOT require special approval. However the LOC/DME 15 DOES. They have the exact same FAC but the LOC/DME 15 gets you much lower and has 11 exceptions to standard TERPS criteria. Also because of the lower mins, the MAP procedure requires much more of the aircraft and the crew. Hence, the SAAAR requirement. FSI (TEB and TUSCON) have the training programs available. Plan on adding an extra day or two to recurrent to get the ground/sim work done.
I have been qualified on both the GPS Z and the LOC/DME 15 and I'm here to tell you that even after you've completed the training required you SHOULD make at least 3 approaches in day Vmc in the aircraft prior to attempting the real thing. You'll also need to get perf data from Jepp or APG to ensure you'll meet the required MAP climb gradients for the respective conditions.

 

[Rick1128]

No, the Loc/Dme E DOES NOT require special approval. However the LOC/DME 15 DOES. They have the exact same FAC but the LOC/DME 15 gets you much lower and has 11 exceptions to standard TERPS criteria. Also because of the lower mins, the MAP procedure requires much more of the aircraft and the crew. Hence, the SAAAR requirement. FSI (TEB and TUSCON) have the training programs available. Plan on adding an extra day or two to recurrent to get the ground/sim work done.
I have been qualified on both the GPS Z and the LOC/DME 15 and I'm here to tell you that even after you've completed the training required you SHOULD make at least 3 approaches in day Vmc in the aircraft prior to attempting the real thing. You'll also need to get perf data from Jepp or APG to ensure you'll meet the required MAP climb gradients for the respective conditions.

At my last recurrent at Tucson we did our high hot takeoffs out of ASE. It was quite interesting. We don't normally go there so we don't have the SAAR program and don't have any intension of getting it. But V1 cuts at ASE with the Lindz departure are quite enlightening. And YES you can make it if you use the performance charts properly.

 

[HMR]

Most operators that I know use the, "if the airport is not in sight at DBL, we go somewhere else..."

That's what we use. We're in and out of ASE 20+ times per year. The boss keeps a full-size SUV at GJT for use if there's "even a hint of bad weather". I was on the golf course with the boss a couple weeks ago and he gave me his semi-annual talk on safe operations @ ASE.

What a welcome change from my old boss whose mantra was, "I DIDN'T BUY A MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR JET TO DIVERT TO GRAND JUNCTION!!!"

 

[h25b]

That's what we use. We're in and out of ASE 20+ times per year. The boss keeps a full-size SUV at GJT for use if there's "even a hint of bad weather". I was on the golf course with the boss a couple weeks ago and he gave me his semi-annual talk on safe operations @ ASE.

What a welcome change from my old boss whose mantra was, "I DIDN'T BUY A MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR JET TO DIVERT TO GRAND JUNCTION!!!"

I know what you mean... We used to go out of there with the Hawkers and limped out of there every time.

The "DBL Minimum" is IMHO is the way to operate and it is in use by a number of operators.

 

[rice]

The "DBL Minimum" is IMHO in the way to operate and it is in use by a number of operators.[/quote]

Very good advice!!!!!!!
In fact if I weren't in a 900 or 50 and very light on fuel I wouldn't even think of flying the LOC/DME 15. The missed is just to demanding of the aircraft and the crew. Another point many don't consider is what would you do if you descend below the MDA but have a balked landing (for whatever reason). If you haven't planned and trained for that occurence then you'll likely become the next statistic.

 

[h25b]

Very good advice!!!!!!!
In fact if I weren't in a 900 or 50 and very light on fuel I wouldn't even think of flying the LOC/DME 15. The missed is just to demanding of the aircraft and the crew. Another point many don't consider is what would you do if you descend below the MDA but have a balked landing (for whatever reason). If you haven't planned and trained for that occurence then you'll likely become the next statistic.

I haven't flown either (unfortunately) but I would say that the 900EX and 50EX are the perfect equipment for that airport...

The balked landing scenerio is under considered. I believe if I sat down and thought about it I have gone around more from below 200' AGL than I have from above 200' AGL. In other words, I think I have gone around less for weather (ceilings/vis.) than I have for other variables...

 

[gutshotdraw]

The airport manager finally blinked. Paperwork has been signed and returned to FAA for final approval.

Beginning this winter, Netjets Gulfstream aircraft (not that G-200 thingy) will begin using a P-RNAV/VNAV approach to ASE that roughly follows the path of the Roaring Fork river. Minimums of about 600 AGL and 1 1/4 mile for G-IV, 500 and 1 mile for G-V. Although coded in everybody's database, it is a proprietary approach and will only be assigned to QS aircraft. It will be approved for night approaches too.

One word: Yikes!

 

[Rick1128]

The airport manager finally blinked. Paperwork has been signed and returned to FAA for final approval.

Beginning this winter, Netjets Gulfstream aircraft (not that G-200 thingy) will begin using a P-RNAV/VNAV approach to ASE that roughly follows the path of the Roaring Fork river. Minimums of about 600 AGL and 1 1/4 mile for G-IV, 500 and 1 mile for G-V. Although coded in everybody's database, it is a proprietary approach and will only be assigned to QS aircraft. It will be approved for night approaches too.

One word: Yikes!

I used to do the old VOR approach at night all the time in a CV580, many years ago. Veeeeeeery Interesting.

 

[Diesel]

Just went in there this week. I'm glad nj has a high mins fact. Its black or white.

Gutshotdraw. You guys are going to have a fun time this winter.

 

[Best Seat]

Anyone else excited about the airport closure for a couple of weeks next spring? Go to the airport home page and read all about it!

 

[Bandit60]

Don't forget that all the approaches are considered circling and Cat C, and alot of aircraft while flying in circling configuration cannot maintain Cat C speeds. If you cannot meet Cat C speeds then the whole approach is mute.

 

[HMR]

The missed is just to demanding of the aircraft and the crew. Another point many don't consider is what would you do if you descend below the MDA but have a balked landing (for whatever reason). If you haven't planned and trained for that occurence then you'll likely become the next statistic.

Yep! The first time I did it it in the sim I accelerated to 200+ KIAS, engaged the autopilot and blew right through the LOC BC on the missed. It was an eye opener. I ended up climbing out @ V2+10 the next time I tried. The turn from the MAP to the LOC BC is TIGHT!

Last winter I climbed to the top of one of the ridges SE of downtown and scoped out some of the escape routes I always thought I'd use in the event of a balked landing. Again, it was an eye opener. I'm glad we bought a DA50.

 

[SCT]

It's been awhile since I've been into Aspen. Can someone post a link to the chart for the LOC/ DME E.....

This is a good discussion.

Thanks-

 

[Rythm3]

It's been awhile since I've been into Aspen. Can someone post a link to the chart for the LOC/ DME E.....

This is a good discussion.

Thanks-

Try this link:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0608/05889LDE.PDF

 

[XLDaddy]

Anyone else excited about the airport closure for a couple of weeks next spring? Go to the airport home page and read all about it!

While they're at why don't they just bulldoze the whole place and turn it into a parking lot for snowmass. When I was working at my old co. I used to fly in there 20-25 times a year, didn't get the field by allix we were gone. I bumped into this jerk at TEB and he goes on and on about how great a place he thinks it is and loves flying in and out of there in his old hawker. Then he tells me he's been in there only twice, both times in the spring. I wanted to slug him right there, what a tool.

 

[maximizer]

notice of proposed rulemaking---length of runway must exceed elevation.:beer:

 

[G4G5]

Did you mean that filed elevation should not exceed runway length?

Speaking of FE. Look at the elevation at each of the ASE rwy, then look at the ARP and you tell me what the slope is?

 

[maximizer]

that's what i meant....nice rule

 

[HMR]

Speaking of FE. Look at the elevation at each of the ASE rwy, then look at the ARP and you tell me what the slope is?

It just happens to be 2%.

 

[Gumby]

It just happens to be 2%.

Hey HMR! Howz dat 50 machine doing? Been out West to the Islands yet?

 

[HMR]

Hey HMR! Howz dat 50 machine doing? Been out West to the Islands yet?

Hi Gumby! I have < 10hrs in the new machine and no trips scheduled for another 4+ weeks!!! The ProLine 21 is GREAT but I'm having trouble remembering what all the buttons do.

Make sure you call next time you're out my way. Fish tacos are on me!

 

[MauleSkinner]

At my last recurrent at Tucson we did our high hot takeoffs out of ASE. It was quite interesting. We don't normally go there so we don't have the SAAR program and don't have any intension of getting it. But V1 cuts at ASE with the Lindz departure are quite enlightening. And YES you can make it if you use the performance charts properly.

What airplane were you training in?

At one of my Falcon 10 recurrents a few years back, the examiner was adamant that the airplane could legally fly the departure in IMC...just check out the charts, and you'll find that you can get light enough to make the gradient. My response was "What's my alternate?"

He says "what do you mean?"

I said, "Well, at that weight, I have enough fuel to go to DBL, turn around, and shoot the approach back into ASE with IFR reserves...what's my alternate?"

I really shouldn't do that before I get into the sim for my checkride

Fly safe!

David

 

[rettofly]

What airplane were you training in?

At one of my Falcon 10 recurrents a few years back, the examiner was adamant that the airplane could legally fly the departure in IMC...just check out the charts, and you'll find that you can get light enough to make the gradient. My response was "What's my alternate?"

He says "what do you mean?"

I said, "Well, at that weight, I have enough fuel to go to DBL, turn around, and shoot the approach back into ASE with IFR reserves...what's my alternate?"

I really shouldn't do that before I get into the sim for my checkride

Fly safe!

David

The miss at ASE puts you on the approach for RIL.

 

[Rick1128]

What airplane were you training in?

At one of my Falcon 10 recurrents a few years back, the examiner was adamant that the airplane could legally fly the departure in IMC...just check out the charts, and you'll find that you can get light enough to make the gradient. My response was "What's my alternate?"

He says "what do you mean?"

I said, "Well, at that weight, I have enough fuel to go to DBL, turn around, and shoot the approach back into ASE with IFR reserves...what's my alternate?"

I really shouldn't do that before I get into the sim for my checkride

Fly safe!

David

It was the 35. And surprisingly the departure course was better the hotter it was. We did it at 30F and 65F at 15000#. So you have several different alternates available to you.

 

[YankeeEcho]

The airport manager finally blinked. Paperwork has been signed and returned to FAA for final approval.

Beginning this winter, Netjets Gulfstream aircraft (not that G-200 thingy) will begin using a P-RNAV/VNAV approach to ASE that roughly follows the path of the Roaring Fork river. Minimums of about 600 AGL and 1 1/4 mile for G-IV, 500 and 1 mile for G-V. Although coded in everybody's database, it is a proprietary approach and will only be assigned to QS aircraft. It will be approved for night approaches too.

One word: Yikes!

Had given up - thought it would never happen!

 

[rice]

The airport manager finally blinked. Paperwork has been signed and returned to FAA for final approval.

Just curious. Am I missing the sarcasm in your post? What does the airport manager have to do with the new approach for NJA???? No flame intended just trying to understand what you meant.

 

[YankeeEcho]

Just curious. Am I missing the sarcasm in your post? What does the airport manager have to do with the new approach for NJA???? No flame intended just trying to understand what you meant.

I don't believe this affects the NJA side - just the NJI side. NJI pilots have been training (in the sim) the special proprietary ASE approach for a long time now - one that was developed specifically for the GIV and GV at great expense to NJI. If implemented, it would have allowed NJI Gulfstreams to get in under conditions that would keep others out. It required the approval of the ASE airport manager and the FAA before being implemented. For some political reasons that I don't completely understand (something possibly originating from the experimental microwave? approach they (ASE) invested lots of money in some time back) the airport manager didn't want anyone else's approach to be approved. Rumor had it recently that it might never get approved - hence my surprise and the news posted here (hopefully accurate news!)