ASA/XJT MEC conflict

[COOPERVANE]

http://www.hulu.com/watch/278945/saturday-night-live-cobras-and-panthers

 

[rjacobs]

I am one XJT guy who will vote down anything in the new contract that is not an improvement. I will sit on our current contract 04 until the doors close on this place. I dont think I am being militant in my thinking, just that I am not willing to take ANY concessions just to get this merger done. I know there are A LOT of XJT guys with my way of thinking.

Didnt SKW inc say they were going to make 50 million a year from us once the merger was complete? SHOW ME THE MONEY.

 

[screamingpax]

XJT has as many lifers as ASA, everyone wants the company to be viable.

Are you kidding?? Have you seen the ASA seniority list?

 

[drinksonme]

Jerry will never let his baby (SKW) be tanted by the likes of XJT or ASA. Get past the one list ideas, and lets spend of barganing chips on more attainable things like QOL and Scheduling.
Another little birdy told me that SH came into the last negociation and told them that PBS WAS going to be in the next contract, dont even waste our time trying to get XJT line system. I know u XJT guys hate the thought of PBS, but the fact is MGMT will not sign a contract that doesnt include it.... Think he is tipping his hand a little by saying this... he is telling us how important PBS is to them, and thus we should use this to get some other things we want in the contract....

Hahahaha....admit it, you have no idea what is going on. Nevermind, you do not have to based on your SH reference. Maybe you should read the JNC updates instead of the 8 pages waste of money, glossy, kool aid, ASA/Inetek booklets. They are not even negotiating Scheduling yet. From what I understand, the management you love is stonewalling things because we are actually not accepting the turds they keep throwing out, basically because they have no idea of what they are doing. Fighting over DHD'ing and foreign flying by the company, because they do not want to guarantee seats or understand what foreign flying means is laughable. No wonder the union walked away. Fighting over that stuff is a waste of time so might as well go play golf. Heard it from many places, mainly not the union, that ASA management takes things one day at a time because that is all they are capable of and organized to do. Let me take the rose colored glasses off for you.

Reference the fact that losing the 700's was a surpise to them. Really, a surprise, because they were being utilized so well. MX cancellations, staffing issues, customer service problems, etc...all made Delta's problem. You can say cost all you want, but at the end of the day, if they had been used properly, Delta would have paid slightly more to not have to bring in another regional. We all know what a cluster a start up of operations can be. You could also look at this weeks meltdown in the UAX system because ASA did not understand, nor could it interface with, the flight assignment, number, and schedule changes made by United...really. THAT caught them off guard! Cancellations beyond belief and we looked bad, bad, bad to United. It was fun hearing the stories of 3 crews assigned to a flight that did not exist. How bout forcing Rainmaker on us without testing it, leading to thousands of pay claims because our contract was not understood. ASA had no idea, or was caught off guard, that we could trade below 75/hr min, or put in pay for DHD to/from training, or missed that our pay is on main cabin door open, or customs pay is not there, or that Rainmaker is not automatically adding Junior Man pay...and this just scratches the surface. Do not even get me started on what they think proper staffing is either. Face it, ASA was not prepared to "buy us" as you say. SKYW bought us and dropped us in the lap of your guys, which main concern was underbidding GoJet types. All of this to avoid SLI and a possible union at SKYW airlines.

I am really glad to know that the majority of ASA folks are not like you. You really live in clouds and wear blinders because you are so glad to have a job. If you think XJT pilots will sign a contract just because ASA says so, you are nuts. All the low blows you want to throw will not change that. Get this through your head, XJT pilots will not sign a contract out of fear, threats, or force. If you really are worried, re-think your life decisions, polish resume, and get started with interview prep courses. I could care less about what you think is reasonable or not. I, and the majority of the XJT pilots are not here to make managements job easier, or secure your future.

 

[Nevets]

A little birdie told me the joint ASA/XJT meeting in ATL didn't go so well...I'll let everyone take a guess on which MEC is being reasonable. I understand one MEC member was kicked out of the meeting and 1 MEC walked out.

No MEC member can be kicked out of an MEC meeting. Maybe you meant that an MEC member walked out on his/her own in disgust?

Anyways, my guess is that there is one group who wont even LOOK at line bidding while the other one is open to PBS. Who do you think is the unreasonable group there? Keep in mind, that the XJT pilot group will probably ratify any TA that is concessionary in nature. I think the XJT MEC understands that and the ASA MEC must also understand that if they want to move forward in these negotiations.

 

[rjacobs]

Keep in mind, that the XJT pilot group will probably ratify any TA that is concessionary in nature. I think the XJT MEC understands that and the ASA MEC must also understand that if they want to move forward in these negotiations.

I hope you meant WONT ratify any TA that is concessionary in nature. I havent flown with a guy yet that is willing to give one cent to the company or budge an inch.

 

[Nevets]

I hope you meant WONT ratify any TA that is concessionary in nature. I havent flown with a guy yet that is willing to give one cent to the company or budge an inch.

Oops! Ya, I meant that they probably WONT ratify any concessionary TA. Sorry.

 

[rjacobs]

Oops! Ya, I meant that they probably WONT ratify any concessionary TA. Sorry.

Dont you be going and giving those ASA guys any ideas now.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No MEC member can be kicked out of an MEC meeting. Maybe you meant that an MEC member walked out on his/her own in disgust?

This was a joint MEC meeting. He couldn't be kicked out of an ASA MEC meeting, but this is two seperate MECs meeting together. He was kicked out. Then one MEC walked out later. There are other not so nice attacks coming from your MEC. Many of us aren't going to accept the behavior of your MEC.

Anyways, my guess is that there is one group who wont even LOOK at line bidding while the other one is open to PBS. Who do you think is the unreasonable group there? Keep in mind, that the XJT pilot group will probably ratify any TA that is concessionary in nature. I think the XJT MEC understands that and the ASA MEC must also understand that if they want to move forward in these negotiations.

Nevets, we are two seperate MECs at this time. There are 3 things you have to understand about PBS at ASA.

1. Our pilots overwhelmingly want PBS. I understand that your pilots don't want it. Our MEC is supposed to do what we want, and they are.

2. ASA paid a bunch of money for this PBS system. They have a lot of money invested in it. They aren't going to give up something they invested a lot of money in.

3. PBS is the industry standard whether you like it or not. Almost everyone has it now. The NMB arbitrators and mediators rely heavily on industry standard. We negotiated the best PBS system in the airline industry. Better than Delta and Continental. If you give it up now, it will most likely come back at a later date, only it won't be as good.

I think the best thing at this point is if we just stay seperate. I hate to say it, but the ASA pilots have more in common with the Skywest pilots than they do with the XJT pilots.

 

[pkunzip66]

This was a joint MEC meeting. He couldn't be kicked out of an ASA MEC meeting, but this is two seperate MECs meeting together. He was kicked out. Then one MEC walked out later. There are other not so nice attacks coming from your MEC. Many of us aren't going to accept the behavior of your MEC.



Nevets, we are two seperate MECs at this time. There are 3 things you have to understand about PBS at ASA.

1. Our pilots overwhelmingly want PBS. I understand that your pilots don't want it. Our MEC is supposed to do what we want, and they are.

2. ASA paid a bunch of money for this PBS system. They have a lot of money invested in it. They aren't going to give up something they invested a lot of money in.

3. PBS is the industry standard whether you like it or not. Almost everyone has it now. The NMB arbitrators and mediators rely heavily on industry standard. We negotiated the best PBS system in the airline industry. Better than Delta and Continental. If you give it up now, it will most likely come back at a later date, only it won't be as good.

I think the best thing at this point is if we just stay seperate. I hate to say it, but the ASA pilots have more in common with the Skywest pilots than they do with the XJT pilots.

Alright, I have been on both sides of the fence now and I will tell you about PBS. I think it is super easy once you put in the preferences cause you can just import your last bid or have it as a default and not think about it. The problems I have with PBS is that I don't trust it. I look at my preferences and compare to guys more junior to me and they get better trips that I wanted. Also, the fact that the pilots/ALPA needs to be in control. SH and team have such a hard on to not work with anything that they will screw everything up. Why not just allow the ALPA group one month to run it and make us happy and see how it works out. 6+ months of this crap and they still can't get a good solution.

PBS definitely screws the junior guys cause the senior guy wanted it to be best for them, just like it has always been with ASA from what I hear and noticed.

ASA guys get so hell bent on their wonderful vacation low crap when in reality I could have done the same thing on a month to month basis at XJT without it being a vacation month. The thing I see from the ASA guys is that they will not even look at XJT's line bidding cause it is named "line bidding" and that theirs (ASA) was such crap.

And another addition, the only side that wants PBS is the ASA pilots and not ASA's management. Management constantly complains on how much it is costing and that they made a mistake. But then again they make a bunch of mistakes lately and just blame the pilot group for it.

Open your mind up JoeMerchant and actually look into XJT's style of bidding. You may have looked at it but I truly don't think you really have a good grasp on how much different it is then what ASA had in the past or any other line bidding out there.

As for the standard that everybody has PBS and we should get it too....if everybody is going to jump off the bridge, should you too?!

 

[princeton]

I hate to say it, but the ASA pilots have more in common with the Skywest pilots than they do with the XJT pilots.

Ha ha. You can say that again. If you are a good example then you might as well not have a union.

I can't believe you're taking "industry standard" as a basis for anything. Please tell me you are ASA management, here to "lower expectations".

 

[blesko]

Oops! Ya, I meant that they probably WONT ratify any concessionary TA. Sorry.

And neither will this ASA pilot, who's already voted NO on the last 2 items, our last contract and PBS. Concessionary doesn't always mean sacrificing pay. There's quite a bit that we can improve as a pilot group that wont cost the company a dime, and that should be a given, already. We (the regional industry) wont make mainline money for flying RJ's...if you think we are, you're high. I'm as much a management guy as I am a labor guy. I want a job, particularly at a mainline carrier, so whats good for us is bad for mainline, and vice versa. Management SHOULD make the decisions that allow us to make money for the airline WHILE balancing the employee quality of life. It works in the private sector at places like Amazon and even to a degree at Southwest.

"It doesnt matter how we got here." That quote is probably more true than we care to admit. The fact is we are and not a lot we can do about it, unless one of us sits in the puzzle palace with a stick and hits management for every bad decision they make. We fly RJ's, maybe at a profit, maybe at a loss, whatever. The regional model has changed. It's not an "up and out" philosophy anymore. SH came into recurrent years ago and said "if you're here more than 6 years you're costing too much money." That model MUST change. This place (insert regional here) COULD be a good place to be if we make it that way. We have the union because there is such a mistrust between management and labor. Until that gets changed, which won't happen, we make the best of it. We should secure a better contract which fixes things that we have issues with. It doesn't have to be monetarily.

If you make reserve attractive, very senior pilots might bid it which will reduce cost....if you allow reserve to be used the way it was intended..for sick calls only. If you allow flex time, people can take the first round trip or any round trip for personal needs with 10-12 hours advanced notice without ANY occurrance and get paid. That will cut down sick calls. In theory, reserves should NEVER fly. Then we can tackle the hourly pay issue.

If this contract doesnt improve the QOL of this place in general, including for reserves and senior pilots and maintain profitability, shut this place down.

 

[nerjdriver]

I think many r starring to regret that WE BOUGHT U!
Should have just let XJT run it's course (Independence Air) & picked up the peaces after the implosion.
Now u guys r going to screw it up for all of us. Think u guys easily forget the path u were on before WE BOUGHT U! U should remember that.

I really wish that SkyWest inc hadn't bought us. ASA didn't but anybody bucko, Inc did.

Get your facts right

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Also, the fact that the pilots/ALPA needs to be in control. SH and team have such a hard on to not work with anything that they will screw everything up. Why not just allow the ALPA group one month to run it and make us happy and see how it works out. 6+ months of this crap and they still can't get a good solution.

Have you actually spoken to the ALPA guys who build the ALPA solutions? You clearly haven't. The company has used the ALPA solution several times, and it isn't any better. The schedules from Delta plus the work rules of the contract equal a crappy schedule.

Give Ken Armstrong a call. It might help you to understand a little.

 

[COOPERVANE]

PBS Sucks

 

[enuffalready]

Have you actually spoken to the ALPA guys who build the ALPA solutions? You clearly haven't. The company has used the ALPA solution several times, and it isn't any better. The schedules from Delta plus the work rules of the contract equal a crappy schedule.

Give Ken Armstrong a call. It might help you to understand a little.

100% agree. I have spoken with Ken multiple times and as mentioned before, sat with Alpa guys for multiple bids... even as recent as last month.... to make sure i was doing it right... and i love pbs. My schedule is the best it has ever been and have NO desire to ever go back to line bidding.

 

[wms]

PBS is history. They can try for PBS in arbitration, but that will result in 20% D-0 and they know it, and the pilot groups remember how effective the fall of 2007 was. And don't believe for a second the company doesn't like PBS. They have always used reverse psychology as their number one negotiating tool. They just don't like the vacation options and are willing to gamble PBS as a whole to change the vacation rules.

ASA PBS is a good system, XE line-bidding is excellent, I'd be happy with either. The problem is the company.

XE PILOTS MUST UNDERSTAND IT'S NOT A MATTER OF MERELY KEEPING LINE-BIDDING, BUT NOT LETTING THE COMPANY SCREW WITH IT.

Also, not letting the CNC (primarily ASA) sell out the pilot group by letting the company have loose language.

 

[veneratio]

PBS is history. They can try for PBS in arbitration, but that will result in 20% D-0 and they know it, and the pilot groups remember how effective the fall of 2007 was. And don't believe for a second the company doesn't like PBS. They have always used reverse psychology as their number one negotiating tool. They just don't like the vacation options and are willing to gamble PBS as a whole to change the vacation rules.

ASA PBS is a good system, XE line-bidding is excellent, I'd be happy with either. The problem is the company.

XE PILOTS MUST UNDERSTAND IT'S NOT A MATTER OF MERELY KEEPING LINE-BIDDING, BUT NOT LETTING THE COMPANY SCREW WITH IT.

Also, not letting the CNC (primarily ASA) sell out the pilot group by letting the company have loose language.

When do ASA pilots know their final schedule for the following month using PBS?

 

[ohplease!]

When do ASA pilots know their final schedule for the following month using PBS?

21st @5

Sucks!

 

[veneratio]

21st @5

Sucks!

Yep, XJT pilots have their schedule on about the 9th with small adjustments for transition conflicts (company can only adjust first 6 days of the month) or training by the 14th. Definitely good for planning things for the next month.

On the 14th, when the first trading window opens, you can drop your line to 60 hours and maximize your days off. So if you are a Junior line holder with only 12 days off and 85 hours of credit with all ********************ty 4 days, you can have 15 to 17 days off, with 85 hours of credit, and more commutable trips.