ASA talks update?

[atrdriver]

It's really not about ASA, it's about labor as a whole, but if you want to talk ASA, do you think you'd be more or less likely to get a NMB release under Kerry vs. Bush?

The NMB know who they work for. 2 out of 3 members were appointed by Bush. 'nuff said.

How many got released under Clinton? How many have been beleased under Bush?

 

[ohplease!]

Your union dues didn't support Kerry. That would be illegal and even ALPA isn't THAT stupid.

The money came from the PAC... and was freely donated by PAC supporters for that specific purpose.

According to DW at the dinner, only 1% of ASA pilots "back the PAC", so I don't think you have anything to worry about.

and you're smoking crack if you think ALPA only donated money "donated" by PAC supporters.

 

[Palerider957]

Perfect, just the type of response I was looking for. Pale, lets take your line of thinking to it's extreme. I agree, companies are in business to make money. So lets say all businesses follow your advice and lower worker wages to improve the bottom line (just like most airlines are doing). Now the workers (that's you and me, by the way) have less money to spend, so we buy less. If we buy less, the businesses lose, too, and a vicious cycle develops.

You said that our elected officials aren't there to line my pockets, with that I agree. But our elected officials ARE there to protect the people of this country, not the businesses that have bought them off with big money lobbyists.

Bush is just obeying the money, look at the recent proposed sale of the ports. Why would he be so adamant about something most people are so strongly against if it weren't for the big money behind the deal.

It's finally coming out that the rich keep getting richer and the poor (that's you and me, also) keep getting poorer (see today's USA Today business section) and it's not because the rich work that much harder. It's because they've learned to manipulate the system and that's what we elect our officials to prevent.

I love it when people bash on Clinton about how bad a president and what a slimeball he was. Here's one to ponder, when were you better off? I don't know many who would say they're better off now than they were under Clinton. And don’t even try to blame it all on 9/11, that's Bush's excuse for EVERYTHING, and while it has and still does affect us, Bushootes can't keep using it as the cause of all our woes. Something else, if Clinton is such a slimeball, why has Bush's own dad become so close with him that even Bush was quoted as saying he feels like he has a brother?

I'll tell you what, you just keep thinking that Bush is looking out for you while he tries to allow foreign companies to have a controlling interest in U.S. airlines. You might as well bury your head in the sand a little deeper.

My friend, your thinking is flawed. If wages come down (they will continue to do so across the entire labor sprectrum) companies do reap more profits, and are able to invest and grow (providing more jobs). No one likes to watch CEO's get HUGE bonusses while the little guy is being laid off and having his wages cut--but it's a simple supply/demand curve.

Labor contracts seek to artificially escalate wages against market forces--don't ge me wrong, I CERTAINLY believe pilot wages should be higher, but we all know the current climate. Look at the UAW workers who have had absurd wages and benefits for decades (entry level is much higher than an RJ Capt.)

I support pilots in their efforts to improve their lot, if ASA strikes I'll be down there handing out coffee and dounts to the picketers. I just don't think "labor" in general has even a basic grasp of business and economics.

Incidentally, I don't think W cares about ASA, or pilots. I don't think either party cares what your W-2 says, or rest requirements, QOL, etc. Those are things you have to fight for on your own.

Lastly, read the definition of the word "proleariat--The class of wage earners who must earn their living by selling labor, the propertyless class..." This naged me enough to finally leave ASA when I realized that's all I would every be in this job.

I left the industry entirely and am now doing commerical real estate. My QOL, $$, and health have all quadrupled. Yes, the rich are getting richer and you have to ask yourself which side of the fence do you want to be on. Make no mistake, this is a CHOICE.

I wish you luck and good fortune.

 

[ohplease!]

My friend, your thinking is flawed. If wages come down (they will continue to do so across the entire labor sprectrum) companies do reap more profits, and are able to invest and grow (providing more jobs). No one likes to watch CEO's get HUGE bonusses while the little guy is being laid off and having his wages cut--but it's a simple supply/demand curve.

Labor contracts seek to artificially escalate wages against market forces--don't ge me wrong, I CERTAINLY believe pilot wages should be higher, but we all know the current climate. Look at the UAW workers who have had absurd wages and benefits for decades (entry level is much higher than an RJ Capt.)

I support pilots in their efforts to improve their lot, if ASA strikes I'll be down there handing out coffee and dounts to the picketers. I just don't think "labor" in general has even a basic grasp of business and economics.

Incidentally, I don't think W cares about ASA, or pilots. I don't think either party cares what your W-2 says, or rest requirements, QOL, etc. Those are things you have to fight for on your own.

Lastly, read the definition of the word "proleariat--The class of wage earners who must earn their living by selling labor, the propertyless class..." This naged me enough to finally leave ASA when I realized that's all I would every be in this job.

I left the industry entirely and am now doing commerical real estate. My QOL, $$, and health have all quadrupled. Yes, the rich are getting richer and you have to ask yourself which side of the fence do you want to be on. Make no mistake, this is a CHOICE.

I wish you luck and good fortune.

That is the most lucid thought I've seen you post here. I didn't know you had it in you. By the way, I agree but, I choose to stay here.

 

[Tim47SIP]

RFP and Competition

So you guys are telling me that Skywest separates their profits into SKW profits, and ASA profits? I dont know about that, but I suppose its possible. I guess thats another way to whipsaw. Tell the OO boys that 'all the profits came from ASA' .

Well, it may be that most of us on this board have no clue how competition in the industry works in relation to profits. We all think that if the company is profitable, then there is more money for us to split up; hence more pay. In order to get the initial contract, you have to provide an RFP. That RFP will be based on a CASM, lets say 8.5 cents. The company will bid based on their current cost plus a small profit. The contract is let with milestones or goals to accomplish with rewards associated in those areas. These payments when goals are met are then put into profit sharing accounts to be paid to the employees. If they are not met, then the company still has the basic contract, but not the additional funds. If we were paid up front for these funds, the company would be in the red at this time.

If on the otherhand we just went for extra pay and additional contract costs up front, our CASM would be 10.2 for instance. Now when the RFP is submitted, we most certainly can not compete if there is another carrier bidding an 8.7 CASM. This of course is not conducive to current ALPA tactics.

What we have to do is realize how the competition is bid against, how the management bonuses are played in, how the profit sharing affects our bottom line, and determine what the benefits of additional airframes would give to the pilot group. We then have to come up with an even point to stay competitive and still remain profitable.

The problem here is trusting management to divvy out the money that the working groups worked hard to get. There are ways to ensure that and I think that Skywest Management does that. Maybe we need to educate our pilot group a little more on how the process works so that most of us don't live in a constant conspiracy theory.

Personally, it looks to me that in the last couple negotiating meetings that quite a bit has been accomplished. The last two updates show significant completion in many areas. I think we may be on the down hill portion. When they stated that they have reached some criteria for a commuter clause with a little more tweaking to go, I knew that someone has talked with our management.

OK, I'm finished :smash:

 

[Palerider957]

That is the most lucid thought I've seen you post here. I didn't know you had it in you. By the way, I agree but, I choose to stay here.

My biggest beefs with ASA have been the outright abuse and violation of the labor contract. If you give your word, you should keep it.

I do think pilots should be paid more, and have the right to push for higher wages. Management has the responsibility to keep cost in check, who wins is largely determined by the market, and skill of negotiators.

Almost FOUR years of negotiation is absurd, by anyones reasoning. The fundamental lack of honor in ASA's management is my biggest complaint.

 

[ohplease!]

My biggest beefs with ASA have been the outright abuse and violation of the labor contract. If you give your word, you should keep it.

I do think pilots should be paid more, and have the right to push for higher wages. Management has the responsibility to keep cost in check, who wins is largely determined by the market, and skill of negotiators.

Almost FOUR years of negotiation is absurd, by anyones reasoning. The fundamental lack of honor in ASA's management is my biggest complaint.

Again, I couldn't agree more! Spot on! ASA mgmt. has been changing since SKYW took over. Better things are coming.

 

[ASACRJFlyer]

Let the fun continue...

My friend, your thinking is flawed. If wages come down (they will continue to do so across the entire labor sprectrum) companies do reap more profits, and are able to invest and grow (providing more jobs).

Sorry friend, but I’m afraid it’s your thinking that’s flawed. The idea you espoused is otherwise known as trickle down economics and it doesn’t work. When you give the corporations more money, yes , they invest some of it in the company but this is where human nature and greed kick in and they also find ways to stash it away for themselves in tax protected accounts outside of the company (and country). If wages increase, what does the average worker (again, you and me) do with an increase in pay? We spend it and put it back into the economy, buying everything from cars to clothes to electronics, all of which boost the economy.

No one likes to watch CEO's get HUGE bonusses while the little guy is being laid off and having his wages cut--but it's a simple supply/demand curve.

No, that's not a simple supply/demand curve, that's greed, plain and simple.

Labor contracts seek to artificially escalate wages against market forces--don't ge me wrong, I CERTAINLY believe pilot wages should be higher, but we all know the current climate. Look at the UAW workers who have had absurd wages and benefits for decades (entry level is much higher than an RJ Capt.)

I support pilots in their efforts to improve their lot, if ASA strikes I'll be down there handing out coffee and dounts to the picketers. I just don't think "labor" in general has even a basic grasp of business and economics.

I can’t stand it when conservatives try to teach an economics lesson as if their line of thinking is the only right way. I’ve got news for you, a free market without some government restraint is a BAD thing. Greed WILL kick in and the lower and middle classes will get screwed, and if you look around it’s already happening. Just look at Delta, where pilots who have been with the company for decades are being asked to take huge pay cuts while management that has been there less than 5 years are being given severance packages by a company that can’t afford to pay it’s employees.

I left the industry entirely and am now doing commerical real estate. My QOL, $$, and health have all quadrupled. Yes, the rich are getting richer and you have to ask yourself which side of the fence do you want to be on. Make no mistake, this is a CHOICE.

I admire you for doing what you feel like you had to do by leaving this profession to find a better life. I can’t say I haven’t thought about real estate myself. But one key thing you said I find very sad, and I think it typifies what is going wrong with this country. You said, “Yes, the rich are getting richer and you have to ask yourself which side of the fence do you want to be on. Make no mistake, this is a CHOICE.”

Basically what you’re saying is I got mine, screw everyone else. Last time I checked that wasn’t what this country was all about. Unfortunately, that seems to be the line of thinking that more and more in this country are taking.

 

[rjcap]

Basically what you’re saying is I got mine, screw everyone else. Last time I checked that wasn’t what this country was all about. Unfortunately, that seems to be the line of thinking that more and more in this country are taking.

No, thats not what he said. He made a choice to not let his QOL and income be determined by the 51% of the weakest individuals in the pilot group who will undoubtedly rationalize a paycut and vote it in.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Basically what you’re saying is I got mine, screw everyone else. Last time I checked that wasn’t what this country was all about. Unfortunately, that seems to be the line of thinking that more and more in this country are taking.


No, that is not what he is saying. What he is implying is if you want to get somewhere in this country, all you have to do is get off your lazy butt and do something about it. It is not the Governments responsibility to reward all of the lazy people out there that continuously blame every one but themselves for their personal wealth and QOL. Most of us in this industry worked to get what we have on our own. No one paid for my college and no one is forcing the poor Americans not to go to college or learn a skill that pays more. Handouts are not the answer to societies problems!

 

[shamrock]

It is not the Governments responsibility to reward all of the lazy people out there that continuously blame every one but themselves for their personal wealth and QOL.....Handouts are not the answer to societies problems!

I think this should be put on a billboard overlooking Atlanta (Fulton County) City Hall. Better yet, save it for the next Democratic National Convention.

Sorry for the hijack. Now back to you regularly scheduled bickering.

 

[ASACRJFlyer]

Misunderstood...

I apologize if you took my remarks to mean that we aren't all responsible for our own quality of life. I worked my way through college and did my time in the military as well. All I'm saying is that it seems like this country is killing it's lower and middle class for the benefit of the top 10%, (which is great if you happen to be in that percentage).

I don't want to run the company, I don't care about getting filthy rich and I sure as he11 don't want a handout. I'm just happy to bust my a$$ while I'm at work and just hate to see the playing field tilted against people who earn a wage.

I think we're all on the same team, we just differ in who we feel would make for the best leadership.

 

[N2264J]

How many got released under Clinton? How many have been beleased under Bush?

Clinton = American and Comair

Bush = Mesaba

Did I miss anyone?

 

[Palerider957]

I apologize if you took my remarks to mean that we aren't all responsible for our own quality of life. I worked my way through college and did my time in the military as well. All I'm saying is that it seems like this country is killing it's lower and middle class for the benefit of the top 10%, (which is great if you happen to be in that percentage).

I don't want to run the company, I don't care about getting filthy rich and I sure as he11 don't want a handout. I'm just happy to bust my a$$ while I'm at work and just hate to see the playing field tilted against people who earn a wage.

I think we're all on the same team, we just differ in who we feel would make for the best leadership.

Agreed. You and I have a similar background, but some different goals.

What you are talking about is "control." Who has control over your financial future and security. Many think it's a companies responsibility (pension plans, 401K), or the Govts' (Social Security, SSI, welfare). As a result most Americans simply go to work hoping that their employer, or the Government will take care of them later in life---this is a dangerous stragegy. We have all seen companies reneg on their contracts, and Govt. funding for Soc. Sec. will be in SERIOUS trouble in the years to come as the bulk of the baby boomers deplete the $$. Potentially the demographic at the tail end of the boomers and immediately after will have to deplete their 401K's to survive (having a huge downward effect on the stock market as capital flows away from it), the remaining people will find themselves with majorly devalued 401K's as their only source of retirment.....not pretty.

I simply advoacate taking control of your own financial life. You can still fly for ASA, but keep working to build a side business that will insulate you from the turbulent airline industry. If most pilots did this, you wouldn't have the scared school girls who will undercut you efforts to improve the contract. They do this because they have no "control" over their own economic livelihood--they rely on the company entirely. If each (or most pilots) did this you would find a lot more unity and less fear in confronting management.

If you do seek to control your own fininacial destiny, you will be MUCH LESS STRESSED at ASA, trust me. When you reach the point you can leave with financial security, it will keep a smile on your face to know you can tell Crew Scheduling to go FU*K themselves at anytime.....whether or not you do it is up to you.....IMHO.

 

[FDJ2]

Clinton = American and Comair

Bush = Mesaba

Did I miss anyone?

NWA comes to mind. Also AA technically got released, although a PEB soon followed giving both sides more time to negotiate, but by then the APA had demonstrated their willingness to strike and all outstanding issues were soon settled before the PEB time limit ran out.

 

[rjcap]

ASA 70 Seat Cost
Just found out where all this 70 seat cost bullsht is coming from. Brian Labrq, the liar, has created a 70 seat operating number that includes the 103 instructors that are paid based on the 70 seat rate. These instructors are paid due to their seniority whether or not they actually instruct on this aircraft. This training cost is normally included in the training department which is a management function and not a line/revenue operation.

Basically, mgmt is operating two sets of books. The accurate set excludes from line operations the training costs incurred by the training dept.

The bogus set has been generated to show an inflated 70 seat cost due too the 103 or so Instructor pilots that are paid 70 seat rates even though they are not part of line operations. They are part of mgmt/training department expenses which are not part of the revenue generation of the company.

Considering we have 30 or so 70 seaters on line operations, an additional 103 Captains added to the expense significantly skews the operating cost of the 70 seat aircraft. If you would correctly remove these 103 instructors from the line operations expenses you would have a dramatically lower line operation cost on the 700.

Shame on you Brian. You need to be fired immediately.

 

[Tim47SIP]

What?

OK, someone help me out here. I see where RJCap is going with this, and he has a point with the actual cost. What I don't get is that I was under the impression that ALL costs associated with running the company, from Brians pay, to flushing the toilet and paying the water bill are factored in to the average CASM for a company. I understand that the IP's are inflating the actual costs to run the 70's, but taking them out will still skew the numbers because those IP's still have to be paid. It is one pot of money, and it is all divvied (sp?) out from the same pot.

Where am I going wrong here?? Thanks!

 

[rjcap]

OK, someone help me out here. I see where RJCap is going with this, and he has a point with the actual cost. What I don't get is that I was under the impression that ALL costs associated with running the company, from Brians pay, to flushing the toilet and paying the water bill are factored in to the average CASM for a company. I understand that the IP's are inflating the actual costs to run the 70's, but taking them out will still skew the numbers because those IP's still have to be paid. It is one pot of money, and it is all divvied (sp?) out from the same pot.

Where am I going wrong here?? Thanks!

The issue here is how the company is allocating its costs to determine a "competitive number" or an individual CASM for that airframe. Anybody familiar with the 700 knows that the company loves it because you get 40% more revenue for a very little increase in operation cost relative to the 200. If you think about this you would prefer a fleet of 700's over 200's assuming you had a decent yield on those specific routes. For a very small increase in operating expense on the 700 you get 20 more seats.

BL is trying to tell us that our "competitve number" on the 700 is the highest in the industry soley because of pilot pay. Do the math and you can determine for yourself that this doesn't really make sense.

One other issue. These are the people we should trust to calculate our profit sharing ???????????????????????????????

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Heres one thing to piss ya all off...... SKYW profits rose sharply after the purchase of ASA, due to ASA's contribution to the bottom line of SKYW. Who gets profit sharing checks based on quarterly profits? SKYW pilots do! So, the fine pilots at SKYW got larger checks, based on the hard work of ASA pilots, who get nothing! Remember that the next time they ask you for a paycut.

Hate to pop the bubble in your rant but you might want to talk to some SKYW pilots and ask them if the margin upon which bonus checks are based has gone up or down. You also might want to investigate whether the bonuses are based on SKYW profit margin or the margin of the holding company (SKYW Inc.) It's not as simple as you might think.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

Hate to pop the bubble in your rant but you might want to talk to some SKYW pilots and ask them if the margin upon which bonus checks are based has gone up or down. You also might want to investigate whether the bonuses are based on SKYW profit margin or the margin of the holding company (SKYW Inc.) It's not as simple as you might think.

Thanks for setting the record straight Dave. Sadly, most Americans and most pilots, don't understand the difference between things like revenue, net profit, and most importantly profit margin. I know ASA's profit margin has been declining over the years. Off the top of my head, it is only about half of what it was in 1998. "Record profits" mean nothing if your profit margin is declining.

How is the bonus calculated? Is it based on on SKYW Inc., or SKYW? Thanks for the info.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

According to the emails I'm getting from the MEC, progress is being made. Sounds like the commuter clause is almost done.

1. CNC Update from Orlando, Florida

Pilot contract negotiations continued Thursday in Orlando. Our CNC members submitted a package counter proposal for Sections 14 - Sick Leave, 7 - Vacation, 8 - Deadhead and 5 - Traveling Expenses.

The two sides came to tentative agreement (T/A) on Section 11 - Training. More work was done in Section 26 - General, in which ALPA and management came closer to a workable commute policy. You can read the attached CNC Session Briefing for a more detailed explanation of the day's events.

Negotiations will continue Friday.

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

They blame the pilots alone for cost issues, when their own mismanagement is the biggest expense:

Last night, we waited 30 minutes to park in ATL after a flight from the Northeast.

The fuel cost alone (sitting idle, waiting to park, repositioning twice to new gates) accounts for more money than the flight crew got paid to fly the entire leg. And that doesn't even begin to address the pissed off passengers, missed connections, etc.

 

[av8er2]

Get a clue mgt. You waist soooo much money on mismanagement it is stupid.

All I have to say is if we get a so so contract with not much of a raise it will cost ASA many millions from unhappy pilots over the next few years. Many pilots will also be leaving like crazy, like me.

If I can't live a reasonable lifestyle on this pay I am out. My job as a pilot requires too much skill and safety to not get paid for it.

I am getting the resume ready because corporate pilots with my time are making at least $80000 to $100000 working a lot less. Sure it is not easy to find these jobs but if I work hard I will some day.

It is easy to find a job when you have one, no pressure.

Get a clue the pilots are a huge part of cost savings and safety. Happy pilots will achieve both of these.

 

[Grassstrippilot]

Not just a commuter clause, but a GOOD commuter clause.

If I don't see 100% retro pay (75 hr guarantee or better per month that we have been in negotiations) plus a commuter clause I will not sign!!

We should be hoping for not just any commuter clause, but good one. I just read the update from Friday and I have to say, I didn't like what I read. The fact that there is even discussion about how many times a pilot can use the commuter clause is a sure sign that they are not talking about a GOOD commuter clause.

We had a good one at ACA, two flights to get you to work before your show time (company had to be able to check loads on the flight. Better wording would have allowed for any validated jumpseat request form from any airline, but it still worked well), and you could use it an unlimited number of times. You just loose pay for portions of the trip you missed. Sure took all the stress out of commuting, which there will be plenty of if/when our pass benefits are downgraded.

Also, it needs to have wording in it that makes it clear that it can be used from anywhere, not just the city that is on record with the company. In other words, need to get back to work from vacation in Maui, no problem, your covered by the commuter clause. Have a pesky 3 day trip during the week between Christmas and New Years and you're spending the holidays with family out of town? No problem, you're covered by the commuter clause.

Point being, a good commuter clause won't have restrictions on the number of times it is used (like Mesa's) or from where it can be used. I sure hope that this is what the NC has in mind.

 

[twott driver]

When are they going to realise that the pilots are directly responsible for the amount of gas burned........... their LARGEST operating expense!????

Quible about $10 an hour in pilot wages? We can burn that in the blink of an eye, and lots more besides!

Employees who feel they are being justly treated and receiving acceptable remuneration are happy employees. These people tend to go out of their way to run a good operation and so make the company money.

P!ss them off and it's going to cost you $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Managements choice I guess.......

 

[amcnd]

SkyWest will brake the cost down to the electric bill for the external power when they figure out the cost of flying the 700! I'm sure on the SkyWest side they factor in all the SkyWest instructors that get payed the same as the 200.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Thanks for setting the record straight Dave. Sadly, most Americans and most pilots, don't understand the difference between things like revenue, net profit, and most importantly profit margin. I know ASA's profit margin has been declining over the years. Off the top of my head, it is only about half of what it was in 1998. "Record profits" mean nothing if your profit margin is declining.

As a business owner I know those terms all too well.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

So you guys are telling me that Skywest separates their profits into SKW profits, and ASA profits? I dont know about that, but I suppose its possible. I guess thats another way to whipsaw. Tell the OO boys that 'all the profits came from ASA' .

I am amazed, you came up with this all by yourself? You may be too dumb to even fly an RJ! Whipsaw? you have gotten a jumpstart, even before managment has started. Whatever you do, you would be best served by remembering, SKYW has a pathological, instutional hate for organized labor, and has been successful at keeping organized labor off of the property for more than 30 years. I think that, as we key these thoughts they have plans for you and you probably will not like those plans. Thats right while you were still swimming around in your dad's sack, SKYW mgmt was running an airline and keeping their company "free of the scourge of organized labor". That being said I am an ALPA supporter and believer, it ain't perfect but it is the only viable choice available. Be very, very careful this is not a what you see is what you get type of circumstance, smoke and mirrors are S.O.P.
alot of SKYW junior and probably more than a few senior pilots were decieved by the 50-99 razzledazzle. You think you are better/smarter? the only thing you got going for you is ALPA, what volunteer position do you hold within your chapter...? Thought so, just barking at the moon, good luck you are gonna need it.
PBR

 

[crjskipper]

I was thinking things were going well with negotiations last week - even the MEC updates point to a lot of movement since the new year. Supposedly the union has asked the mediator to stop talking - that could push us into getting parked or released. This is not good for anyone. If progress is finally being made, and our negotiators confirmed that themselves - good improvements were mentioned to section 13 - why stop?


And for the naive fools who think jobs are easy to comeby - think again. There are alot of jobs to comeby in Atlanta - but they are not quick to hire pilots and dont pay what most think - trust me. Captains at ASA make at least 60 - 100 a year. There are a lot of jobs in the 40 - 60 range, but not alot above that for people with our experience.


I want to see improvements in scheduling and wont stand for a pay cut - but it sounds like the former is happening and the later wont happen. Why grind negotiations to a halt when we have been complaining about it taking too long?

 

[atrdriver]

Clinton = American and Comair

Bush = Mesaba

Did I miss anyone?

Now, which ones were stopped from a strike by Clinton, and which ones were stopped from a strike by Bush.