ASA talks update?

[79%N1]

I am amazed, you came up with this all by yourself? You may be too dumb to even fly an RJ! Whipsaw? you have gotten a jumpstart, even before managment has started. Whatever you do, you would be best served by remembering, SKYW has a pathological, instutional hate for organized labor, and has been successful at keeping organized labor off of the property for more than 30 years. I think that, as we key these thoughts they have plans for you and you probably will not like those plans. Thats right while you were still swimming around in your dad's sack, SKYW mgmt was running an airline and keeping their company "free of the scourge of organized labor". That being said I am an ALPA supporter and believer, it ain't perfect but it is the only viable choice available. Be very, very careful this is not a what you see is what you get type of circumstance, smoke and mirrors are S.O.P.
alot of SKYW junior and probably more than a few senior pilots were decieved by the 50-99 razzledazzle. You think you are better/smarter? the only thing you got going for you is ALPA, what volunteer position do you hold within your chapter...? Thought so, just barking at the moon, good luck you are gonna need it.
PBR

WOW!!!! I get that venomous response, and the name calling because I basically was saying I stand corrected, to my original post regarding profits. My later point being, if the profits indeed are separated, knowing management they could hold this over the SKYW pilots someday in the future. Excuuuuuuuuse Me!!!!

BTW, I'm really not stupid at all. Just ask my Mom.

 

[601Pilot]

I was thinking things were going well with negotiations last week - even the MEC updates point to a lot of movement since the new year. Supposedly the union has asked the mediator to stop talking - that could push us into getting parked or released. This is not good for anyone. If progress is finally being made, and our negotiators confirmed that themselves - good improvements were mentioned to section 13 - why stop?


And for the naive fools who think jobs are easy to comeby - think again. There are alot of jobs to comeby in Atlanta - but they are not quick to hire pilots and dont pay what most think - trust me. Captains at ASA make at least 60 - 100 a year. There are a lot of jobs in the 40 - 60 range, but not alot above that for people with our experience.


I want to see improvements in scheduling and wont stand for a pay cut - but it sounds like the former is happening and the later wont happen. Why grind negotiations to a halt when we have been complaining about it taking too long?

I think we are asking for a release due to the very slow pace and the fact that management has not been negotiating in good faith for a very long time. I think our mediator is very aware of the situation. It will be interesting to see if he parks us or extends the negotiating time a bit longer.

I am not naive at the types of jobs that are available in the Atlanta area, but you can always move for a better spot. I would rather shut down the place than take a crappy contract with a pay cut. Hopefully Bryan LaDick has figured this out.

 

[79%N1]

Manager of a QT gas station starts at $40,000/year. Pretty sad. Didnt make that 5 years into my airline pilot career! Oops. Bad career choice.

 

[sweptback]

I think we are asking for a release due to the very slow pace and the fact that management has not been negotiating in good faith for a very long time. I think our mediator is very aware of the situation. It will be interesting to see if he parks us or extends the negotiating time a bit longer.

I know what you mean by the above, but it's important to clarify one thing. Management is not negotiating in bad faith... they are showing up to sessions and entertaining our ideas, however they just show up unprepared and give us worthless proposals.

I agree that the mediator is aware of the situation. Keep in mind too that his job is to get a contract, and he's failing at that right now. I'd hope he puts some pressure on the company as a result of having nothing done by his deadline. Whether we get released or not... I'm not sure. Fingers crossed.

 

[JoeMerchant]

and you're smoking crack if you think ALPA only donated money "donated" by PAC supporters.

You're right ohplease. ALPA is a member of the AFL-CIO and is in the Dems. back pocket while 80% of it's membership votes Republican or Libertarian. I take ALPA's PAC postage paid evelopes and send a message back to the PAC. I encourage others to do the same.... ALPA has to pay the postage if you send it back with a message....

 

[JoeMerchant]

So you guys are telling me that Skywest separates their profits into SKW profits, and ASA profits? I dont know about that, but I suppose its possible. I guess thats another way to whipsaw. Tell the OO boys that 'all the profits came from ASA' .

Well, it may be that most of us on this board have no clue how competition in the industry works in relation to profits. We all think that if the company is profitable, then there is more money for us to split up; hence more pay. In order to get the initial contract, you have to provide an RFP. That RFP will be based on a CASM, lets say 8.5 cents. The company will bid based on their current cost plus a small profit. The contract is let with milestones or goals to accomplish with rewards associated in those areas. These payments when goals are met are then put into profit sharing accounts to be paid to the employees. If they are not met, then the company still has the basic contract, but not the additional funds. If we were paid up front for these funds, the company would be in the red at this time.

If on the otherhand we just went for extra pay and additional contract costs up front, our CASM would be 10.2 for instance. Now when the RFP is submitted, we most certainly can not compete if there is another carrier bidding an 8.7 CASM. This of course is not conducive to current ALPA tactics.

What we have to do is realize how the competition is bid against, how the management bonuses are played in, how the profit sharing affects our bottom line, and determine what the benefits of additional airframes would give to the pilot group. We then have to come up with an even point to stay competitive and still remain profitable.

The problem here is trusting management to divvy out the money that the working groups worked hard to get. There are ways to ensure that and I think that Skywest Management does that. Maybe we need to educate our pilot group a little more on how the process works so that most of us don't live in a constant conspiracy theory.

Personally, it looks to me that in the last couple negotiating meetings that quite a bit has been accomplished. The last two updates show significant completion in many areas. I think we may be on the down hill portion. When they stated that they have reached some criteria for a commuter clause with a little more tweaking to go, I knew that someone has talked with our management.

OK, I'm finished :smash:

Well said Tim... don't expect "ALPA" to agree with you however. There are agenda's that are preventing cooler heads from prevailing....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I think we are asking for a release due to the very slow pace and the fact that management has not been negotiating in good faith for a very long time. I think our mediator is very aware of the situation. It will be interesting to see if he parks us or extends the negotiating time a bit longer.

I am not naive at the types of jobs that are available in the Atlanta area, but you can always move for a better spot. I would rather shut down the place than take a crappy contract with a pay cut. Hopefully Bryan LaDick has figured this out.

Well 601, as someone who was involved in negotiations in the beginning, I can tell you you it was ALPA that originally started dragging things out. I have the MEC meeting agenda from Dec '01 in my flight bag if you want to actually come up to me face to face to discuss it. I thought that was a mistake 4 years ago, but that is what the "experts" decided. Now they are upset that things didn't work out the way they wanted.

You may want to "shut down the place", but many of us disagree. Come talk to me about it if you are man enough..........

 

[JoeMerchant]

Manager of a QT gas station starts at $40,000/year. Pretty sad. Didnt make that 5 years into my airline pilot career! Oops. Bad career choice.

But what does a QT gas station manager top out at? It was ALPA that set a pay scale from poverty to $300,000 per year. Maybe ALPA should have put more money in the early years instead of taking it to pay senior mainline pilots $300,000 per year..... ALPA is no stranger to greed......

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree that the mediator is aware of the situation. Keep in mind too that his job is to get a contract, and he's failing at that right now. I'd hope he puts some pressure on the company as a result of having nothing done by his deadline. Whether we get released or not... I'm not sure. Fingers crossed.

Wrong sweptback. The job of the mediator and the NMB is to prevent a disruption in air travel through the RLA. His job is not to "get a contract". We are making progress with our new management. Let's give it a chance.

 

[Texx]

Well 601, as someone who was involved in negotiations in the beginning, I can tell you you it was ALPA that originally started dragging things out. I have the MEC meeting agenda from Dec '01 in my flight bag if you want to actually come up to me face to face to discuss it. I thought that was a mistake 4 years ago, but that is what the "experts" decided. Now they are upset that things didn't work out the way they wanted.

You may want to "shut down the place", but many of us disagree. Come talk to me about it if you are man enough..........

Hmmmmm John. Out here in SLC, Jerry told us that it was DAL directing the 3 years of delays.

You slam ALPA and your the LEC Sec/Tres in ATL but when it comes to the Company slowing the process, your silent. Not a word.

 

[Texx]

ALPA is no stranger to greed......

Neither were you during the 1998 contract negotiations. You shouldn't throw stones in a glass house.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Hmmmmm John. Out here in SLC, Jerry told us that it was DAL directing the 3 years of delays.

You slam ALPA and your the LEC Sec/Tres in ATL but when it comes to the Company slowing the process, your silent. Not a word.

Texx, I don't doubt for a minute that DAL has been dragging things out. I also know first hand that WE, ie ASA ALPA, dragged things out from the beginning. I have the MEC agenda from 2001 and witnesses to corroborate. I'm never silent, you must not know me. If you are man enough, why don't you introduce yourself and we can discuss this....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Neither were you during the 1998 contract negotiations. You shouldn't throw stones in a glass house.

I gave up 6 months of captain pay in 1998 to negotiate... I lost about $10,000 by negotiating.... doesn't sound like greed to me. Maybe you should question what you are being told, or just come and talk to me about face to face if you are man enough....

 

[Texx]

1. I also know first hand that WE, ie ASA ALPA, dragged things out from the beginning.
2. I'm never silent, you must not know me.
3. If you are man enough, why don't you introduce yourself and we can discuss this....

1. So. What's wrong with having a "strategy"?

2. You are correct. Your a legend in your own mind!

3. It has nothing to do with being a man, it has all to do with using your head. I like this type of forum to talk about things. It shows people the real you.

I think I'll just stay out here in the mountains with my laptop and continue our little relationship.

 

[Texx]

I gave up 6 months of captain pay in 1998 to negotiate... I lost about $10,000 by negotiating.... doesn't sound like greed to me. Maybe you should question what you are being told, or just come and talk to me about face to face if you are man enough....

You "gave up". Did the association come to your door with a gun and force you to negotiate for the union that you hate soo much? You did end up getting what you wanted though. The pay for training money! Yes Barney told the DFW pilots all about it.

You know what John. I'm getting board with you.

I see a common thread in your messages. "Man enough". You just can't figure it out can you. Think before you speak John.

 

[JoeMerchant]

1. So. What's wrong with having a "strategy"?

2. You are correct. Your a legend in your own mind!

3. It has nothing to do with being a man, it has all to do with using your head. I like this type of forum to talk about things. It shows people the real you.

I think I'll just stay out here in the mountains with my laptop and continue our little relationship.

1. Nothing wrong with a "strategy". I wish ALPA had one. Can you tell me what ALPA's stategy is??? I know, you can't tell me... it's top secret.

2. No, I'm a realist. Most ALPA true believers aren't.

3. Sounds like your a chicken $h!t to me.... that's OK you will make a great ALPA leader.... By the way, you are better off perusing sex websites if you want a relationship....

 

[Texx]

3. Sounds like your a chicken $h!t to me.... that's OK you will make a great ALPA leader.... By the way, you are better off purusing sex websites if you want a relationship....

John, it's spelled "pursuing".

 

[JoeMerchant]

You "gave up". Did the association come to your door with a gun and force you to negotiate for the union that you hate soo much? You did end up getting what you wanted though. The pay for training money! Yes Barney told the DFW pilots all about it.

No, they didn't "come to my door with a gun". I made the mistake of blindly following ALPA in '97,'98 and they came up with a POS TA in early '98. I led a "just say NO" campaign with buttons and helped vote the ND TA down. That was my first lesson in how ALPA works. My next lesson came in Herndon and DC - where regionals and ASA were second class citizens.

I believe those who paid for training should be reimbursed as did the polling data. Barney didn't like it, but that doesn't surprise me.

You know what John. I'm getting board with you.

I see a common thread in your messages. "Man enough". You just can't figure it out can you. Think before you speak John.

No your not, or wouldn't be debating me. Your board because you are losing a debate, something I see often in ALPA true believers. I always think before I speak, I just wish ALPA would think period....

 

[JoeMerchant]

John, it's spelled "pursuing".

You're absolutely correct Texx. Now do you want to address the issue of ALPA having a "strategy". You brought it up, why don't you tell me what it is? I guess you are admitting that ALPA doesn't have a strategy...... I am more interested in strategy than spelling.

 

[goodto50meters]

I can’t stand it when conservatives try to teach an economics lesson as if their line of thinking is the only right way. I’ve got news for you, a free market without some government restraint is a BAD thing. Greed WILL kick in and the lower and middle classes will get screwed, and if you look around it’s already happening. Just look at Delta, where pilots who have been with the company for decades are being asked to take huge pay cuts while management that has been there less than 5 years are being given severance packages by a company that can’t afford to pay it’s employees.

Take it easy with the conservatives bashing. Elitist Democrat Liberals are just as greedy as anyone else. Some government oversight is nessecary, but you can only legislate a fair oportunity not a fair outcome. Delta management has the right to incompetently run the airline if they want to. They can run it into the ground at their convenience. The only ones who can stop it is the BOD and the shareholders who put them there. Their behavior with the severance packages and the bonuses is unconcionable. Simply put: Bad management!

I dont like it when Liberals give an econ lesson either

 

[sweptback]

Wrong sweptback. The job of the mediator and the NMB is to prevent a disruption in air travel through the RLA. His job is not to "get a contract". We are making progress with our new management. Let's give it a chance.

We're arguing over semantics and are basically saying the same thing. However, I would disagree that the new management is making progress. We're no closer to a new contract than we were in last September when SkyWest purchased us.

I think it's great that you're content being in the top ten on your aircraft and all, but some of us are trying to make ASA a better place to work for everybody. In the grand scheme of things, your one "no" vote is going to be greatly outshadowed.

 

[Bizjet]

You "gave up". Did the association come to your door with a gun and force you to negotiate for the union that you hate soo much? You did end up getting what you wanted though. The pay for training money! Yes Barney told the DFW pilots all about it.

You know what John. I'm getting board with you.

I see a common thread in your messages. "Man enough". You just can't figure it out can you. Think before you speak John.

Tex you can't reason with a bitter little person like JOE MERCHANT. He is a waste of your time. He can't even do something as simple as taking minutes at an LEC meeting especially since he doesn't attend most of the meetings. When he did take the minutes at one meeting he took them home along with the sign in log and has still refused all attempts by the LEC Chairman and ALPA national to return this ALPA property. He is a spoiled brat and is codependent on another individual at ASA. He likes to lecture everyone on his version of the facts. His revisionist history is what he has twisted in his mind. He has distorted the truth so much that he believes his own B.S. He is a victim or at least he thinks he is. Each day he keeps his ALPA position he is flipping off all the pilots at ASA. He has no integrity and is just a bully behind the keyboard. Mommy should take his keyboard away for a few weeks. If he needs to have a little something to play with his Mommy can cut a hole in his pants pockets. That should keep him entertained. Maybe he can suck his toes. Little babies can do that you know.

If he has even a shred of integrity left he will resign his position in the union he so much hates. I wonder what skeletons he has in his closet that makes him such an ALPA hater. I was told that he got so drunk at an ALPA function at the Air and Space museum in D.C. that other pilots had to physically carry him to the bus for the ride back to Herndon. He is an embarrassment to this pilot group. While ALPA has its own problems ALPA looks totally competent next to this individual.

 

[Bizjet]

3. Sounds like your a chicken $h!t to me.... that's OK you will make a great ALPA leader.... By the way, you are better off pursuing sex websites if you want a relationship....

John, it's spelled "pursuing".

Texx who cares if he can't spell. It does sound like he has experience in pursuing sex websites for his relationships.....

Maybe take his advice on finding a woman. Texans aren't the only ones that love cows.:nuts:

 

[goodto50meters]

John, it's spelled "pursuing".

When dealing with Johnlynn its more like "pu$$y"

 

[goahead]

Who the fark cares about spelling. Talk about what you want then move on. God, don't you have a life.

 

[goodto50meters]

Who the Frick cares about spelling. Talk about what you want then move on. God, don't you have a life.

My life is Lesbians!

 

[JoeMerchant]

I was thinking things were going well with negotiations last week - even the MEC updates point to a lot of movement since the new year. Supposedly the union has asked the mediator to stop talking - that could push us into getting parked or released. This is not good for anyone. If progress is finally being made, and our negotiators confirmed that themselves - good improvements were mentioned to section 13 - why stop?


And for the naive fools who think jobs are easy to comeby - think again. There are alot of jobs to comeby in Atlanta - but they are not quick to hire pilots and dont pay what most think - trust me. Captains at ASA make at least 60 - 100 a year. There are a lot of jobs in the 40 - 60 range, but not alot above that for people with our experience.


I want to see improvements in scheduling and wont stand for a pay cut - but it sounds like the former is happening and the later wont happen. Why grind negotiations to a halt when we have been complaining about it taking too long?

Crjskipper you are correct. Progress is being made, but there is a "radical" element that wants a strike. This is the most progress being made since we started negotiations and you're right to question the motives of asking to be released now.

One thing to keep in mind, the MEC Chairman retires in May, and he was a leader in the failed PATCO strike. Don't blindly follow leaders off a cliff. He wants a confrontation and he is willing to use our jobs in his game of brinkmanship.

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

Give em HELL J.B.
So many clueless people, so little time!
"A smart man always knows what to say, a wise man knows when to say it"

 

[rjcap]

Crjskipper you are correct. Progress is being made, but there is a "radical" element that wants a strike. This is the most progress being made since we started negotiations and you're right to question the motives of asking to be released now.

One thing to keep in mind, the MEC Chairman retires in May, and he was a leader in the failed PATCO strike. Don't blindly follow leaders off a cliff. He wants a confrontation and he is willing to use our jobs in his game of brinkmanship.

Progress on issues such as training and commuter clauses are small potatoes considering what has to be done with scheduling and pay issues. Maybe a little progress was made this past week but I for one would prefer to be released to self help to increase the leverage we have on the company. I don't consider this radical.

The PATCO strike was an illegal strike. I think you maybe comparing apples to oranges by comparing that to our current 3.5 year negotiation. I find your personal attack on the MEC to be petty. Especially at a time when we are " supposedly" making such progress in talks.

I find your posts to be interesting but extremely biased. You and your cohorts at the company are extremely senior and enjoy a substantially better quality of life then the majority of us. I realize that comes with seniority however you are entitled to 1 vote like the rest of us. You may have much to lose if we shut the airline down but the vast majority of us don't.

$60 -$100 thousand a year ???

I know a number of 7-8 year Captains around the 70k mark but I know of nobody outside the training department making that 100 grand mark. Maybe with your seniority you are living a comfortable existence. I believe you are top 10 on the ATR ?? That provides you with a level of scheduling flexibility that few of us can even dream about.

If you want too promote your conciliatory stance on this board so be it but realize your interests are your own and are not shared by the majority of us. A great deal of us want REAL improvements in scheduling and unless that happens we will be content to push the issue to a strike. We all know what this company and its management has done to us over the years. Especially mgmt that was previousely line pilots and ALPA reps. We are in a position where there is absolutely no trust in mgmt. The only thing we have is what can be drafted as an ironclad agreement that cannot be manipulated to our disadvantage.


Does anybody know when we hear about the Mediators decision ???

 

[crjskipper]

601 said - I would rather shut down the place than take a crappy contract with a pay cut.

Bold statement - 6000 people work for ASA. Most, like me, support a family. I know if I dont like it I'll vote it down. If I become completely unhappy with my job - I have a right to and will leave. I dont feel it's my right to 'shut it down' and destroy the lives of 6000 other people - and all their families - because I'm not happy. If you are not happy - leave.

And as to strategy - I remember very clearly two years ago to this month John Rice talking to a group of us in the lounge. He said very clearly that ALPA strategy was to wait for the economy to improve and that slow was good. Then the economy didnt improve and Bob and Co were in a pickle. Three years is too long, but I dont believe ASA management is solely to blame for that. Now management needs an agreement quick - thats good for us. ALPA has spun a pure "this is a concessionary agreement" line but it sounds like there will be improvements in pay for most and scheduling for all.

And to the comment about Bob. He has two months left and nothing to lose. My family has everything to lose. I want a better and fair contract but I dont take the mercenary approach that it better meet my liking or I burn the place down - I dont think we have that right.