ASA talks update?

[601Pilot]

Well 601, as someone who was involved in negotiations in the beginning, I can tell you you it was ALPA that originally started dragging things out. I have the MEC meeting agenda from Dec '01 in my flight bag if you want to actually come up to me face to face to discuss it. I thought that was a mistake 4 years ago, but that is what the "experts" decided. Now they are upset that things didn't work out the way they wanted.

You may want to "shut down the place", but many of us disagree. Come talk to me about it if you are man enough..........

Well, thankfully you are only 1 vote, just as I am. You have your opinion and I have mine. I guess we'll just have to see how the next few weeks play out to see which of us is better at predicting the future.

And why would I want to go over to D to have a discussion about this stuff?
I try to keep the amount of time I spend at the airport to a minimum! I like my time off.

 

[601Pilot]

601 said - I would rather shut down the place than take a crappy contract with a pay cut.

Bold statement - 6000 people work for ASA. Most, like me, support a family. I know if I dont like it I'll vote it down. If I become completely unhappy with my job - I have a right to and will leave. I dont feel it's my right to 'shut it down' and destroy the lives of 6000 other people - and all their families - because I'm not happy. If you are not happy - leave.

And as to strategy - I remember very clearly two years ago to this month John Rice talking to a group of us in the lounge. He said very clearly that ALPA strategy was to wait for the economy to improve and that slow was good. Then the economy didnt improve and Bob and Co were in a pickle. Three years is too long, but I dont believe ASA management is solely to blame for that. Now management needs an agreement quick - thats good for us. ALPA has spun a pure "this is a concessionary agreement" line but it sounds like there will be improvements in pay for most and scheduling for all.

And to the comment about Bob. He has two months left and nothing to lose. My family has everything to lose. I want a better and fair contract but I dont take the mercenary approach that it better meet my liking or I burn the place down - I dont think we have that right.

I'm sure you are trying to leave just like the rest of us, but the pace of hiring by other companies dictates the number of us that can leave each month. Of course, some of us are moving to completely different occupations. I will feel bad for the other people that work for ASA if management decides to not move forward, but that is management's decision. If you were MEC chairman, how long would you continue to negotiate, 1, 2, 5 years? Plot out your strategy and I might change my mind about striking. Under the status quo, I was ready to strike about 18 months ago.

 

[D'Angelo]

If I don't see 100% retro pay (75 hr guarantee or better per month that we have been in negotiations) plus a commuter clause I will not sign!!

Sorry a contract only becomes AMENDABLE it doesn't mean just because its been AMENDABLE since 2002 that you deserve retro pay. If it EXPIRED maybe but its AMENDABLE meaning you negotiate. BTW no one deserves a commuter clause. We all checked the box on the app that we are willing to relocate. You can choose to commute if you want but you butter your bread now sleep in it. You make the choice to commute so ergo you choose to accept the consequences if you miss your commute I.E loss of sick pay or other problems.

 

[crjskipper]

I agree 601, I was extremely unhappy a year ago with how I thought things were being run. If you would have asked me if I would have believed you one year ago of all the changes we have as of today - drew gone, gg out, willie out and a pilot running planning. I like to show up, do my job and go home. I dont enjoy sitting around the lounge rapping about how bad it is. I think I'm pretty lucky to have a lot of friends outside of this industry. I also am not in a hurry to leave - many of my friends have and are less happy than I.

This whole industry is crazy - but the more I look outside-in, almost all of my friends doing really well are all non-unionized. I think a lot of things have gotten better lately, with a long way to go. Blaming everything on management is unfair - and I'm not pouring cool-aid. Most if not all of the folks I thought openly abused the contract are gone. I know our bag numbers suck - but know thats not our managements fault. I know our performance isnt the best - we fly from the worlds busiest airport, oh well. Do I want to make more money - of course, but I dont think I'm paid unfairly now.

But I find it rediculous to think that scorched earth is the right course of action. Move on if this isnt what you want, but dont hurt those who need this place - or those who enjoy this place.

 

[ohplease!]

Sorry a contract only becomes AMENDABLE it doesn't mean just because its been AMENDABLE since 2002 that you deserve retro pay. If it EXPIRED maybe but its AMENDABLE meaning you negotiate. BTW no one deserves a commuter clause. We all checked the box on the app that we are willing to relocate. You can choose to commute if you want but you butter your bread now sleep in it. You make the choice to commute so ergo you choose to accept the consequences if you miss your commute I.E loss of sick pay or other problems.

This is going to come as a big shock to some here but, EVEN I think you're an idiot...

 

[ohplease!]

If you would have asked me if I would have believed you one year ago of all the changes we have as of today - drew gone, gg out, willie out and a pilot running planning. I like to show up, do my job and go home. I dont enjoy sitting around the lounge rapping about how bad it is. I think I'm pretty lucky to have a lot of friends outside of this industry. I also am not in a hurry to leave - many of my friends have and are less happy than I.

This whole industry is crazy - but the more I look outside-in, almost all of my friends doing really well are all non-unionized. I think a lot of things have gotten better lately, with a long way to go. Blaming everything on management is unfair - and I'm not pouring cool-aid. Most if not all of the folks I thought openly abused the contract are gone. I know our bag numbers suck - but know thats not our managements fault. I know our performance isnt the best - we fly from the worlds busiest airport, oh well. Do I want to make more money - of course, but I dont think I'm paid unfairly now.

But I find it rediculous to think that scorched earth is the right course of action. Move on if this isnt what you want, but dont hurt those who need this place - or those who enjoy this place.

ditto.

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

BTW no one deserves a commuter clause. We all checked the box on the app that we are willing to relocate. You can choose to commute if you want but you butter your bread now sleep in it.

Now lissen up, toad:.....

Any company that candy-coats a phase-out of an airline hub (Delta's DFW base closure was secretly planned 2 yrs ahead) by announcing "ASA's DFW.....the biggest single-day expansion in airline history", and allows it's employees to move their families with the promise of newfound growth, expansion, upgrades, then watches them buy houses, enroll kids in schools, make friends, then shuts it down a year later........ deserves whatever ill-will it now reaps from having sown those deceptive grits.

That's evil in pure form, abuse of the working class by the privileged few, and now there are wipes like you that say "we don't deserve a commuting clause."

The reason a good "commuting clause" is a strike issue now, with so many ASA pilots, is because the damage has been done without one. We see what management is capable of inflicting on our vulnerable livelihoods.

 

[rjcap]

I agree 601, I was extremely unhappy a year ago with how I thought things were being run. If you would have asked me if I would have believed you one year ago of all the changes we have as of today - drew gone, gg out, willie out and a pilot running planning. I like to show up, do my job and go home. I dont enjoy sitting around the lounge rapping about how bad it is. I think I'm pretty lucky to have a lot of friends outside of this industry. I also am not in a hurry to leave - many of my friends have and are less happy than I.

This whole industry is crazy - but the more I look outside-in, almost all of my friends doing really well are all non-unionized. I think a lot of things have gotten better lately, with a long way to go. Blaming everything on management is unfair - and I'm not pouring cool-aid. Most if not all of the folks I thought openly abused the contract are gone. I know our bag numbers suck - but know thats not our managements fault. I know our performance isnt the best - we fly from the worlds busiest airport, oh well. Do I want to make more money - of course, but I dont think I'm paid unfairly now.

But I find it rediculous to think that scorched earth is the right course of action. Move on if this isnt what you want, but dont hurt those who need this place - or those who enjoy this place.

Are GG and Willy really gone?
Maybe just reshuffled until some future date when they reappear to wreak havoc on the pilot group again !

Regarding the folks who have openly abused the contract being gone. BL is still here. Don't assume for one second he doesn't know whats going on.

Regarding the poor baggage performance. Exactly whose fault is it ????

Go have another glass of koolaid.

 

[crjskipper]

rjcap - knew someone would throw the cool aid moniker. I just call it as I see it - my opinion only, didnt say you had to agree and wouldnt expect it. I'm no lover of BL, but all of these changes have occured for the most part since he took over. Dont agree with all he says but he has the cohonees to show up, as does Scott and Charlie. I dont agree with alot of what they say though I respect them coming and talking to us. Never saw Drew out there, nor Nelson.

Look around the industry - every single airline represented by ALPA is at contention with their management.

ganja - we are outsourced labor, take it or leave it. Delta says fly here, this many. ASA complies. Then they say fly here - this many. I will never understand the 'the truth is out there' mentality that all things are done to be secretive and evil. DFW closing was not a plot, we backsourced Delta and they later decieded to pull the plug. SLC is the same way. If all 700s are pulled back because Delta wants them flying from ATL, will you blame ASA management. I know that by dissenting with the 'BL is satan' crowd that you will throw cool-aid, but it just aint that complicated. Capitalism assumes risks. Go work for a bank, or in sales, or for the government. Expect to move. Blame it on management or the market - up to you.

 

[Dude]

Those of you that would gladly walk out forever on ASA remember this: you may get what you ask for.

I am certainly not happy with our management but you provide a better plan to take an intellectually bankrupt business model and make money with it. We operate in an environment that does not reward mediocrity. Sadly, the employees in Atlanta (some crews included) are mediocre at best. This industry demands that people adapt to the changing marketplace and those who don't, fail. I'm afraid it isn't as simple as drinking kool-aid, it's common-sense. Those of you that would burn the joint down have had very little experience at anything else. Most people do not have the ability to renegotiate their working agreement every 4-5 years and most do not the input that we do. I am not saying that the current state of affairs is acceptable, because it clearly isn't; but to blindly say that it's worth shutting the company down is immature and childish.

We all make choices and have to live with them. My choice is to give our new parent a chance to make this a pleasurable place to work. I think that is a lot more plausible than achieving it through a strike. Our union and management have misused our trust and for that I would rather follow my company than my union if I have to make a choice. My company at least offers me a paycheck, the union just takes my money and has the Balls to lecture me about my lack of volunteerism. Take my 2% and hire someone to do the work we pay you for. Our local guys, for the most part, are okay but they get their cues from Herndon and for that reason I do not trust them to negotiate in my best interests. A union with as many resources should be able to come up with an analysis to show management where inefficiencies are and to pull the cost from there and not our paycheck. Instead, they beat their chests a little harder and insists that profits will sustain more pay. It ain't working that way.

Our union, our management, and ourselves are to blame for the mess we are in. ALPA has refused to adapt and change the way they negotiate, management has failed to realize that a happy workforce is a productive one and that their business model sucks, and we continue to foam at the mouth at the prospect of new equipment, new flying or taking someone elses. All I ask is that before you make a cavalier comment like "burn it down", ask yourself if you have done anything to make this place better. I doubt you have. If your so enlightened, please offer a strategy or a plan to make this $5.00 product produce more than $2.50. Good luck.

 

[Flying Ninja]

You know what John. I'm getting board with you.

It's spelled "bored" not "board". Sorry pal, you had this coming.

 

[D'Angelo]

Going on strike over not getting a commuter clause? Please we all know the risks of getting into this buisness. Bases open, bases close its been that way for quite some time. It happened to american with BNA and RDU back 10 years ago or whatever. It can happen to anyone. We all have freedom of choice. You are more than welcome to commute just don't waste a part of the contract on getting a commuter policy. You always have to have a give and take. Why should the non commuters have to give something away to get back a commuter policy they will never use. Im all for freedom of choice just remember we all knew the risks coming in and we all checked the box that said yes indeed we are willing to relocate. So your saying if you get a good reasonable contract with everything you want except a commuter clause you will strike? I think not believe it or not there are plenty of us that just bite the bullet and move to enhance QOL and stop abusing ourselves.

 

[goodto50meters]

Crjskipper you are correct. Progress is being made, but there is a "radical" element that wants a strike. This is the most progress being made since we started negotiations and you're right to question the motives of asking to be released now.

One thing to keep in mind, the MEC Chairman retires in May, and he was a leader in the failed PATCO strike. Don't blindly follow leaders off a cliff. He wants a confrontation and he is willing to use our jobs in his game of brinkmanship.

Jezus Chryst, BA was NOT a leader in PATCO!.......Prove this please....oh yeah, you cant, because its bullsh!t.

Also, your vile diveling crap doesnt even keep to the same logic line. You say progress is being made (non radical) and then you say the radical element wants a strike, who is of course the evil MEC Chairman.

Not one person I know wants a strike, but they and I will do it if neccesary, and I will vote yes.

I think I have figured you out: Someone hurt you personally. Was it Bob, Duane, ALPA, MEC, who was it? This is personal Johnlynn, someone hurt you so now you are going to hurt them.

Was it because you had no support in your girlfriends attempt to ram-rod you into the cut for a CNC position? I'll bet thats it.

Have a nice life Captain Ahab.

 

[wil]

D'Angelo- Why don't you just stick to smokin blunts and drinking your 40!
A good commuter clause could help those returning from vacation, et cetera.

 

[HoserASA]

I sent Joe (aka as JB) an email asking him to tell me that neither he nor his girlfriend have any interest in running for MEC Chair when Bob retires. So far, no response from him, and yall know how quickly he responds to things. I did hear that SH told the LEC 112 Chair that she would be a good choice for MEC Chair. Sounds like someone is laying the ground work for a run to me. What say you JB????? Can't wait for this answer....

Hoser

 

[Bizjet]

I sent Joe (aka as JB) an email asking him to tell me that neither he nor his girlfriend have any interest in running for MEC Chair when Bob retires. So far, no response from him, and yall know how quickly he responds to things. I did hear that SH told the LEC 112 Chair that she would be a good choice for MEC Chair. Sounds like someone is laying the ground work for a run to me. What say you JB????? Can't wait for this answer....

Hoser

He won't answer because he only asks questions. I also heard that BL had suggested her name as well. Also Asst. Chief Pilots Chucky Viers and Kimie Reed and “almost management” Brad Sheehan is pushing her name. J.B. and L. J.’s frequent meetings with assistant Chief Pilot Chucky Viers sure has some pilots wondering which side they are on. Good thing they have no votes. It is not surprising that management wants a hand puppet in the position. Since she has already crossed over to management once before why wouldn't she do it again? I wonder if her special little friend could be her campaign manager. That is if the two don't scab if the pilots are released to use self help. Joey Merchant has already said he will not support a strike with this MEC's leadership. She would likely have to go with him because they are permanently attached at the hip.

 

[atrdriver]

ALPA has spun a pure "this is a concessionary agreement" line but it sounds like there will be improvements in pay for most and scheduling for all.

Just curious. How do you figure losing premium pay would result in a pay increase for most? If you believe that then you don't know how premium works.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I think not believe it or not there are plenty of us that just bite the bullet and move to enhance QOL and stop abusing ourselves.

The commuter clause sounds like it will happen, just a matter of ironing out its usage parameters.

What is going to be your recommendation to the SLC pilots when their base is closed down?

Remeber that many of the SLC pilots already relocated from DFW less than a year ago.

What about a spouse who has a career as well? What about children that are enrolled in schools? Is it fair to just uproot them in the middle of a school year?

 

[D'Angelo]

I never said anything was fair but life isnt fair. When you take a job unstable as the airline buisness is you are bound to have to move a couple times in your career. You can commute but why should the non commuters have to give up something so a minority can live where they want? Move or live with the hardships of commuting; no more wasting contract space on these silly commuter clauses! That should be ALPOs new motto. HOLLA

 

[Dude]

A lot of folks got into the airline game for the opportunity to get a "decent" paycheck while flying and be able to live where they want. Our pursuit of a commuter clause is no more wasteful than changing scheduling, pay rates, per diem, min. days off, etc....If we aren't going to get, at the minimum, what is fairly standard(QOL) at other airlines then what the hell have we been in a twist over for the last 3+ years. I know people that commute for several reasons, here a few: Doctors because of a chronically sick kid, ailing parents, no state income tax, they hate ATL or their respective base, their kids are in the last years of school and are active, the list goes on and on. I would agree that the commuter clause isn't the most neccessary thing out there, but given the way our SP's are written and the culture here at times it's good to know your sac won't be nailed to the wall because you tried to get to work but..............

The idea isn't to get a free ride and sit at home making for trip value while sipping Mai Tai's. Don't pay me for the portion of the trip I missed and I'll get there as quickly as Delta will let me.

Pay me crap, okay fine. At least let me have the same QOL benefits that everyone else has. Someone told me that 70%+ of the pilots at AirTran and 80%+ of the pilots at jetBlue commute. What is up with those numbers then? More commute than you think, so be careful about the "you pansy-ass commuter" speeches. You're correct in the statement that we hired on here with specific knowkledge of our respective airlines operation and domiciles. What we didn't count on is DAL closing a staple base in their system and having to lose money on our homes or being displaced to another base due to whatever. Insert whatever set of circumstances you like but three are plenty of examples why a pilot's expectations were realistic then, but not now.

 

[HoserASA]

Good thing they have no votes. It is not surprising that management wants a hand puppet in the position. Since she has already crossed over to management once before why wouldn't she do it again? I wonder if her special little friend could be her campaign manager.

In all fairness, LJ accomplished quite a bit for the pilot group, as well as helping out pilots with problems. She was not the type CP that most of you think. She was for the pilots period. And, with DW (ex FltOpsVP) accomplished most of the letters of agreement that have benefited the pilot group.

But yes, something is going on behind the scenes when JB and LJ receive positive thoughts from CPs and VPs don't you think? Someone has an agenda here. But, the LEC officers vote for MEC Chair so hopefully things will work out.

Hoser

 

[Plug]

First off, the MEC chair will be vacant but only 4 votes count for that position and I know all 4 would not let anyone associated with the RJDC near that chair.

Secondly, yeah the CNC drug their feet until better economic times. Do you live in a cave John? Skywest turned $130 mil. profit and has some of the best stock in the industry. Yet, we should not demand some INDUSTRY STANDARD contract provisions? Geez, you sound like management!

Also, John, you wear the "second class citizen" label quite well. You have made a mockery of yourself as a representative of this council and MEC. By your antics up in Herndon, as Bizjet mentioned, you disgraced this MEC. You want to be treated as an equal then don't be a blowhard drunk at a national party!

As far as looking at sex sites on the internet, please keep your 40+ year old porn sites to yourself, that stuff is just nasty!

 

[atrdriver]

In all fairness, LJ accomplished quite a bit for the pilot group, as well as helping out pilots with problems. She was not the type CP that most of you think. She was for the pilots period.

That is absolutly correct. She was a pilots Chief Pilot. I don't know what is going on with her now, but when she and CS were CP's and DW was VP of flight ops were some of the best times that this pilot group has ever had.

 

[IFlyFL410]

I never said anything was fair but life isnt fair. When you take a job unstable as the airline buisness is you are bound to have to move a couple times in your career. You can commute but why should the non commuters have to give up something so a minority can live where they want? Move or live with the hardships of commuting; no more wasting contract space on these silly commuter clauses! That should be ALPOs new motto. HOLLA

What about those of us who moved our lives to say, DFW for starters, setup our lives there, then they shut it down. Wouldn't you be screaming for a commuter clause then? By this example, I followed your guidance by acceping a job and position in a certain domicile. I didn't choose to commute, it was forced upon me. I, for one, bit the bullet and moved to ATL because of the lack of a commuter clause. You should think more rationally about what you post. A large percentage of pilots here are DFW displacements.

 

[ASABound]

Guys and Gals. Beware of this commuter clause that they might have panned out. There should be no max number of times you can use it and if we sign for a max number of times to use it we are lowering the bar even lower. I will vote no to anything less than a commuter clause that is completely open to us and for us to use as necessary unless they include the weight of the cockpit jumpseat as part of the BOW weight as all other real airlines do and give us unrestricted acess. To you junior guys and gals or if you just aren't sure how this commuter clause helps the company let me explain. Keep in mind that the commuter clause at airlines saves the airline money and allows the pilots to police themselves so to speak. UNDERSTAND that at ASA it is a control thing and has nothing to do with cost. let me explain.

1) First of all we are more likely to be at work on time with a commuter clause because guys will be forced to use the 2 or 3 flight rule to be protected by the commuter clause. With that being said how many times have we not been able to get on 2 or 3 flights with the possiblility of the jumpseat? Granted we do get bumped after 1 or 2 but not many.

2) Saves the company from having to use a reserve. If you follow the rules defined in the clause you will once again be more likely to make it to work on time ready to start your trip, and the comapny doesnt have to call a reserve in , wait 2 hours for him to get to the airport or maybe burn an airport standby if that gets negotiated, delay the flight , not to mention paying him per diem and his hourly rate.

3) Probably the most cost savings would be not paying sick time to people who aren't sick and not having to have the middle management (CPO Office) deal with the bull **** attendance policy at ASA. Because we all know that if a commuter gets in a bind going to work that he or she is likely to call in sick.

4) Finally from a moral stand point if we want our employees to be honest concerning our operation, aircraft, and our customers then shouldnt the employer not put the employee in the position to have to lie ?? i.e. call in sick ??
On the flip side if some stupid guy or gal waits till the last flight to get them to work for thier nap and they miss it , then yes they should be held accountable to the company for not following the rules which we agreed upon.

Not going on a soapbox here but we have to understand the importance of this. Our Company closes bases left and right and makes our emplyeees, sell homes, break leases, and ultimately end up commuting (it has happened to me with DFW). We have got to hold them to a standard on this commuter clause that allows you to not have to worry about disciplinary action against your employment when in alot of cases we are forced to commute. They can take whatever they want so to speak but my time at home and seeing my family will always take presedence over ASA especially how they move us all over the country. SLC guys be ready and pay close attention to this, you guys know how they did us in DFW. With all that said , be realistic when we vote on the contract but if affects your quality of life or the amount of time you see your family. Tell them to go pound sand !! Fair Winds and Following Seas !!

 

[enuffalready]

Just curious. How do you figure losing premium pay would result in a pay increase for most? If you believe that then you don't know how premium works.

It effects every paycheck.. It is my understanding that the reason you get your monthly final schedule guarantee is BECAUSE of premium. That's what premium is on your paycheck even if you fly 95 hours.

Only if they change the contract and state that you get paid a minimum based on your final schedule in clear language.

Either way I get hosed. I'm a lifer NAP guy, but I expected this. Its pretty simple. GO after something that only effects a few cuzz you'll get a majority vote. Management would NOT be doing their fiduciary responsibility if they did not to at least attempt it. However, we are the foolish ones for accepting it. But I have said it all along. Most pilots are suckers and talk a big game only to vote no in that anonymous booth, doesn't matter what the airline

 

[atrdriver]

Only if they change the contract and state that you get paid a minimum based on your final schedule in clear language.

That wouldn't be as good as premium. Lets say that you have a line blocked to 80 hours. You fly every leg, no CNX. You fly every leg underblock. Let's say that over the course of the month you only flew 70 hours, with 10 hours of underblock. Will your paycheck be the original 80 hours? No, it will be 85 hours, 5 hours more than your original line, because the premium is paid leg for leg ABOVE guarantee. Thus, 75+10=85 total, instead os your original 80 hour line.

 

[shamrock]

....why should the non commuters have to give up something so a minority can live where they want?

Because there are some "non-commuters" like myself who would likely become commuters if we got a good commuter clause. Even if I stay in Hellanta I would still like us to have a commuter clause just so I have the option should I get sick of being surrounded by all the D'Angelos here.

When you take a job unstable as the airline buisness is you are bound to have to move a couple times in your career.

Moving a couple of times in your career is one thing, moving a couple of times over the course of a few years is another.

 

[buscap]

Commuter clause convert

As a non-commuter I have always been against spending negotiating ammo on a commuter clause. I even indicated this when polled.

The arguements on this thread have changed my mind. With the state of the company and industry I beleive a commuter clause is a strike issue. I will communicate this to the MEC immediately.

Thanks for the good points. It would be nice to have a similar "drive to work" policy: A thing that does deserve consideration is a policy which says you are not late for work if you are in the parking lot 15 minutes prior to duty-in. It sucks when you get screwed by bus/ramp problems.

 

[enuffalready]

That wouldn't be as good as premium. Lets say that you have a line blocked to 80 hours. You fly every leg, no CNX. You fly every leg underblock. Let's say that over the course of the month you only flew 70 hours, with 10 hours of underblock. Will your paycheck be the original 80 hours? No, it will be 85 hours, 5 hours more than your original line, because the premium is paid leg for leg ABOVE guarantee. Thus, 75+10=85 total, instead os your original 80 hour line.

I agree with this.. I think everyone loses if we lose premium...But especially nappers. As a lifetime napper I have not flown more than 35 hours in a month in 4 years...