ASA taking over Freedom flying

[IronCityBlue]

....and yet another example of the conflict of interest.....I don't want them going back....

Tell me what would happen if you put Madogs on those 50 seat routes out of MCO.....Do you actually think they would be profitable?

Would a MD be profitable on a good 50 seat RJ route? Most of the time of course not. But the mainline can take their flying back any time they want to bargain for it. Mainlines can fly 50 seat RJ's anytime they want, either on the property or with a separate subsidiary. As for cost effective, history has proven to anyone with a pulse that outsourcing lift has gone too far and needs to have its trend stopped abruptly, and then reversed. Market based side letters could assure cost competitiveness if necessary to bring those pilot seats back to the mainline seniority list if the mainline pilot groups negotiate to make it happen.

As for conflict of interest, its really a conflict of desire. You don't own one seat of DL code. Not one. You may want your status quo to last forever, but that's not up to you. If you want it to be up to you and your company, go Independence Air.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Would a MD be profitable on a good 50 seat RJ route? Most of the time of course not. But the mainline can take their flying back any time they want to bargain for it. Mainlines can fly 50 seat RJ's anytime they want, either on the property or with a separate subsidiary. As for cost effective, history has proven to anyone with a pulse that outsourcing lift has gone too far and needs to have its trend stopped abruptly, and then reversed. Market based side letters could assure cost competitiveness if necessary to bring those pilot seats back to the mainline seniority list if the mainline pilot groups negotiate to make it happen.

As for conflict of interest, its really a conflict of desire. You don't own one seat of DL code. Not one. You may want your status quo to last forever, but that's not up to you. If you want it to be up to you and your company, go Independence Air.

If the ALPA carriers ASA, CMR, XJT, Mesa, and PNCL along with the Teamster carrier CHQ/Shuttle stopped flying tomorrow....what would happen to Delta? You are working on the assumption that only we rely on Delta and not that Delta also rely's on us.....

In addition...in this environment how do you think ALPA will negotiate all this flying back to the mainline? Will the pilots go with the flying even if it is achievable?

There is a conflict of interest here....more lawsuits if you go down that road.....

 

[Speedtape]

Would a MD be profitable on a good 50 seat RJ route? Most of the time of course not. But the mainline can take their flying back any time they want to bargain for it. Mainlines can fly 50 seat RJ's anytime they want, either on the property or with a separate subsidiary. As for cost effective, history has proven to anyone with a pulse that outsourcing lift has gone too far and needs to have its trend stopped abruptly, and then reversed. Market based side letters could assure cost competitiveness if necessary to bring those pilot seats back to the mainline seniority list if the mainline pilot groups negotiate to make it happen.

As for conflict of interest, its really a conflict of desire. You don't own one seat of DL code. Not one. You may want your status quo to last forever, but that's not up to you. If you want it to be up to you and your company, go Independence Air.

If you work for Delta, you don't "own" one seat of DL code, either. In fact, the last time I looked, more than 50% of Delta Domestic is now flown by DCI. Can anyone else confirm this? The only entity that "owns" Delta code is Delta, Inc.--not to be confused with the other wholly-owned subsidiary, Delta Airlines.

In the late 90's, the number of pilots on the Delta seniority list approached 10,000. Today, it is around 5800. What leverage do you have to negotiate anything?

In your mind, outsourcing may have gone too far, but the reality is that it will continue to grow and your domestic flying will continue to shrink. Your pilots do not want to fly small jets. They gave that up in 1996 which allowed outsourcing, and the rest of the pilot groups had to follow. Of course, you were probably in elementary school then, and should not be blamed.

The only thing that mainline pilot groups will negotiate is further scope relief to regain some pay and benefits. As a result, you will perpetuate the outsourcing that you so hate! It's coming. International flying will increase, requiring a few more pilots, but the relief on scope will cause a further shrinking of your list. Outsourcing and further shifting of domestic flying to DCI will continue under present trends and fuel costs. MGMT has you over the barrel. Just watch for the next round of concessionary bargaining.

The only entity that "owns" DL code or seats is Inc.--not your pilot group or the wholly-owned company that you work for!

 

[JoeMerchant]

If you work for Delta, you don't "own" one seat of DL code, either. In fact, the last time I looked, more than 50% of Delta Domestic is now flown by DCI. Can anyone else confirm this? The only entity that "owns" Delta code is Delta, Inc.--not to be confused with the other wholly-owned subsidiary, Delta Airlines.

In the late 90's, the number of pilots on the Delta seniority list approached 10,000. Today, it is around 5800. What leverage do you have to negotiate anything?

In your mind, outsourcing may have gone too far, but the reality is that it will continue to grow and your domestic flying will continue to shrink. Your pilots do not want to fly small jets. They gave that up in 1996 which allowed outsourcing, and the rest of the pilot groups had to follow. Of course, you were probably in elementary school then, and should not be blamed.

The only thing that mainline pilot groups will negotiate is further scope relief to regain some pay and benefits. As a result, you will perpetuate the outsourcing that you so hate! It's coming. International flying will increase, requiring a few more pilots, but the relief on scope will cause a further shrinking of your list. Outsourcing and further shifting of domestic flying to DCI will continue under present trends and fuel costs. MGMT has you over the barrel. Just watch for the next round of concessionary bargaining.

The only entity that "owns" DL code or seats is Inc.--not your pilot group or the wholly-owned company that you work for!

Exactly correct....except where did you get 1996 from? The RJ flying started in 1993 I thought with CMR....Actually the start of this mess was with Eastern in the early 80s....

 

[Speedtape]

Exactly correct....except where did you get 1996 from? The RJ flying started in 1993 I thought with CMR....Actually the start of this mess was with Eastern in the early 80s....

You are correct, it did start in the 80's at Eastern with Turboprops. Mainline pilots did not want to return to turboprops and ALPA negotiated the scope relief to allow the original outsourcing, aka, Eastern Metro Express. Later, and as a result, ASA, the original DL feeder, signed a marketing agreement in the mid-80's.

Then the camel stuck his nose under the tent, further! Along came the RJ. Comair did start flying the 50's in 1993 under the code, because it fell in the "permissable seat range" in the "then" scope provisions of the Delta Pilot Working Agreement. Their scope was weak, and only required that flying above a certain seat range and gross weight be flown by pilots on their list. The Comair RJ100, 50 seater, fell way below those restrictions.

However, the DL pilots were negotiating in the mid 90's when talks broke down over pay rates and some other desired benefits. Suddenly, but not by coincidence, ASA started flying the BAE-146 in the 1996 time frame. The Delta MEC attempted to restrain Delta and ASA from flying the BAE-146 under the brand. Apparently, this aircraft, number of seats configured by design, bumped up to, but not over the "permissable aircraft" seats allowed. Their scope and the language was originally crafted for a seat allowance (86, maybe) and a gross weight. It was crafted more for Turbo props because there were no Regional Jets prior to 1993. Once legal attempts failed to restrain further delivery of the ASA BAE-146, the Delta MEC immediately requested the company back to the table, caved on some pay rate and benefit demands that caused the previous negotiation break-down, and negotiated new Scope to limit, but grandfather, the number of BAE-146's to 21 that could fly under the Delta code. A contract was quickly signed! The arrival of the BAE-146 was, without doubt, orchestrated to create the issue, and to help close out the 1996 contract. The BAE-146 went away in 1998 when the short term leases ended. Looking back, it amounted to coordinated Corporate efforts to create an issue that would bring DL Pilot compromise and closure to the 1996 contract.

Included in that same agreement, unlimited 50 seat jets were allowed in the scope provision of that contract as "permissable aircraft." At a later date, and maybe a different contract, a limited number of RJ70's were added to the scope provision--maybe in compromise to eliminate the "allowed" and grandfathered 21 BAE-146's.

 

[dooork]

If you work for Delta, you don't "own" one seat of DL code, either. In fact, the last time I looked, more than 50% of Delta Domestic is now flown by DCI. Can anyone else confirm this? The only entity that "owns" Delta code is Delta, Inc.--not to be confused with the other wholly-owned subsidiary, Delta Airlines.

In the late 90's, the number of pilots on the Delta seniority list approached 10,000. Today, it is around 5800. What leverage do you have to negotiate anything?

In your mind, outsourcing may have gone too far, but the reality is that it will continue to grow and your domestic flying will continue to shrink. Your pilots do not want to fly small jets. They gave that up in 1996 which allowed outsourcing, and the rest of the pilot groups had to follow. Of course, you were probably in elementary school then, and should not be blamed.

The only thing that mainline pilot groups will negotiate is further scope relief to regain some pay and benefits. As a result, you will perpetuate the outsourcing that you so hate! It's coming. International flying will increase, requiring a few more pilots, but the relief on scope will cause a further shrinking of your list. Outsourcing and further shifting of domestic flying to DCI will continue under present trends and fuel costs. MGMT has you over the barrel. Just watch for the next round of concessionary bargaining.

The only entity that "owns" DL code or seats is Inc.--not your pilot group or the wholly-owned company that you work for!

Bravo. Well said.

 

[dooork]

Exactly correct....except where did you get 1996 from? The RJ flying started in 1993 I thought with CMR....Actually the start of this mess was with Eastern in the early 80s....

It was Allegheny/ Mohawk in the 50's.

 

[Speedtape]

It was Allegheny/ Mohawk in the 50's.

That had to do more with meger and integration of seniority lists.

However, US Airways and Piedmont, before and after their merger, signed marketing agreements with several turbo prop operators in the early 80's for feed and the concept became very successful. The model was followed by other carriers, like DL and ASA, where scope allowed.

In the mid to late 80's, RJ's were still on the drawing board for Bill Lear and when the concept was presented to the Legend carriers, there was a MGMT mentality that an RJ could not be profitable. This anti-RJ profitabilty argument was led by Robert Crandall, the AMR CEO. At the time, AMR and Crandall dictated what happened in the industry--every other airline followed to be competitive. Crandall may have been staunch on the issue because APA had the best scope language and good pay and benefits. At that time, had RJ's been purchased at AMR, APA pilots would have flown them, with their associtated pay and benefit cost structure. The Pilots, F/As, MTC, and customer service cost structures may have made them marginally profitable.

Comair's introduction of the RJ and it's financial success destroyed the profitability arguments. Of course, it was more profitable being flown by lower costs Pilots, F/As, MTC, and customer service. Also, it was allowed under the DL Pilot Working Agreement because it fit in the "permissable aircraft" under their scope. Their scope was written to allow flying under a seat range of about 86 seats and a gross weight of something around 85,000 lbs. RJs were never envisioned when this language was modified somewhere in the early 80's. They had focused scope on turbo props like the ATR. The DL pilots did not want to fly Turbo props again, they desired large jets. The rest is history. By the way, AMR, had to follow the trend to remain competitive. However, they had to get scope relief from APA to allow the lower costs.

 

[IronCityBlue]

If you work for Delta, you don't "own" one seat of DL code, either. In fact, the last time I looked, more than 50% of Delta Domestic is now flown by DCI. Can anyone else confirm this? The only entity that "owns" Delta code is Delta, Inc.--not to be confused with the other wholly-owned subsidiary, Delta Airlines.

In the late 90's, the number of pilots on the Delta seniority list approached 10,000. Today, it is around 5800. What leverage do you have to negotiate anything?

In your mind, outsourcing may have gone too far, but the reality is that it will continue to grow and your domestic flying will continue to shrink. Your pilots do not want to fly small jets. They gave that up in 1996 which allowed outsourcing, and the rest of the pilot groups had to follow. Of course, you were probably in elementary school then, and should not be blamed.

The only thing that mainline pilot groups will negotiate is further scope relief to regain some pay and benefits. As a result, you will perpetuate the outsourcing that you so hate! It's coming. International flying will increase, requiring a few more pilots, but the relief on scope will cause a further shrinking of your list. Outsourcing and further shifting of domestic flying to DCI will continue under present trends and fuel costs. MGMT has you over the barrel. Just watch for the next round of concessionary bargaining.

The only entity that "owns" DL code or seats is Inc.--not your pilot group or the wholly-owned company that you work for!

You are right, ONLY DL management "owns" DL code. Woops, but they can't just assign 777 DL code to OO now, can they? Nope. Why is that? Because ONLY their pilots have the legal right to negotiate to fly DL code, and/or to allow some of it to be outsourced according to their terms. Delta owns the code, but the Delta pilots own tie right to fly that code. They can make exceptions or they can take those exceptions back, and there is nothing you can do about that. You only own the rights to fly the code for your airline according to your PWA.

 

[IronCityBlue]

If the ALPA carriers ASA, CMR, XJT, Mesa, and PNCL along with the Teamster carrier CHQ/Shuttle stopped flying tomorrow....what would happen to Delta? You are working on the assumption that only we rely on Delta and not that Delta also rely's on us.....

In addition...in this environment how do you think ALPA will negotiate all this flying back to the mainline? Will the pilots go with the flying even if it is achievable?

There is a conflict of interest here....more lawsuits if you go down that road.....

If all the DL feed stopped instantly tomorrow, yes Delta would be in a world of hurt. Millions of stranded pax, feed cut off, etc. But the point you keep missing is that while Delta needs 90 and 70 and some 50 seat RJ's, they don't need your company to fly them. Not only that, they can fly them either on their property or with a newly created subsidiary piloted exclusively by their pilots. These things have to be negotiated for and won't happen all overnight (although all 90's could be brought in house pretty quickly, followed by 70's in the coming years, etc) but in any case that is the right of the mainline pilot groups to negotiate if they so choose.

As for more lawsuits, bring it. Seriously, bring it. Your last one fizzled out in a blaze of glory, and suing to stop Delta from doing their own flying will be even more laughable. Why don't you sue Pinnacle for underbidding you? Oh that's right, you CAN'T. Yet you think mainline is bound to always outsource something they once outsource. Right.