ASA Pilots.. Is this what you are happy with?

[av8tor4239]

Palerider,
Show me where we are paid below average. Back your argument up with some facts. See my above post to Av8tor. We are above average in pay and in time off.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/44/36/

we all do the same job, do we not?

 

[av8tor4239]

Listen Junior, I told you I can't afford the paycut to go to Greyhound. As far as my "narrow minded selfishness", that's the ALPA way. Every man for themselve. We are too divided to come together.

you ever think that you might be the cause of that?

Let me get this straight, you cant afford to go to greyhound, but you can afford to let management walk all over your current contract ("start sarcasm" which gives you such a great QOL "end sarcasm"), and degrade you quality of life, pay, work rules, and put our job security even more in jepardy than it already is?

I thought job security was your big platform?

You are wrong about the "ALPA way"...

ALPA relies on us to unite (definition: group, not individuals) to improve what we already have... to promote the profession, and to make this a job worth having..

ASA DRIVER.. you are alone and confused, I have pitty for you.

Sorry bud

 

[av8tor4239]

Thanks, but I can't afford the pay cut. They make far less than I do.

Then you need to be out there walking in circles demonstrating your resolve to keep it from becoming that way (because it will) and DONT let management take it away from you!

Why would I take a paycut. You see this is the problem Av8tor. Our pay is above average.

Maybe for a 700 captain, you selfish bastard

Our time off is above average. We can't afford to threaten to shut it down.

Back it up b!tch

 

[ASADriver]

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/44/36/

we all do the same job, do we not?

Be careful what you wish for. Your either a second or third year FO correct? Go to the link that you provided. You will see that our current contract pays FOs more than AirWisc., CHQ, Mesa, Mesaba, MidAtlantic, Pinnacle, PSA, TSA, EGL, and your former carrier XJT. In other words, you would take a PAYCUT at any of these carriers. The paycut is worse if you are a 70 seat FO at ASA. If you really want to get depressed, look at how much of a paycut you would take if you flew the ATR somewhere else. Most of these contracts have been negotiated since our current contract.

So I ask you av8tor, we all do the same job, do we not? You are paid more to do your job than others. Now what was it you were saying junior?

 

[ASADriver]

Maybe for a 700 captain, you selfish bastard


Back it up b!tch

OK. Go to the link you provided me. Our FO pay is above average. Go have a look for yourself if you don't believe me. Don't take my word for it, go take a look. The only pilots at ASA that are below average are 50 seat captains. 70 seat capt., ATR capts, and all FO's are above average.

This "selfish bastard" is in the only group here at ASA that is actually below average. You are above average.

You need some anger management therapy junior.

 

[Palerider957]

ASA Driver:

Ask any first year Fo if their pay and time off is above average. Hell, ask a 5-year FO about their pay.

You cite average transportation worker pay, why would you shoot for average??? I'm sure you know this, but contracts build upon each other, year after year.

How do you feel about all the Crew Sched violations?? This has been going on unabated for years.

How about the draftings, extensions, etc?

What about the slipping maint. at ASA?? (just put a sticker on it and get'er done)??

The complete lack of respect for seniorty at ASA?

ASADriver, you are either totally oblivious, or you are a member of management. There isn't a third option.

 

[Palerider957]

Also, strictly hourly pay rates hardly tell the story. It's all in the W-2.

How about trip rigs, duty rigs, minimum day. Only a management "leadership team member" would be so wrapped up in hourly rates.

 

[av8tor4239]

I am a 3rd year FO, and DAM PROUD OF IT

The only one in this discussion that is willing to take a pay cut is you.. By not supporting your MEC, you are willing to take whatever your ASA mangament is willing to give you!

Again.. Read the first post of this thread!

ASA Driver, I am not walking in circles, and supporting my MEC for pay only... Pay is a big issue, but QOL, including the complete disregard for Senority in section 24, your big issue::: SCOPE, the fact that the company proposes to take away the 6 hour ATL hotel stay, not increase per diem, even though the cost of living is increasing, and every other section THAT WE HAVE NOT EVEN BEGAN TO NEGOTIATE!

and stop calling me Junior! Senior (citizen)

 

[av8tor4239]

How about trip rigs, duty rigs, minimum day. Only a management "leadership team member" would be so wrapped up in hourly rates.

Yeah.. Front loaded NAPS
13.59 hour scheduled duty day

7 leg day lines
13.59 hour scheduled duty day

 

[ASADriver]

ASA Driver:

Ask any first year Fo if their pay and time off is above average. Hell, ask a 5-year FO about their pay.

First year FOs are below average. 5 year FOs are above average. 5 year ATR and 700 FOs are well above average. Go have a look for yourself. The only pilots at ASA that are below average are 200 captains and first year FOs. Go look at Av8tors link.

You cite average transportation worker pay, why would you shoot for average??? I'm sure you know this, but contracts build upon each other, year after year.

I only pulled up those statistics because I was told by av8tor to go to Greyhound. Those statistics show that I am payed way above other transportation workers. Many of those workers are unionized. Yes I am aware of how contracts "build upon each other". However that is a two way street. In bad times, pattern bargaining works in reverse as it is now. Go take a look. Our FO pay is better than most.

How do you feel about all the Crew Sched violations?? This has been going on unabated for years.

How about the draftings, extensions, etc?

I know it happens. However, I have never been JM. It has been 2 years since I have been extended. I can't recall the last time scheduling violated the contract with me.

What about the slipping maint. at ASA?? (just put a sticker on it and get'er done)??

The complete lack of respect for seniorty at ASA?

If the maint. isn't acceptable to me, I don't take it. That's what the fourth stripe is for. I've never been disciplined for refusing an aircraft. My seniority has been respected per the current contract.

ASADriver, you are either totally oblivious, or you are a member of management. There isn't a third option.

I am far from oblivious, and I am not management - just a reformed hell-raiser.

 

[Palerider957]

Correct. At Air Wisc. nap lines credit over 90 hours. A pilot might have a lower hourly rate, but they take home quite a bit more money per trip flown a similar trip at ASA.

Again, I'm willing to punish the company for all of their sins. I would much rather have an honest and good working relationship. Management has chosen the path, not pilots.

 

[ASADriver]

Also, strictly hourly pay rates hardly tell the story. It's all in the W-2.

How about trip rigs, duty rigs, minimum day. Only a management "leadership team member" would be so wrapped up in hourly rates.

How about it. Your absolutely correct. Show me a regional carrier with better cancellation pay than us. All those carriers that have lower FO rates also have less generous cancellation pay and most have less generous RS/JM pay. Go look for yourself. Oh yeah and most don't have rigs. Did you know that United gave up their rigs?

 

[ASADriver]

I am a 3rd year FO, and DAM PROUD OF IT

The only one in this discussion that is willing to take a pay cut is you.. By not supporting your MEC, you are willing to take whatever your ASA mangament is willing to give you!

My pay is already below average. It is your pay that is above average. Go take a look. Your the one who provided the numbers. Maybe my pay raise should come from your pay cut? That would get us both in line with the industry.

 

[av8tor4239]

I know it happens. However, I have never been JM. It has been 2 years since I have been extended. I can't recall the last time scheduling violated the contract with me.

My seniority has been respected per the current contract.

You show your true colors...

ALL ASA PILOTS THAT READ THIS BOARD: IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE? IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT TO REPRESENT?

ASA Driver you must realize that you are the minority of this pilot group...

I am sad that everything that we fight for and acomplish will benifit you, but I am happy that you finally show your true colors

SELFISH THOUGHTLESS LONER

 

[ASADriver]

You show your true colors...

ALL ASA PILOTS THAT READ THIS BOARD: IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE? IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT TO REPRESENT?

ASA Driver you must realize that you are the minority of this pilot group...

I am sad that everything that we fight for and acomplish will benifit you, but I am happy that you finally show your true colors

SELFISH THOUGHTLESS LONER

So why are you spending so much time on the minority? If the majority feel as you do, then it's a done deal right. Go ahead and put out the strike vote. Let's see. Of course even if the majority do vote to strike, there is no way we will get released. By the way, you said you were going to leave this debate back on post #26 of this thread. What happened junior?

 

[Palerider957]

ASA Driver:

Your experiences have been very different then mine. I have had to argue with maint. about the safety of an airplane with significant flap probs., almost to the point of a shouting match. I had to beg a mech. to look at the engine on a Brasilia that had failed....he didn't believe it, until his boss came out.

I have never been "disciplined" for enforcing the FAR's, but I have been badly punished. I remeber being extended for SEVEN more legs on my day off after I refused to fly over 16 hours...this is one of a hundred battles with sched. I have fought. (and I'm a line holder).

I have been extended MANY times, and JM'ed a few.

There is a financial value to good will. This fact is lost completely on ASA. I am not valued by the company, so I have little or no loyalty. I have had LIVID passengers at my cockpit (during boarding/deplaning)door demanding an explanation for their cruel treatment....what do I tell them? "Uh, there is a comment card in your Sky Magazine," then I glaze over in a semi-comatose worker-bee stare.

My primary concern is for the safety and comfort of the crew, anything else is a distant second.

 

[ASADriver]

ASA Driver:

Your experiences have been very different then mine. I have had to argue with maint. about the safety of an airplane with significant flap probs., almost to the point of a shouting match. I had to beg a mech. to look at the engine on a Brasilia that had failed....he didn't believe it, until his boss came out.

I have never been "disciplined" for enforcing the FAR's, but I have been badly punished. I remeber being extended for SEVEN more legs on my day off after I refused to fly over 16 hours...this is one of a hundred battles with sched. I have fought. (and I'm a line holder).

I have been extended MANY times, and JM'ed a few.

There is a financial value to good will. This fact is lost completely on ASA. I am not valued by the company, so I have little or no loyalty. I have had LIVID passengers at my cockpit (during boarding/deplaning)door demanding an explanation for their cruel treatment....what do I tell them? "Uh, there is a comment card in your Sky Magazine," then I glaze over in a semi-comatose worker-bee stare.

My primary concern is for the safety and comfort of the crew, anything else is a distant second.

Actually my experiences have been similar. I have had numerous cases of maintenance trying to just get me to take it. In every case, I just said no.

I too have had more than my share of irate passengers complain about the crappy service. My thoughts on this are maybe they should pay more. For what they're paying, they are actually getting a bargain.

Besides, neither of these issues will be settled by this contract. These are not contractual issues. They are industry issues that exist everywhere.

As far as extensions and JMs. I have been extended probably 5 times while I've been here. They have never JM'd me. I don't make important plans on a day I am working. Due to weather or maintenance, I might be late anyway.

 

[Palerider957]

I was aware that United lost their rigs, that was a sad day indeed.

Air Wisc., and Comair both have rigs. I'm not sure about Express Jet.

As for travel perks, yes we do have a good program, but I don't consider that a part of compensation--dam.n, planes are so full it's almost impossible to non-rev anyway.

I understand these are economically trying times, but I am not willing to sacrifice QOL..no sir. You mention the pay of these other airlines, how about the contract protections and COMPLIANCE.

Our only proctections are the FAR's, and as I said, I have been pushed to exceed those.

QOL is my absolute focus. If we can't get a signicant raise, then QOL had better be the cat's a$$.

Gentleman, I'm going to bed........

 

[av8tor4239]

ASA Driver,

You turn you head to the violations that are taking place..

Do you not care?

Does it not bother you that we have only TA'ed 1/3 of our NEW contract after 2.5 years?

NO ONE is talking STRIKE, NO ONE wants to strike.. A Strike is bad for everyone, BUT if that is what it takes, we have that as our option....

I would like to inform you that if we (pilots and mangement) are released to self help, management has the option to LOCK OUT, which will ruin your perfect little life! So a strike is not the only threat!

You do not support your MEC, you will not walk during informational picketting, you want me a 3rd year FO to take a pay cut to bring your pay up to average..... I have a question for you:

Would you cross the picket line if it came to that?

 

[Palerider957]

ASA Driver,

Would you cross the picket line if it came to that?

Good question....

 

[doh]

...Therefor I have accepted it.



Okay, total effing tool it is!

 

[captain caveman]

We definately have room to clean up our contract and increase our compensation some. We know what Comair conceeded to and that level is the least of which we can attain. Now if everyone could just get motivated and "get 'er done." I'm frustrated because I know what my potential is. I just wish everyone else would realize theirs.

 

[ifly4food]

EKU FLYER:

(1) ASA recieved two of the Comair airplanes during the strike. Allegedly these airplanes went back, but I think they just did the engine swap and kept them. I am going out on a limb, but ask one of the maint. guys if ship 884 is one of them. It has been a while and I don't memorize ship numbers.

Ship 883... flew it recently, painted over tail number and all. Rumor on the line is that it's a hangar queen what with all of the writeups. It must be one of the most written up planes in the fleet, it barely ever flies... wonder why?

 

[ifly4food]

ASA driver,

Are you on crack or just a total EFFING tool?

Maybe both?

Have you all considered that ASA Driver is probably a management pilot (chief pilot maybe?) who has been sent here to spread fear and discontent?

How about just ignoring the management shill, union hating, pilot bashing arrogant, self riteous, ***sharp pointy instrument*** and let him argue with himself? Then he can crawl back under his rock at the GO and go back to management ***buttocks*** kissing until the ***buttocks*** he's kissing gets fired and he loses his job (right, Chromer?)

 

[ifly4food]

ASAdriver:


I am no puppy, quite the contrary, I have been around the block a few times in several different jobs. I too am frustrated with the 21 year olds who haven't a clue about the real working world, yet pound their chest with empty bravado. They do not help the cause.

Having said that, I know we are not paid what we are worth, we are paid what we negotiate. Hence we must negotiate aggressively to realize any increase. We have allowed management at this company to treat us like un-housebroken monkeys, not worthy of our meager station in life.

They treat us this way, because we, as a group, have allowed them. What I want is a reasonable contract (at least Comairs perks and pay), and CONTRACT COMPLIANCE. Again, I simply won't vote for anything less.

As you have mellowed with age, I have become more radical. You are appreciative for an ungrateful master, that views you as a commodity of minimal value. I think that life is WAY too short to settle for substandard treatment.

What is the real sentement of the pilot group? Who knows. You are clearly on the status-quo end, and I am on the moltov cocktail end.

I am actively working on a lucrative side occupation, so I am willing to push DAL/ASA for all they are worth, whatever the consequences to my job, ASA, or DAL.

This is simply the ramblings of a regional pilot.

Preach on brother Palerider! Can I get an Amen?!!!!

 

[601Pilot]

Thanks, but I can't afford the pay cut. They make far less than I do. Here are some links for you junior.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_va.htm#b53-0000

Look at the transportation jobs. The highest mean average is airline pilots. Bus drivers mean average is $25,250.

http://www.busride.com/2004/11/Some_drivers_are_born_others_are_made.asp

Greyhound drivers start at $13 per hour. Coach bus driver pay according to this article is between $26,000 and $45,000.

Why would I take a paycut. You see this is the problem Av8tor. Our pay is above average. Our time off is above average. We can't afford to threaten to shut it down.

I'm glad we ASA pilots fall under the "Commercial pilot" instead of the "airline pilot" section.

 

[ohplease!]

What I don't understand is this: why is your (av8, etc.) opinion the right one? who decided your ideals are right for all of us? Why do you resort to childish name calling when someone has a difference of opinion? Are you really that immature?

There is nothing wrong with different people having different ideas about what is right for the ASA pilot group. You have your agenda and I have mine. I may agree with some things that you believe but, not all. I may agree with some things the MEC is doing, but not all. I may agree with some things ASA is doing or asking for, but NOT ALL! It is my obligation to my family, myself, and the company I agreed to work for (in that order) to do what I feel is in our best interest and do it to the best of my abilities. While I do care what happens to you and any other individual at this company (not just pilots), you all come in a very distant 4th.

If you a truly as unhappy as you claim to be, maybe you should seek someting that will make you happy. As you say, life is too short for you to go through it mad. Maybe this is not what you need to be doing with your life. Nobody can decide that but you. I will continue to be happy with my job here at ASA despite you and you band of unhappy, militant "bretheran". I know that there are many more like me (IMO, most of the pilots here). We will continue to have faith that our groups (ALPA/ASA) will be able to reach an agreement that will suit each of us and will allow ASA to continue to profit and prosper.

If a vote is taken to strike, I have no doubt that an extremely high % of our pilots will vote in favor. I WILL VOTE IN FAVOR. If it comes down to being released and walking out, I WILL WALK OUT BESIDE YOU. If I feel that we are walking out for reasonable requests, I WILL WALK IN CIRCLES WITH YOU. If I believe that we should not have walked out, I'll stay home.

The FACTS are we (ASA pilots) are paid above average, we do have better deals in some areas of our contract (not as good in some areas), we do have more time off than most and we do fly better equipment than most. That being said, I believe we should recieve some modest increases to our pay and work rules.

I don't think we should take any cuts to our current contract pay, Qol, etc. I know we need improvements to Scheduling. ASA is a profitable company, to the tune of over $40 million last year. Pretty good for the times we find ourselves in. I believe we (all ASA employees) should share in that profit. We (all ASA employees, INCLUDING management) have had a hand in that profitablility. We have done well in-spite of ourselves in some cases.

I have no doubt that you guy's (av8, pale, etc.) are 30%'s, if that. At some point you are going to have to accept that fact. Sooner or later (I hope sooner) ALPA and ASA are going to cut through the bs and come to terms somewhere near CA/XJT and we will vote it in. Until that time, I and most of the ASA crews will continue to move our planes (mostly) full of passengers from A to B safely and efficiently as professionals should. Things will not always go perfectly as planed but, we will role with it, make use of the common sense that got us our 4th stripe (and will get the 4th for our great FO's) and get the job done. If that means that I personally have to walk up stairs to get my release, toss a bag or two or even wash the dead bugs off my windshield...all things I have done many times over the years I've been here. We will do our part to keep ASA profitable and near the top of our slice of this industry.

The sooner you guys and our MEC come to the realization that this is not the time to go for broke, the sooner we'll come to that middle ground, get a decent contract signed and move on to better days.

This is MY OPINION and nothing else. You are entitled to yours.

 

[ASADriver]

ASA Driver,

You turn you head to the violations that are taking place..

Do you not care?

Does it not bother you that we have only TA'ed 1/3 of our NEW contract after 2.5 years?

Yes these things bother me, however much of the blame rests on our side also. The company will always try and violate any agreement we have. The company will always drag our negotiations to avoid paying out more money. Essentially that is their job and it is no different than most other carriers. It is our side that I am dissapointed in.

NO ONE is talking STRIKE, NO ONE wants to strike.. A Strike is bad for everyone, BUT if that is what it takes, we have that as our option....

A strike is the ONLY way you will get major improvements. So to get what you want, you have talk strike, and want to strike. Otherwise it is nothing but empty rhetoric. If you want to stike, you have to be willing to walk away FOREVER.

Not every situation is the same. I voted YES to strike last time. Today I would vote NO.

I would like to inform you that if we (pilots and mangement) are released to self help, management has the option to LOCK OUT, which will ruin your perfect little life! So a strike is not the only threat!

I am well aware of how the NRLA works. Yes they could lock us out, but highly unlikely since in all probability, a lockout or strike would send DAL in BK immediately.

You do not support your MEC, you will not walk during informational picketting, you want me a 3rd year FO to take a pay cut to bring your pay up to average..... I have a question for you:

Would you cross the picket line if it came to that?

I do not support many of the decisions made our MEC. I think informational picketing is a waist of time. I don't WANT you to take a pay cut to bring my pay up. I was simply pointing out to you, that our FO's pay is above industry average and that the only payrate at ASA that is below industry average is 50 seat captain pay.

I would not cross the picket line if it came to that. However I don't see it coming to that. I think some of you are living in a fantasy land if you think that we can get a release given the current circumstances.

 

[ASADriver]

What I don't understand is this: why is your (av8, etc.) opinion the right one? who decided your ideals are right for all of us? Why do you resort to childish name calling when someone has a difference of opinion? Are you really that immature?

There is nothing wrong with different people having different ideas about what is right for the ASA pilot group. You have your agenda and I have mine. I may agree with some things that you believe but, not all. I may agree with some things the MEC is doing, but not all. I may agree with some things ASA is doing or asking for, but NOT ALL! It is my obligation to my family, myself, and the company I agreed to work for (in that order) to do what I feel is in our best interest and do it to the best of my abilities. While I do care what happens to you and any other individual at this company (not just pilots), you all come in a very distant 4th.

If you a truly as unhappy as you claim to be, maybe you should seek someting that will make you happy. As you say, life is too short for you to go through it mad. Maybe this is not what you need to be doing with your life. Nobody can decide that but you. I will continue to be happy with my job here at ASA despite you and you band of unhappy, militant "bretheran". I know that there are many more like me (IMO, most of the pilots here). We will continue to have faith that our groups (ALPA/ASA) will be able to reach an agreement that will suit each of us and will allow ASA to continue to profit and prosper.

If a vote is taken to strike, I have no doubt that an extremely high % of our pilots will vote in favor. I WILL VOTE IN FAVOR. If it comes down to being released and walking out, I WILL WALK OUT BESIDE YOU. If I feel that we are walking out for reasonable requests, I WILL WALK IN CIRCLES WITH YOU. If I believe that we should not have walked out, I'll stay home.

The FACTS are we (ASA pilots) are paid above average, we do have better deals in some areas of our contract (not as good in some areas), we do have more time off than most and we do fly better equipment than most. That being said, I believe we should recieve some modest increases to our pay and work rules.

I don't think we should take any cuts to our current contract pay, Qol, etc. I know we need improvements to Scheduling. ASA is a profitable company, to the tune of over $40 million last year. Pretty good for the times we find ourselves in. I believe we (all ASA employees) should share in that profit. We (all ASA employees, INCLUDING management) have had a hand in that profitablility. We have done well in-spite of ourselves in some cases.

I have no doubt that you guy's (av8, pale, etc.) are 30%'s, if that. At some point you are going to have to accept that fact. Sooner or later (I hope sooner) ALPA and ASA are going to cut through the bs and come to terms somewhere near CA/XJT and we will vote it in. Until that time, I and most of the ASA crews will continue to move our planes (mostly) full of passengers from A to B safely and efficiently as professionals should. Things will not always go perfectly as planed but, we will role with it, make use of the common sense that got us our 4th stripe (and will get the 4th for our great FO's) and get the job done. If that means that I personally have to walk up stairs to get my release, toss a bag or two or even wash the dead bugs off my windshield...all things I have done many times over the years I've been here. We will do our part to keep ASA profitable and near the top of our slice of this industry.

The sooner you guys and our MEC come to the realization that this is not the time to go for broke, the sooner we'll come to that middle ground, get a decent contract signed and move on to better days.

This is MY OPINION and nothing else. You are entitled to yours.

Well said Ohplease. Just because you disagree, doesn't make you a "management stooge". Can't members of a group disagree without being accused of not being part of the group?

 

[601Pilot]

I have no doubt that you guy's (av8, pale, etc.) are 30%'s, if that. At some point you are going to have to accept that fact. Sooner or later (I hope sooner) ALPA and ASA are going to cut through the bs and come to terms somewhere near CA/XJT and we will vote it in. Until that time, I and most of the ASA crews will continue to move our planes (mostly) full of passengers from A to B safely and efficiently as professionals should. Things will not always go perfectly as planed but, we will role with it, make use of the common sense that got us our 4th stripe (and will get the 4th for our great FO's) and get the job done. If that means that I personally have to walk up stairs to get my release, toss a bag or two or even wash the dead bugs off my windshield...all things I have done many times over the years I've been here. We will do our part to keep ASA profitable and near the top of our slice of this industry.

The sooner you guys and our MEC come to the realization that this is not the time to go for broke, the sooner we'll come to that middle ground, get a decent contract signed and move on to better days.

This is MY OPINION and nothing else. You are entitled to yours.

You can have your own opinion and keep doing all the things to help ASA if you
wish. I, on the other hand, will not be throwing bags, calling for any supplies
(more than once), single-engine taxiing, etc. to help ASA until we have a new
contract. The only notice Skip and the boys seem to take is if we slip in our
on-time performance. If I stop doing other peoples work, then that performance
will definitely drop to around the 50% levels. I do believe I am in
the majority, if only 51%, of our pilot group. This is my opinion, so take it for
all it's worth.