ASA Pilots.. Is this what you are happy with?

[~~~^~~~]

EKU FLYER:

(1) ASA recieved two of the Comair airplanes during the strike. Allegedly these airplanes went back, but I think they just did the engine swap and kept them. I am going out on a limb, but ask one of the maint. guys if ship 884 is one of them. It has been a while and I don't memorize ship numbers.

(2) Delta had bid restricted second officers who did not meet Delta's pilot mins for first officers. Delta made an arrangement for these guys to train and fly at ASA / Comair while keeping their Delta seniority numbers. The Letter of Agreement outlining this arrangement was signed around October of 2000. If you have access to the old Delta pilot contracts, you should be able to find it. Or if you are really curious, I can look it up and point you to it.

 

[1080+/-2]

All I can come up with is that in aviation, wages and benefits seem like they're at an all-time low all around. There are MANY reasons, not the least of which is the fact that there are people willing to do your job, whatever that job may be, for less than you will. It is a fickle industry, subject to the whim of ....well, anyone. As an industry, it's kind of in the toilet right now. You're not the only one in that particular situation, as you know. There are other industries in which to seek employment, or maybe you could pursue the military pilot route? I hope things work out for you and all of the other aviation professionals out there. I do only see it getting worse, though. 3rd party contract maintenance, greedy corporate structure, greedy pilots, greedy FAs, greedy mechanics, orbitz.com. I'm not implying that everyone in these groups is greedy, but that percentage of population does enough damage to the industry as a whole.
Good luck to all, and thank you for not flaming my humble opinion!

 

[EMB170Pilot]

all this bitching and what 30 people showed up to picket.


Think of it like the 2004 voting elections....

If you did not vote in the 2004 elections, you cannot complain about anything because you do not seserve to have a voice.

If you didnt picket with the other ASA pilots that did, SHUT YOUR **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** PIE HOLE!

 

[FL000]

all this bitching and what 30 people showed up to picket.


Think of it like the 2004 voting elections....

If you did not vote in the 2004 elections, you cannot complain about anything because you do not seserve to have a voice.

If you didnt picket with the other ASA pilots that did, SHUT YOUR **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** PIE HOLE!

My 1.9% gives me the right to open my pie hole...and I vote on everything that is presented to us.

 

[doh]

Absolutely, 1.9% gives you the right to bitch! But 30 people tells management they have the right to screw you!

 

[FishandFly]

all this bitching and what 30 people showed up to picket.


Think of it like the 2004 voting elections....

If you did not vote in the 2004 elections, you cannot complain about anything because you do not seserve to have a voice.

If you didnt picket with the other ASA pilots that did, SHUT YOUR **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** PIE HOLE!

You bring up an excellent point.

Apparently around 100 of our pilots feel differently or more strongly about some of these issues than the rest of us.

Why isn't there some sort of forum or polling system that would allow the opinions of the pilot group as a whole to be compiled. This would have the ability to generate interest in issues that the majority of us are actually concerned with while dumping issues that are not as important to the group as a whole.

The only setback to this is that there are so many new guys and gals making mcdonalds money in there first year, the elders may have to give up some extra cash so that they can come off wellfare.

---

I'm suggesting that the problem is not that the pilots don't care, but that there is a large disconnect between what the union is shooting for and what the population wants.

 

[ekuflyer]

EKU FLYER:

(1) ASA recieved two of the Comair airplanes during the strike. Allegedly these airplanes went back, but I think they just did the engine swap and kept them. I am going out on a limb, but ask one of the maint. guys if ship 884 is one of them. It has been a while and I don't memorize ship numbers.

I'm pretty sure those went back after the strike. They were 50 seaters the best i remember. 884=40 seats

 

[ASADriver]

Then I have people telling me that we need to accept status quo or a zero net gain contract.... 30 or 40 people out of 1700 showing up for informational picketing

Maybe that should tell you something av8tor. Are you part of the vocal minority or the silent majority?

 

[ASADriver]

We can't improve section 1 of our contract, because we own zero flying. CMR tried and failed in their negotiations several years ago, for the same reason. You can wish that "underbid" others for growth, but there is still nothing to keep DAL from taking our equipment away and sending it elsewhere. And to be more precise, most people are more concerned about section 13, as that's where the QOL issues lie.

First of all, I don't agree with the "we own zero flying". If that is the case, then why negotiate for any improvements to the contract? Without job security, the rest of the contract is worthless.

Second, CMR failed because the strike didn't work when fellow ALPA members (ASA and DAL) flew CMR passengers. In fact we flew them in CMR airplanes during their strike. This was a fatal blow to ALPA's collective bargaining strength and many of you fail to realize it.

I'm amazed that you say "most people are more concerned about section 13" and "there is still nothing to keep DAL from taking our equipment and sending it elsewhere". Do you not understand that section 13 is meaningless as long as Delta can take the equipment and send it elsewhere.

Big picture folks. Let's not focus on a nose gear light while we allow the plane to fly into the everglades.

 

[ASADriver]

I think I am done with you all..
I know that you will not support the MEC or the CNC in negotiating this contract.. I have pitty on you and hope you get everything you want in life..

Giving up so easily? I will support the MEC and the CNC when they see the big picture. I have everything I want in life. I have my health, family, friends, AND A GOOD JOB in a troubled industry.

 

[av8tor4239]

Giving up so easily? I will support the MEC and the CNC when they see the big picture. I have everything I want in life. I have my health, family, friends, AND A GOOD JOB in a troubled industry.

I am back.. You have sucessfully made my blood boil again!!!!

Why do you think that "GOOD JOB" is GOOD?

I will tell you

That "GOOD JOB" is good because people before you have sacrificed everthing (including job security). In order to keep it good you/we have to be willing to sacrifice everything.. If we as a pilot group are not willing to sacrifice everything (informational picketing, leagal job actions, STRIKE) that "GOOD JOB" will be worthless!!!!

Without job security, the rest of the contract is worthless.

Without the rest of the contract, job security is worthless.. you see my point..., Why do you want to secure a worthless job? Why not support contract negotiations and fight for jobs security?



NEXT


What is the point of haveing SCOPE, and all that job security if your quality of life and your pay is completley worthless. Why are you willing to give up what we already have for SCOPE and Job Security..

You should know as well as I do that Job Security and Airlines are like Apples and Oranges.. They just dont jive. (example: 9/11, recession of the early 80's and 90's, things out of our control).

 

[av8tor4239]

...............

 

[601Pilot]

hahaha!

Giving up so easily? I will support the MEC and the CNC when they see the big picture. I have everything I want in life. I have my health, family, friends, AND A GOOD JOB in a troubled industry.

Good job? hahahaha! This must be your first job, besides flight instructing, if you
think this is a good job.

Another clueless person here at ASA.

 

[Palerider957]

If DAL wants to take our equipment and cast it into the winds, so be it. I am NOT GOING TO LIVE ON MY KNEES. I would rather go down swinging.

I want an industry leading contract, and I won't settle for anything less.

ASA Driver, you remind me of the most senior pilots on our list. Whenever you start to talk about the contract, they recant ABSURD days of the bandit....then they talk about how good we have it now.

I would not have done this job under those circumstances, and I won't settle for anything but a solid and fair contract, with MAJOR improvements in QOL and scheduling.

Having said that, I'm only one of 1700 pilots.

 

[doh]

ASA driver,

Are you on crack or just a total EFFING tool?

 

[ASADriver]

Why do you think that "GOOD JOB" is GOOD?

I will tell you

That "GOOD JOB" is good because people before you have sacrificed everthing (including job security). In order to keep it good you/we have to be willing to sacrifice everything.. If we as a pilot group are not willing to sacrifice everything (informational picketing, leagal job actions, STRIKE) that "GOOD JOB" will be worthless!!!!


Without the rest of the contract, job security is worthless.. you see my point..., Why do you want to secure a worthless job? Why not support contract negotiations and fight for jobs security?



NEXT


What is the point of haveing SCOPE, and all that job security if your quality of life and your pay is completley worthless. Why are you willing to give up what we already have for SCOPE and Job Security..

You should know as well as I do that Job Security and Airlines are like Apples and Oranges.. They just dont jive. (example: 9/11, recession of the early 80's and 90's, things out of our control).

Av8tor,
You are confusing the control ALPA HAD with the current free for all. Yes ALPA was able to artificially inflate pay and benefits in the PAST. They gave up that power by allowing management to put the work out for bid. That is the new reality. This is a different career than the one I was planning on. The union has lost it's leverage. Either regain the leverage or stop your whining and accept it. Those are your options.

 

[ASADriver]

Good job? hahahaha! This must be your first job, besides flight instructing, if you
think this is a good job.

Another clueless person here at ASA.

No, it's not my first job. It is the best job I've had. It's also better than when I hired on. I have many friends who have "real jobs" who are envious of the time off I have. Could it be better? Yes. But given our lack of leverage, I am not willing to give it up for some mythical "industry leading contract".

 

[ASADriver]

If DAL wants to take our equipment and cast it into the winds, so be it. I am NOT GOING TO LIVE ON MY KNEES. I would rather go down swinging.

I don't live on my knees. I live better than most people I know. I have more time off than any of my friends in the "real world". They remind me of it all the time.

I want an industry leading contract, and I won't settle for anything less.

The way things are going, the mythical "industry leading contract" will be our current contract. If you haven't noticed, everyone else is moving backwards. What will you do when our current contract is "industry leading"?

ASA Driver, you remind me of the most senior pilots on our list. Whenever you start to talk about the contract, they recant ABSURD days of the bandit....then they talk about how good we have it now.

Well, they're right. It is much better now than it was then and the industry is in much worse shape than it was then. Think about that for a minute. The industry is in worse shape and the pay and QOL is better. Not bad if you ask me.

I would not have done this job under those circumstances, and I won't settle for anything but a solid and fair contract, with MAJOR improvements in QOL and scheduling.
Having said that, I'm only one of 1700 pilots.

There lies the rub Palerider. You are only one of 1700 pilots. The problem is that the farther up you move in the business, the harder it is to start over again. Why do we have to start all over again when we change employers? As long as it remains that way, I am not willing to throw it all away.

 

[ASADriver]

ASA driver,

Are you on crack or just a total EFFING tool?

This coming from a CMR pilot? Thump that chest 39%er. In the end, 61% of your group got tired of fighting a losing battle. I used to be a "39%er" myself. However just like your "61%ers", I am tired of fighting a losing battle with a neutered country club association that masquerades as a union.

Palerider, doh, and av8tor. I understand your arguments. They sound like me several years ago. Maybe it is a little age and little dose of reality however that has made me realize that the "chest thumping" is nothing more than that. We can't back it up with anything. Therefor I have accepted it.

 

[Plug]

No, it's not my first job. It is the best job I've had. It's also better than when I hired on. I have many friends who have "real jobs" who are envious of the time off I have. Could it be better? Yes. But given our lack of leverage, I am not willing to give it up for some mythical "industry leading contract".

Your just the person management is counting on.

You're right this is a good job, but this company needs to realize that we aren't slaves and that we work to live not live to work.

 

[Sinca3]

You sound like a typical ASA employee......eg. Departure Coordinator
What is the difference between now and when things really did matter to you? Because of people like you giving up, the industry and the union became what it is today!
Enjoy your career

 

[ASADriver]

Your just the person management is counting on.

You're right this is a good job, but this company needs to realize that we aren't slaves and that we work to live not live to work.

How can you compare this job to slavery? If this is "slavery", then why did you take the position. You must be an idiot to voluntarily become a "slave". Were you forced to become this "slave"? Are you being forced to stay a "slave". How can ALPA stop this "slavery"?

This is exactly the argument that has turned me off to ALPA. Where else do people crawl over each other to get a job, then claim they are "slaves" after they "begged, borrowed and stole" to get there. On top of that, they actually believe they have leverage when their union "brothers" are waiting in the shadows to take their place.

Absolutely amazing!

 

[ASADriver]

What is the difference between now and when things really did matter to you?

Simple Sinca3. ALPA lost it's leverage. An independent contractor can't force anything. Independent contractors have to be competitive or they lose the work.

Because of people like you giving up, the industry and the union became what it is today!
Enjoy your career

A union is only as strong as it's weakest link. We don't really have a union. Thank you, I will enjoy it.

 

[av8tor4239]

ASA Driver,

FIRST:

Please for the sake of all that is good put your posts into one box...


NEXT

Having said that, I'm only one of 1700 pilots

You are not alone.., there are many ASA pilots that are sick of the BS like you and me, Plug, ATRDRIVER and many others that are not vocal on this board that will make this work!

MANAGMENT MUST BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR POOR DECISIONS! WE MUST TELL THEM LOUD AND CLEAR THEY CAN NOT TAKE IT OUT OF OUR CONTRACTS ANY MORE.

As ASA pilots we are leading the pack with open section 6 negotiations. If we conceed to anything we already have for what ever reason we have failed.. (see the first post of this thread)!

In my opinion, every one of us is a Pilot 2 Pilot representive (pm me and I will personally call you with every P2P message I get), and needs to communicate to your fellow crewmembers the importance of our new contract, not just for our own quality of life, but for the sanctity of our profession... The ball is in our court, we need to run with it..

ASA Driver, you need to check out this link:

http://www.greyhound.com/company/careers.shtml

 

[Palerider957]

ASAdriver:


I am no puppy, quite the contrary, I have been around the block a few times in several different jobs. I too am frustrated with the 21 year olds who haven't a clue about the real working world, yet pound their chest with empty bravado. They do not help the cause.

Having said that, I know we are not paid what we are worth, we are paid what we negotiate. Hence we must negotiate aggressively to realize any increase. We have allowed management at this company to treat us like un-housebroken monkeys, not worthy of our meager station in life.

They treat us this way, because we, as a group, have allowed them. What I want is a reasonable contract (at least Comairs perks and pay), and CONTRACT COMPLIANCE. Again, I simply won't vote for anything less.

As you have mellowed with age, I have become more radical. You are appreciative for an ungrateful master, that views you as a commodity of minimal value. I think that life is WAY too short to settle for substandard treatment.

What is the real sentement of the pilot group? Who knows. You are clearly on the status-quo end, and I am on the moltov cocktail end.

I am actively working on a lucrative side occupation, so I am willing to push DAL/ASA for all they are worth, whatever the consequences to my job, ASA, or DAL.

This is simply the ramblings of a regional pilot.

 

[av8tor4239]

What is the real sentement of the pilot group? Who knows. You are clearly on the status-quo end, and I am on the moltov cocktail end.

I am actively working on a lucrative side occupation, so I am willing to push DAL/ASA for all they are worth, whatever the consequences to my job, ASA, or DAL.

TRUTH!

Even without a side occupation I am willing to push DAL/ASA for all they are worth, whatever the consequences to my job, ASA or DAL!

I will never sellout while management lines their pockets, and I hope the pilot group I joined feels the same way!

 

[ASADriver]

ASA Driver,
ASA Driver, you need to check out this link:

http://www.greyhound.com/company/careers.shtml

Thanks, but I can't afford the pay cut. They make far less than I do. Here are some links for you junior.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_va.htm#b53-0000

Look at the transportation jobs. The highest mean average is airline pilots. Bus drivers mean average is $25,250.

http://www.busride.com/2004/11/Some_drivers_are_born_others_are_made.asp

Greyhound drivers start at $13 per hour. Coach bus driver pay according to this article is between $26,000 and $45,000.

Why would I take a paycut. You see this is the problem Av8tor. Our pay is above average. Our time off is above average. We can't afford to threaten to shut it down.

 

[ASADriver]

ASAdriver:


I am no puppy, quite the contrary, I have been around the block a few times in several different jobs. I too am frustrated with the 21 year olds who haven't a clue about the real working world, yet pound their chest with empty bravado. They do not help the cause.

Having said that, I know we are not paid what we are worth, we are paid what we negotiate. Hence we must negotiate aggressively to realize any increase. We have allowed management at this company to treat us like un-housebroken monkeys, not worthy of our meager station in life.

They treat us this way, because we, as a group, have allowed them. What I want is a reasonable contract (at least Comairs perks and pay), and CONTRACT COMPLIANCE. Again, I simply won't vote for anything less.

As you have mellowed with age, I have become more radical. You are appreciative for an ungrateful master, that views you as a commodity of minimal value. I think that life is WAY too short to settle for substandard treatment.

What is the real sentement of the pilot group? Who knows. You are clearly on the status-quo end, and I am on the moltov cocktail end.

I am actively working on a lucrative side occupation, so I am willing to push DAL/ASA for all they are worth, whatever the consequences to my job, ASA, or DAL.

This is simply the ramblings of a regional pilot.

Palerider,
Show me where we are paid below average. Back your argument up with some facts. See my above post to Av8tor. We are above average in pay and in time off.

 

[av8tor4239]

Thanks, but I can't afford the pay cut. They make far less than I do. Here are some links for you junior.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_va.htm#b53-0000

Look at the transportation jobs. The highest mean average is airline pilots. Bus drivers mean average is $25,250.

http://www.busride.com/2004/11/Some_drivers_are_born_others_are_made.asp

Greyhound drivers start at $13 per hour. Coach bus driver pay according to this article is between $26,000 and $45,000.

Why would I take a paycut. You see this is the problem Av8tor. Our pay is above average. Our time off is above average. We can't afford to threaten to shut it down.

You like that pay dont you...

You like that time off dont you..

You think that all came for free? IT DID NOT

If all you want to do is move people around the country you do need to go to www.greyhound.com

You call me "Junior", but with your attitude and narrow minded selfishness being Junior should be the least of your worries!

 

[ASADriver]

If all you want to do is move people around the country you do need to go to www.greyhound.com

You call me "Junior", but with your attitude and narrow minded selfishness being Junior should be the least of your worries!

Listen Junior, I told you I can't afford the paycut to go to Greyhound. As far as my "narrow minded selfishness", that's the ALPA way. Every man for themselve. We are too divided to come together.