ASA PBS is.......

[LazyLightnin']

Big difference already between XJT and ASA already, we hardly have any open time that is made available because they save it for reserves. What is available is rarely able to be swapped for because red arrow days prohibit it, and we have to get it approved to swap in a 12 hour window. If that program applies to XJT after the merge, you won't be so excited about open time any longer, either.

Disagree. I polish a turd of a line every month by swapping out almost every single four-day with something else in open time.

Open time is your friend. Unless you're the company.

 

[dojetdriver]

In my example the pay credit was 66hrs

Thanks, so just to clarify, the guy was gonna get paid for 75 hrs but he dropped some flying off his schedule to 66?

What if you got what you wanted at the start? There will still be open time. EVERY airline that has PBS still has some open time, just not the crazy amount that we have now.

And what if a pilot's juniority and PBS he STILL doesn't get what he wants, and there's NO open time of trade for?

Now cue the argument "well, he's junior so tough titties". But that cancels out the argument you posted above.

The system that Nevets and I currently work under, and senior pilot can bid the line he wants, and get it. The junior pilot may not get the line he wants, but with the open time there's enough for him to change that.

 

[johnpeace]

Open time is your friend. Unless you're the company.

Or the reserve guy who has to cover the trips nobody else wants...with two hours notice.

 

[Nevets]

Big difference already between XJT and ASA already, we hardly have any open time that is made available because they save it for reserves. What is available is rarely able to be swapped for because red arrow days prohibit it, and we have to get it approved to swap in a 12 hour window. If that program applies to XJT after the merge, you won't be so excited about open time any longer, either.

You assume the combined company will have this "red arrows" thing and this "12 hour window." If that program applies to XJT after the merge, I would guess many XJT pilots will be voting no. But just a guess from a line pilot.

Or the reserve guy who has to cover the trips nobody else wants...with two hours notice.

At XJT, reserves have the ability to list themselves as will call or no preference. If you are will call, you get called first. Presumably the ones who don't list themselves as will call rather not fly and vice versa. Also, reserves have what is called an aggressive pickup window in which they can pick up a trip in open time. Both of these contract provisions makes it more likely that a reserve that doesn't want to fly, doesn't.

 

[79%N1]

You assume the combined company will have this "red arrows" thing and this "12 hour window." If that program applies to XJT after the merge, I would guess many XJT pilots will be voting no. But just a guess from a line pilot.

Good point. I just imagine if ASA management was willing for us to work under these provisions, we would have them now also. But, they didn't want to relinquish that much control. Of course, everything is negotiated and I imagine we gave up this type of system to gain other things.

At XJT, reserves have the ability to list themselves as will call or no preference. If you are will call, you get called first. Presumably the ones who don't list themselves as will call rather not fly and vice versa. Also, reserves have what is called an aggressive pickup window in which they can pick up a trip in open time. Both of these contract provisions makes it more likely that a reserve that doesn't want to fly, doesn't.

We have a similar system here, call me first. However, the company can skip a call me first if he is first in the bucket and the assingment would take him/her over 75 hrs. Assignments really are given out in order of block hours to try to keep everyone even. Ergo, call me first just gets you to 75 hrs fastest. We, however, cannot pick up open time as reserves at ASA.

Side note. You guys at XJT must have a TREMENDOUS AMOUNT of open time over there! Seems like every guy drops all his trips on his bid award and all pick up open time. I wonder why they don't build more lines with all that open time.

 

[dojetdriver]

Side note. You guys at XJT must have a TREMENDOUS AMOUNT of open time over there! Seems like every guy drops all his trips on his bid award and all pick up open time. I wonder why they don't build more lines with all that open time.

Well, for now in IAH, total CA open time between now and Dec. 31st shows 59 total open pairings, ORD is 32, EWR is 22, CLE is 18. Bear in mind, less than half the month left. During the initial line improvement window, it's in the hundreds.

Sure, they could build more lines, but there's a thing called the line divisor that has to be complied with, as well as the block hours that determine how many lines are built.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Well, for now in IAH, total CA open time between now and Dec. 31st shows 59 total open pairings, ORD is 32, EWR is 22, CLE is 18. Bear in mind, less than half the month left. During the initial line improvement window, it's in the hundreds.

Sure, they could build more lines, but there's a thing called the line divisor that has to be complied with, as well as the block hours that determine how many lines are built.

IMPERATIVE that we insist on a mix of types of trips, and a limitation on how many reserve lines are built.

Currently we have NOTHING that prohibits the company from building 10 hard lines and putting the remainder of the pilot group on reserve.
We are currently running about 30% on 200 reserves. We STILL don't have enough reserves. They call everybody in for a round trip and extend, extend, extend....

 

[dojetdriver]

IMPERATIVE that we insist on a mix of types of trips, and a limitation on how many reserve lines are built.

Currently we have NOTHING that prohibits the company from building 10 hard lines and putting the remainder of the pilot group on reserve.
We are currently running about 30% on 200 reserves. We STILL don't have enough reserves. They call everybody in for a round trip and extend, extend, extend....

XJT currently has a min reserve level, but no maximum either. In ORD for a while we had about 45% of the pilots on reserve but now it's back down. Total BS. But dare I say, the operation has become loser to being "properly staffed" as the amount of reasignments and rolled days has lessened. At least when the weather is good and there's no reason for it anyway.

 

[Speedtape]

IMPERATIVE that we insist on a mix of types of trips, and a limitation on how many reserve lines are built.
There is already a mix of trips. Even if the pilots had complete control, you would find that one size does not fit all. There should never be a limitation on the number of Reserve lines. The need can change month to month, under our current system. If there are not Reserves to cover the trips, and you hold a Regular line, do you want to get extended at the end of your trip or junior-manned on you day off. Limit the Reserves, it is guaranteed to happen.

Currently we have NOTHING that prohibits the company from building 10 hard lines and putting the remainder of the pilot group on reserve.
No contracual limit exists, because there is no reason. Financially, it would be a disaster for them to schedule like you suggest. Ideally, it would be most advantageous for them to cover the flying, building as many lines as possible to guarantee or greater. That is impossible, but PBS will give them the next best thing. Ideally, Reserves would not be necessary at all if no one ever called in sick, needed leaves, quit, and there were no IROPS. But, that is not reality. Reserves are needed for those events to guarantee schedule integrity (high completion factor). Under PBS, less Reserves will be needed because those are the events that they will be used for. Open time will be near to none, thus requiring less staffing for Reserves.
We are currently running about 30% on 200 reserves. We STILL don't have enough reserves. They call everybody in for a round trip and extend, extend, extend....

The percentage changes every month, under current processes. I am not sure if it is 30%, but certainly in the mid 20's. December will always have the highest Reserves, even with PBS, because sick calls go through the roof, due to flu season and people who are adverse to working on holidays. 30% Reserves on the CR2/ATL would be about 120 Captains and 120 F/O's. Is it really that high?

 

[centralpilot]

Thanks, so just to clarify, the guy was gonna get paid for 75 hrs but he dropped some flying off his schedule to 66?

If using the vacation low option, the target line value is 75 hours. However, the bottom of the credit window is 65 hours. If the system gets to the end of your bid sheet and hasn't hit 75 hours, but is above the minimum 65, your schedule is complete and you still get paid the minimum 75 hours of pay. The trick is to build your bid sheet so that you get awarded just enough credit to reach the bottom of the window (65 hrs - 28 hrs vacation = 37 hours), but conflicts prevent the system from awarding anything else before the end of the bid sheet. You've got to use a second bid sheet to make sure "all remaining pairings" isn't on the first one.

 

[LazyLightnin']

Or the reserve guy who has to cover the trips nobody else wants...with two hours notice.

Take that up with SH, JP, and CT. It's not the line bidding system's fault. You've been brainwashed to crave PBS.

 

[Nevets]

We have a similar system here, call me first. However, the company can skip a call me first if he is first in the bucket and the assingment would take him/her over 75 hrs. Assignments really are given out in order of block hours to try to keep everyone even. Ergo, call me first just gets you to 75 hrs fastest. We, however, cannot pick up open time as reserves at ASA.

At XJT the call out priority is:
FBO - Flown by operations
RX - modified pairing
RA - reserve day due to transition conflict or part of relief or reduced flying line
Long Call Reserve Will Call
Long Call Reserve No Preference
Short Call Reserve Will Call
Short Call Reserve No Preference

Its rare they call you if you are FBO, RX, or RA. They do skip you if you reached a certain amount of hours. I think its 60 but I'm not sure it may be 75.

Side note. You guys at XJT must have a TREMENDOUS AMOUNT of open time over there! Seems like every guy drops all his trips on his bid award and all pick up open time. I wonder why they don't build more lines with all that open time.

There is a lot of open time during the initial line improvement window due to vacation trip touching, training, transition conflicts, FAR violations, etc. You can drop to 60 hours. There is not nearly as much open time during the secondary line improvement window because most of the trips left over in the initial are used to create relief lines. You can only drop in the secondary if there is coverage.

 

[dojetdriver]

They do skip you if you reached a certain amount of hours. I think its 60 but I'm not sure it may be 75.

Reserve leveling bypass is 60.

There is a lot of open time during the initial line improvement window due to vacation trip touching, training, transition conflicts, FAR violations, etc. You can drop to 60 hours.

On a pure drop, but you can advertise and go below 60 can't you? Never done it myself, but seems I've heard of guys doing it.

Also remember, the "trading floor" has been reduced at times, when we had the RFL's is when I remember it last.

 

[79%N1]

There is no bypassing a reserve trip at ASA. In fact, management said they would allow us to strike over that kind of provision. That is the kind of mentality you guys will be dealing with over here. I'm sure they are going to press real hard to get some of those goodies out of your group when we join. I'm personally all for having them.

 

[crj567]

IMPERATIVE that we insist on a mix of types of trips, and a limitation on how many reserve lines are built.

Currently we have NOTHING that prohibits the company from building 10 hard lines and putting the remainder of the pilot group on reserve.
We are currently running about 30% on 200 reserves. We STILL don't have enough reserves. They call everybody in for a round trip and extend, extend, extend....

Very good points! This agreement leaves the door wide open to do many such things.

 

[COOPERVANE]

There is no bypassing a reserve trip at ASA. In fact, management said they would allow us to strike over that kind of provision. That is the kind of mentality you guys will be dealing with over here. I'm sure they are going to press real hard to get some of those goodies out of your group when we join. I'm personally all for having them.

Why are they sooooo against it? I know in the past they said it was because they didn't want to call 100 pilots to cover one trip, but if I had a right to refuse I would answer my phone when they called.

Also, our new super-duper auto dialer could be used. How does XJET sched department handle reserve contact with bypass rights?

 

[Nevets]

Why are they sooooo against it? I know in the past they said it was because they didn't want to call 100 pilots to cover one trip, but if I had a right to refuse I would answer my phone when they called.

Also, our new super-duper auto dialer could be used. How does XJET sched department handle reserve contact with bypass rights?

If you are under 60 hours, they simply bypass you and dont call you.

 

[dojetdriver]

There is no bypassing a reserve trip at ASA. In fact, management said they would allow us to strike over that kind of provision. That is the kind of mentality you guys will be dealing with over here. I'm sure they are going to press real hard to get some of those goodies out of your group when we join. I'm personally all for having them.

Just to clarify, there is no "bypass" option for reserve pilots at XJT. We have "will fly" and "no preference".

To expand on what Nevets said, say the bypass level is 60 hrs. Pilot A and pilot B are both in the same days available bucket. Pilot A has 65 hrs credit for the month, pilot B has 40. Pilot A may be higher in the stack, but will be bypassed since he's above the bypass level and pilot B will get called for the trip.

Also, pilot A will be prevented from using the reserve aggressive pickup window unless all the other pilots are above the reserve leveling bypass limit.

How does XJET sched department handle reserve contact with bypass rights?

See the above. Now that's not to say that sometimes scheduling doesn't pooch the screw and assign trips out of order.

 

[79%N1]

Gotcha.

And, I don't know why they are against a bypass the trip system where the mOst senior reserve gets called first and on down the list, but when I suggest it for this joint contract I was told no way because they tried to get this last time and were told we could go ahead and strike over that issue, but no way they were giving it to us. It is the most fair, but who cares about that!

 

[goahead]

Why is it taking so long for the awards to be posted?????
Flica usually takes about an hour tops for it to be done and this PBS crap is taking like a week and half to award trips. Sure it's all the alpa reps looking at which way works best for them before publishing it................

 

[johnpeace]

And, I don't know why they are against a bypass the trip system where the mOst senior reserve gets called first and on down the list

Because it would take away a tool the company has for keeping each reserve as close as they can to a 75 hour credit month.

They seem really myopic about that issue and having all the contract language they can to allow them to do just that. I can't believe it's that important a cost control method for them to use...but someone over there sure has the idea that they've struck cost-savings paydirt with the 75.0 hr credit month for reserve pilots.

 

[sweptback]

Why is it taking so long for the awards to be posted?????
Flica usually takes about an hour tops for it to be done and this PBS crap is taking like a week and half to award trips. Sure it's all the alpa reps looking at which way works best for them before publishing it................

Because they have the ability to run the software many different times, each time tweaking the settings to get a more favorable result.

I'm sure eventually they'll get it down to the point where it may only take a few hours, but they're just learning it like we are, so how about a little patience?

 

[goahead]

Because they have the ability to run the software many different times, each time tweaking the settings to get a more favorable result.

I'm sure eventually they'll get it down to the point where it may only take a few hours, but they're just learning it like we are, so how about a little patience?

Nope had enough time, like a year, if it's not good to go then don't use it. I'm sure they were having a nice paid for lunch while all getting six hours of pay to talk about all the gifts they bought for their families.

 

[crj567]

Nope had enough time, like a year, if it's not good to go then don't use it. I'm sure they were having a nice paid for lunch while all getting six hours of pay to talk about all the gifts they bought for their families.

Yep-
We are all about to pay for that one. With the current distribution of trips, this will be the worst mess we can imagine. Let's pray for some two days and day lines for the system to fill in the gaps with for Feb. It is just not possible to build a good schedule with so many crap 4 days and ball-buster 3 days.

-I am anxiously awaiting all the cheerleaders to pipe up when this thing kicks in during a month with crap 4 days from top to bottom.

-Maybe by some miracle, the company will build nice trips which will work well in tis system. There is no reason to expect they will, but that is our only hope.

 

[Nevets]

How long have you been doing practice bids? When were you guys supposed to go live with this originally? Why has it been postponed? When are you supposed to go live with it now?

 

[79%N1]

Goes live Jan bid for Feb schedules. Delayed due to software problems.

 

[asayankee]

Goes live Jan bid for Feb schedules. Delayed due to software problems.

Well, that's part of it. One reason for the software delays was ASA's fault for not paying the vendor on time. I would have stopped development work too.

 

[ohplease!]

Because they have the ability to run the software many different times, each time tweaking the settings to get a more favorable result.

I'm sure eventually they'll get it down to the point where it may only take a few hours, but they're just learning it like we are, so how about a little patience?

All out of patience! Our alpa boys have nobody's interests in mind but their own....and don't give me the "but their volunteering their time and giving up their QOL to help us out" BS.... time for these chumps to go.

 

[Speedtape]

All out of patience! Our alpa boys have nobody's interests in mind but their own....and don't give me the "but their volunteering their time and giving up their QOL to help us out" BS.... time for these chumps to go.

Don't know about you, but I want it to work as intended. If it takes even longer, so be it. It's software, and his has been customized, the CDO rules are complex to protect bad things from happening to people who don't bid them but may be awarded them, and everyone is still learning. From my perspective, take as long as you like, because if it's not right when it gets turned on, it may not ever be fixed right.

I've done basic programming before in school, and another job. In complex processes it requires programming, testing, more programming, more testing, and more programming in a continued cycle, until it's right. It's not like starting up your car or using a remote control--where the hard work or programming has already been done for you.

I was totally against it, but after the 2 practice bids and awards, I can see where this will be a great improvement over what we do today. However, I have to do my part, because no one has a more vested interest in the quality of my schedule than me. It certainly can't be left in others hands to determine what a good schedule is for me. Let's be patient, let them get it right or near right, do our part, and I am convinced that we will never want to go back to line bidding.

 

[ohplease!]

They've had nearly a year (if not far longer) to "get it right" and FLICA is paid to do the programing and testing (I can only assume they are professionals and know what they are doing). Testing and running the results need only take minutes unless FLICA is working on a Commador 64. Hell, my phone could crunch those numbers in minutes. All of this on again/off again BS with PBS is just that, BS. Here we are just a little more than a week from going live with this thing and the last practice hasn't been published...and we're supposed to get one more practice before bidding?....here's a little note for the fella's in the alpa office; if you're not going to fly a line, at least get this fixed so that those of us who do won't get screwed! and I'm sure you guy's will do the least amount you have to do.