ASA Negotiations Suspended Indefinitely

[JoeMerchant]

Pilots are approximately 5% of total cost. (Handbook of Airline Economics) So you tell me; if we give them an 8% paycut, that would equate to ~1/3% total cost reduction, why should we get anything over someone else? The cost difference is negligible.

In theory, you are correct. However pilot costs still remain the single largest CONTROLLABLE cost. In addition, we as pilots have for the most part chosen ALPA to bargain for us. Guess what ALPA chose as the method to use in bargaining pay and work rules? They chose a method called "pattern bargaining". Pattern bargaining works well when things are going well and the pattern is moving forward. Pattern bargaining doesn't work well when things are going backwards. Add to this the fact that we have to compete with our fellow "union brothers", many of whom make less than we do, and things get more complicated. Throw in the fact that regional FOs can be trained in 10 months at numerous "puppy farms" and are more than happy to fly for much less and you get your "WHY".

On the ALPA front:

I agree with you on some, but not all. I believe that our local level ALPA members are trying to do what is best for us at ASA. However, I believe that ALPA on the national level is completely useless. In fact, I do believe they are helping to destroy our profession.

On a local level, they are definately trying. Even the two a$$holes Bizjet and John P. are trying to do what is best. Trying doesn't equate to doing. If we can't solve the problem of competing on a "national" level, then anything done on a local level is simply a waste of time. You even said "I do believe they are helping to destroy our profession" I have to ask, why am I paying 2% of my pay to an organization that is "helping to destroy our profession"

 

[surplus1]

Joe-

If your theory on undercutting other carriers holds true, then why hasn't Comair gotten E-170's? They gave portfolio Fred his paycut for growth and wound up getting shrunk. How do you explain this? And you cannot use the anchor of Mother Delta as the reason.

I'll try to "explain" it. First of all, the pay freeze that CMR pilots agreed to was an exchange for job security and some growth potential. It never took effect because of Delta's subsequent bankruptcy. Even after that now infamous "pay freeze" the CMR contract was still substantially ahead (more expensive) than anyone else overall. We didn't get new airplanes because we are wholly owned by Delta and they didn't have any money to buy anything. Delta had no capital then, and still doesn't.

CHQ got the E-170 deal because Republic had the money to finance the airframes. Delta did not.
The second concessionary agreement was forced by the bankruptcy. The bankruptcy is the direct result of being owned by Delta -- telling us that Delta is not the reason just doesn't make any sense.

Delta deliberately hired Mesa and literally transfered thousands of hours of block time to them at the direct expense of CMR, whose block hours were "reduced" by the same as what was added at Mesa. DCI flying did not increase overall, it was taken from CMR and given to Mesa. That was the direct result of Mesa being "cheaper" and Delta being "desparate".

In fact, the entire demise of Comair is directly the result of its mismanagement by Delta Air Lines. They destroyed our company, literally, and they're still trying to do more of it.

At this point in time CMR won't get new equipment because DELTA has no money to buy anything. It really doesn't matter how "cheap" we become. As long as we are a wholly owned subisidiary of Delta, we're screwed.

If they could sell Comair tomorrow they would. If they can't, they will gradually shrink it and ultimately sell of the residue piece by piece.

Being "owned" by Delta was never good for Comair. In fact it was the worst thing that could possibly have happened to us.

Isn't it more likely that pilot costs (of different companies, i.e. not ASA/Skywest) do not determine where airplanes fit?

Pilot costs are not the only thing, but they are one of the things. In the ASA/Skywest scenario, the airplanes are being used and will continue to be used by the parent company to play ASA against SKYW. They will pressure ASA to be "cheaper" than SKYW any way they can. If they succeed, as soon as the dust settles they'll be lowering SKYW to match whatever they get you to agree to.

Skywest gets "new" airplanes for the same reason - Skywest holdings can finance those airplanes themselves. Delta can't. Skywest will place those airplanes whereever it is less expensive to do so OR wherever it gives them the most leverage - against the ASA union.

The Skywest pilots writing in these forums don't seem to grasp that what happens to ASA will ultimately happen to them too. If ASA sells out and low balls, Skywest will be next.

This is about power and money. They don't take from ASA now because they can't just do it without your consent. Once you settle, they CAN do it without the SKYW pilots consent, and they will.

They're playing you against each other AND against everybody else in search of the lowest common denominator. That's the game. They make the rules and right now they are winning the game.

Smell the coffee.

 

[79%N1]

Ding Ding Ding!!! We have a winner!!!!

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Joe-

There is only so much a local can do my friend.

Surplus-

Then you agree that Fred sold you a bill of goods and your group bought it.

 

[antisocialist]

Regionals aren't really airlines. They are suppliers to airlines. There are many suppliers providing the exact same product. If Delta (or any other major) can't get you to do it for the right price, then they'll get somebody else. Plus, it's easy to form a regional. It's not like you have to replace all of the competitions capacity tomorrow. You can start off route by route and slowly grow.

Just because ASA made money last year doesn't mean that they can keep doing things the exact same way and make just as much money next year. I guess some of you haven't noticed, but life for you has changed.

It's funny that Skywest wants a union and ASA hates theirs. The times they are a-changing, and if you think ALPA can control it think again.

 

[atrdriver]

It's funny that Skywest wants a union and ASA hates theirs. The times they are a-changing, and if you think ALPA can control it think again.

There is a very small number of ASA pilots who "hate" ALPA. They are a vocal minority here on this board. ALPA isn't perfect, as no organization is, but it is the best out there by far, and overall it does more good than bad, especially for regionals.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

There is a very small number of ASA pilots who "hate" ALPA. They are a vocal minority here on this board. ALPA isn't perfect, as no organization is, but it is the best out there by far, and overall it does more good than bad, especially for regionals.

I don't hate ALPA, but I don't trust ALPA either. There is a silent majority that is starting to question ALPA.

 

[regionaltard]

Throw in the fact that regional FOs can be trained in 10 months at numerous "puppy farms"......

Funny, sad, and unfortunately true. Thanks for the laugh (and the new signature).

 

[atrdriver]

I don't hate ALPA, but I don't trust ALPA either. There is a silent majority that is starting to question ALPA.

No, you just wish it was a majority. It doesn't take a math genius to figure out that half our pilots are FO's, and they have been asked by the company to take either a pay freeze or a cut and then a freeze for the next 8 or so years. Then throw in the 70 Capts that have been asked to take a cut, and the instructors who have been asked to take a huge cuy, and that is the majority of pilots. I don't think you will find a whole lot of those guys looking to hug management right now.

 

[FishandFly]

No, you just wish it was a majority. It doesn't take a math genius to figure out that half our pilots are FO's, and they have been asked by the company to take either a pay freeze or a cut and then a freeze for the next 8 or so years. Then throw in the 70 Capts that have been asked to take a cut, and the instructors who have been asked to take a huge cuy, and that is the majority of pilots. I don't think you will find a whole lot of those guys looking to hug management right now.

I haven't been here for the full duration of our contract negotiations, but wouldn't some blame for still not having a contract fall on alpa?

Also, how can people get irritated when some have higher expectations for alpa? We pay them roughly 2 Million dollars per year.