ASA Mediator Update

[JoeMerchant]

wms....do you understand that in achieving all of those goals, we will have effectively spelled the end of ASA. Being owned by Skywest puts them in the drivers seat. Look around. They can and will and have transferred our planes to SKYW. They are coming to ATL, which will only ease the taking over of our last, and only, base. We need to get the QOL gains, get our pay in-line with the industry and move on. What good will achieving all the industry leading get us, except a trip to the unemployment line!?!

Well said 79%.... I believe most agree with you.....

 

[FL990]

wms....do you understand that in achieving all of those goals, we will have effectively spelled the end of ASA. ......... What good will achieving all the industry leading get us, except a trip to the unemployment line!?!

79%

Unfortunately for us, I believe that this will happen regardless of whatever pay rates we get. THE ONLY THING THAT WILL PREVENT IT IS SCOPE!! If we don't get released in the very near future, we must give some on pay in order to narrow the issues down to scope. Then, if that is the only remaining issue, we will get released, and can force the issue by threat of strike...then we secure scope and save our jobs...

I believe this is the only way to keep out of the unemployment line...but who knows, we may get released soon if we don't get anything done on the next wave of sessions which they will probably assign us.

 

[JoeMerchant]

79%

Unfortunately for us, I believe that this will happen regardless of whatever pay rates we get. THE ONLY THING THAT WILL PREVENT IT IS SCOPE!! If we don't get released in the very near future, we must give some on pay in order to narrow the issues down to scope. Then, if that is the only remaining issue, we will get released, and can force the issue by threat of strike...then we secure scope and save our jobs...

I believe this is the only way to keep out of the unemployment line...but who knows, we may get released soon if we don't get anything done on the next wave of sessions which they will probably assign us.

FL990,

For the most part, I agree with you. However a plan B should be ready in the event we don't get a release. That would involve "buying" the scope. If we have to "buy" it, we must realize that the price is going up with each Skywest airplane that comes to ATL. Are we willing to "pay" for job protection, or are we going to continue with the tough guy routine?

 

[sweptback]

79%

Unfortunately for us, I believe that this will happen regardless of whatever pay rates we get. THE ONLY THING THAT WILL PREVENT IT IS SCOPE!! If we don't get released in the very near future, we must give some on pay in order to narrow the issues down to scope. Then, if that is the only remaining issue, we will get released, and can force the issue by threat of strike...then we secure scope and save our jobs...

I agree with you 100%, but here's some food for thought. If SkyWest, Inc. is hell-bent on replacing ASA, what reason would they have to give us scope? We can concede all the pay we want, but Jerry will still say no to any meaningful scope.

 

[ASARJMan]

I agree with you 100%, but here's some food for thought. If SkyWest, Inc. is hell-bent on replacing ASA, what reason would they have to give us scope? We can concede all the pay we want, but Jerry will still say no to any meaningful scope.

Oh man, now you've done it. You destroyed Joey Merchant's reasoning. Shame on you.

 

[ASARJMan]

Well said 79%.... I believe most agree with you.....

Hmm, what poll was that Joey? I don't recall taking that one. Most huh?

 

[VeeOne]

I think there is an ALPA meeting on the 4th and the 5th of May. What needs to happen is that all the pilots with scope and single list concerns need to stand up and voice their opinion. Everyone pukes this stuff all over FI and the web boards but we need to voice this stuff where it matters most- an ALPA meeting with all of our elected representatives present. At least we could hear an explanation why this isn't a priority for our ALPA chapter- if this isn't the case.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I think there is an ALPA meeting on the 4th and the 5th of May. What needs to happen is that all the pilots with scope and single list concerns need to stand up and voice their opinion. Everyone pukes this stuff all over FI and the web boards but we need to voice this stuff where it matters most- an ALPA meeting with all of our elected representatives present. At least we could hear an explanation why this isn't a priority for our ALPA chapter- if this isn't the case.

That's an MEC meeting on the 4th-5th, not an LEC meeting. MEC meetings are 99% closed to the public.

 

[VeeOne]

Ahhh- didn't catch that. Actually, I didn't even realize the MEC meeting was closed to the public. Any insight to when the next LEC meeting will be?

 

[WWEfan]

I'm putting my money on one more session with a release to follow immediately if there isn't a deal done.

 

[scott hall]

Hmm, what poll was that Joey? I don't recall taking that one. Most huh?

That was a poll that I conducted personally at the GO. The results were scientifically tested and cannot be disputed.

 

[FORESTGUMP]

That's an MEC meeting on the 4th-5th, not an LEC meeting. MEC meetings are 99% closed to the public.

There should never, EVER be a meeting of anyone at ASA alpa that is closed to any member of ASA alpa. NEVER! Just one more reason, on a long list of reasons, to question the actions and the motives of our reps.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

There should never, EVER be a meeting of anyone at ASA alpa that is closed to any member of ASA alpa. NEVER! Just one more reason, on a long list of reasons, to question the actions and the motives of our reps.

That is one of the dumbest posts I've seen on this subject in a while. Do you also question every other organization from civic to business that does the same thing? Stop trying to create something out of nothing.

 

[sweptback]

There should never, EVER be a meeting of anyone at ASA alpa that is closed to any member of ASA alpa. NEVER! Just one more reason, on a long list of reasons, to question the actions and the motives of our reps.

I guess by that line of reasoning you feel you should be a party to every meeting of Congress, your city council, school board, etc.

This just proves to me you don't know how the system works. You elect these reps to do your business, and you give them the direction you want them to take.

Also, if you want to question the actions or motives of your reps, please don't do it anonymously on an internet message board. Call your reps and discuss your concerns with them. They'd love to hear from you (seriously!)

 

[ASADriver]

I guess by that line of reasoning you feel you should be a party to every meeting of Congress, your city council, school board, etc.

This just proves to me you don't know how the system works. You elect these reps to do your business, and you give them the direction you want them to take.

Also, if you want to question the actions or motives of your reps, please don't do it anonymously on an internet message board. Call your reps and discuss your concerns with them. They'd love to hear from you (seriously!)

Yeah right, I tried that and was made fun of by the ALPA people. They said I didn't understand and I just needed to trust them. They were mad that I would even question their judgement.

 

[sweptback]

Yeah right, I tried that and was made fun of by the ALPA people. They said I didn't understand and I just needed to trust them. They were mad that I would even question their judgement.

Who did you talk to? PM me if you want.

 

[PCL_128]

There should never, EVER be a meeting of anyone at ASA alpa that is closed to any member of ASA alpa. NEVER! Just one more reason, on a long list of reasons, to question the actions and the motives of our reps.

MEC meetings aren't closed to the rank-and-file. Only certain parts of the meetings (things dealing with confidentiality agreements, negotiations strategies, etc...) are done in closed session. If you show up to a meeting, I'm sure that they'll let you in to speak your mind.

 

[wms]

wms....do you understand that in achieving all of those goals, we will have effectively spelled the end of ASA. Being owned by Skywest puts them in the drivers seat. Look around. They can and will and have transferred our planes to SKYW. They are coming to ATL, which will only ease the taking over of our last, and only, base. We need to get the QOL gains, get our pay in-line with the industry and move on. What good will achieving all the industry leading get us, except a trip to the unemployment line!?!

There's less shame in fighting for something you believe in and losing than cowering in the corner and caving. People like JB and others are looking out for their own interests and are willing to settle for less than their worth to protect themselves.

I'm not talking about years of struggle to give SKYW time to transfer things. I believe we need to be released soon. There's no way we can be replaced quickly enough if there's sudden interuption in service.

With SKYW, Inc being the most profitable airline in a recovering industry and a good economy, it would be a disgrace to settle for anything less than best. This isn't about company survival, it's about airline mgmts getting richer on the backs of ALL airline employees. We stuck it out during bad times to make this place successful, and they want to exploit it further rather than do the right thing and increase wages and improve QOL in an increasingly expensive economy.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Yeah right, I tried that and was made fun of by the ALPA people. They said I didn't understand and I just needed to trust them. They were mad that I would even question their judgement.

If that is true (two sides to every story), then I would say that you have a legitimate gripe and a very serious concern. While I don't believe an MEC member would be so foolish as to say that to you, I do not discount that it is possible. However, I have never gotten that type of response from anyone in the MEC...now the ACC folks have been known to say things like that when not wanting to pursue a grievance (personal experience on two non-consecutive occassions).

 

[ASARJMan]

asadrivel is full of himself, and another one who likes to attempt to stir things up. He really loves ALPA and thanks ALPA for everything he has here at ASA.

 

[JoeMerchant]

There's less shame in fighting for something you believe in and losing than cowering in the corner and caving. People like JB and others are looking out for their own interests and are willing to settle for less than their worth to protect themselves.

wms, I would submit that most ALPA pilots look out for themselves first.... if you don't believe that, then you are in denial.... Face reality, most airline pilots look out for number one first...... maybe if we weren't so tied to one employer, that would change... Our current contract is better than many other DCI carriers currently..... and the offer on the table is better than any other DCI carrier..... that unfortunately is "what we are worth".... Is what I want? NO... it is reality....

I'm not talking about years of struggle to give SKYW time to transfer things. I believe we need to be released soon. There's no way we can be replaced quickly enough if there's sudden interuption in service.

With SKYW, Inc being the most profitable airline in a recovering industry and a good economy, it would be a disgrace to settle for anything less than best. This isn't about company survival, it's about airline mgmts getting richer on the backs of ALL airline employees. We stuck it out during bad times to make this place successful, and they want to exploit it further rather than do the right thing and increase wages and improve QOL in an increasingly expensive economy.

What if we aren't released? Then what are you going to do? Watch while our aircraft are transferred to Skywest?

 

[VeeOne]

"It's all just a bluff"...oh-...."They can't keep us in mediation forever"....um- how about "We don't decide where the airplanes go"....Hmmm, "It's management FOD and part of their F.U.D (Fear, Uncertainty,Doubt) campain"....I've been a long time advocate for ALPA but this is testing my last nerve. Is anybody behind the wheel for my 2% here or are we just coasting along in a clouded state of ignorant bliss and total denial????

1. We don't have magic airplanes at ASA- our profits are derived from our flying and routes provided by Delta. Skywest would turn the same profit #'s if they flew our assets, if not more. WE ARE REPLACEABLE.

2. We're in a fight over pay on a dying airframe that won't see light of day in another 4 years. They will be traded off for bigger airframes. EVEN DELTA MAINLINE HAS MADE THIS CLEAR.

3. Delta isn't buying us back......Isn't that clear to anyone by now? OTHER AIRLINES ARE BECOMING A PART OF DCI.

4. Regional growth is over- EXCEPT FOR THE CANIBALIZING OF OTHER REGIONALS. Even the Regional Airline Association president is saying this.

 

[JoeMerchant]

"It's all just a bluff"...oh-...."They can't keep us in mediation forever"....um- how about "We don't decide where the airplanes go"....Hmmm, "It's management FOD and part of their F.U.D (Fear, Uncertainty,Doubt) campain"....I've been a long time advocate for ALPA but this is testing my last nerve. Is anybody behind the wheel for my 2% here or are we just coasting along in a clouded state of ignorant bliss and total denial????

1. We don't have magic airplanes at ASA- our profits are derived from our flying and routes provided by Delta. Skywest would turn the same profit #'s if they flew our assets, if not more. WE ARE REPLACEABLE.

2. We're in a fight over pay on a dying airframe that won't see light of day in another 4 years. They will be traded off for bigger airframes. EVEN DELTA MAINLINE HAS MADE THIS CLEAR.

3. Delta isn't buying us back......Isn't that clear to anyone by now? OTHER AIRLINES ARE BECOMING A PART OF DCI.

4. Regional growth is over- EXCEPT FOR THE CANIBALIZING OF OTHER REGIONALS. Even the Regional Airline Association president is saying this.

VeeOne,

You are absolutely correct. As far as anyone being behind the wheel for your 2%, they may have good intentions, but some of them are listening to ALPA national too much. ALPA national is using us in a battle with JA, and we are just pawns in the battle. Neither side really cares about you or I.... Keep telling your reps, and consider a decertification move... that may get ALPA's attention....

 

[VeeOne]

VeeOne,

You are absolutely correct. As far as anyone being behind the wheel for your 2%, they may have good intentions, but some of them are listening to ALPA national too much. ALPA national is using us in a battle with JA, and we are just pawns in the battle. Neither side really cares about you or I.... Keep telling your reps, and consider a decertification move... that may get ALPA's attention....

I will definately voice my opinion, stand, and viewpoint of issues with our MEC, but not a decertification move- EVER. With all the problems we have right now it would be FAR worse without ALPA. I just have to read between the lines sometimes. Unfortunately our union is only as good as it's ELECTED officials that may or may not be listening. I do agree with a great many of your points though and can see them for what they are without the spin of who they are from and their ALPA performance, as many do. It's just all about the facts and happenings around us- not an emotional gossip catastrophe.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I will definately voice my opinion, stand, and viewpoint of issues with our MEC, but not a decertification move- EVER. With all the problems we have right now it would be FAR worse without ALPA. I just have to read between the lines sometimes. Unfortunately our union is only as good as it's ELECTED officials that may or may not be listening. I do agree with a great many of your points though and can see them for what they are without the spin of who they are from and their ALPA performance, as many do. It's just all about the facts and happenings around us- not an emotional gossip catastrophe.

VeeOne,

The problem is that ALPA national is driving our negotiations right now. They want to prove that they can deliver a "trophy contract" to other regionals, specifically Skywest and Colgan. Our MEC Chairman, while a nice guy and well meaning, is easily swayed by ALPA national. This will only change when the regionals stand up to ALPA and threaten to leave. Until that time, expect more of the same and expect more flying to leave ASA..... I don't want to leave ALPA, but my patience is wearing thin.....

At the current rate, Skywest is going to be better without ALPA than with it... maybe we should start thinking about ourselves.....

 

[DoinTime]

At the current rate, Skywest is going to be better without ALPA than with it... maybe we should start thinking about ourselves.....

At their current rate Skywest pilots are going to be the worst paid in the industry by 2012.

 

[ASARJMan]

... maybe we should start thinking about ourselves.....

Like YOU haven't been all along John, you and LJ that is!

 

[VeeOne]

Like YOU haven't been all along John, you and LJ that is!

Yea, because the personal soap operah horse S*&t is more important than the facts or the obvious.

 

[John Pennekamp]

VeeOne,

You are absolutely correct. As far as anyone being behind the wheel for your 2%, they may have good intentions, but some of them are listening to ALPA national too much. ALPA national is using us in a battle with JA, and we are just pawns in the battle. Neither side really cares about you or I.... Keep telling your reps, and consider a decertification move... that may get ALPA's attention....

I disagree. You will not achieve an decertification because of the fear of the unknown. It is a legitimate fear... if you dump ALPA, you had better have something waiting in the wings. SAPA is not the answer! Our pilots will NEVER decertify ALPA unless something drastic happens... like a merger without seniority. They will not take the initiative. We have no group mentality at ASA.

Your even talking about decertification undermines your credibility with our pilots, because is sends a message about your alterior motives. Everyone knows you hate ALPA and would do anything to get even for what the reps did to you and Lynn. When you say decertification our pilots think "there he goes again" and move to the next post.

If you really feel that way, you should be saying "recall" instead of "decertification" The problem is that you tried that in the election and lost big. Clearly our pilots will shoot their mouths off here anonymously about our reps screwing up, but still vote for the popular party. I don't have an answer for that one.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Agreed....

Decertification is a bigger unknown than the uncertainty that plagues us now. People want something known and comfortable. Joe Merchant has some good ideas, but to get them accomplished we need ALPA's help. We can not scare ALPA into action by threatening them. (if that could have been done, the RJDC would have already done it)

Don't know if you listened to SkyWest's conference call, but it was not a good quarter and there is not anything good on the horizon after the aircraft deliveries this year. SkyWest's competitors are more competitive and they are getting the flying. SkyWest, Inc. is starting to grumble about SkyWest's compensation.

While this sounds bad, it may have a silver lining. SkyWest may be pressured to dump the extra costs of running a redundant operation and te SkyWest pilots will likely warm up to ALPA when their compensation (most likely in the form of reduced bonus money) gets unilaterally changed.

It was interesting to hear SkyWest say that transferring airplanes cost them money and they quit because of the expenses involved. Soon, I believe, the SkyWest pilots will be whipsawed by the ASA pilots and things may swing the other direction.

ALPA could capitalize on this with scope language that favors ALPA members using something like the numbers currently on the table.

But without ALPA, I fear the whipsaw would only accelerate due to the lack of enforceable scope.