ASA MEC letter

[Palerider957]

Well said fins....


In an earlier posts, someone mentioned a lists of how much each delay, or problem cost United by the minute? This is actually posted somewhere??? Jesus, I wish DCI would post such a list. EVERY Captain could have a copy in their hat, then compete as to how much you have cost this POS company on an average day!!!

"Hey check it out, I burned 22K last month! Awww, that's nothin' man, I'm on track to burn 30k this month!"

That would certainly be fuel for the fire.

 

[atrdriver]

Sleepy,

I still remember giddy ASA pilots running around our crew lounge talking about the CMR airplanes we got during their strike. These ASA pilots were excited over the "new" airplanes.

Oh come on now. Those 3 planes sat on the ramp for the first 3 weeks never having been flown because every time someone got on one they wrote it up. We finally HAD to fly them because they put them on our ceertificate. NO ONE was happy to get them, and NO ONE was happy to fly them.

 

[atrdriver]

And in my opinion ASA pilots if given the chance to sign our contract as porposed to CMR based on the guarantee of 199 airframes on property would overwhelmingly pass that TA.

Pardon me smiley, we ALREADY said NO to a contract extension that would have frozen pay rates for a promise of new airplanes. Think before you type.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Pardon me smiley, we ALREADY said NO to a contract extension that would have frozen pay rates for a promise of new airplanes. Think before you type.

D@mn Good Point!

 

[CF34-3B1]

Pardon me smiley, we ALREADY said NO to a contract extension that would have frozen pay rates for a promise of new airplanes. Think before you type.

Not only did we vote no, but FAR more importantly:

WE GOT MOST OF THE AIRPLANES ANYWAY

That's the point the CMR pilots need to remember.

 

[Al Coholic]

WE GOT MOST OF THE AIRPLANES ANYWAY

How many of those airplanes are flying the line right now?

 

[P38JLightning]

"pay cut" LOA

Pardon me smiley, we ALREADY said NO to a contract extension that would have frozen pay rates for a promise of new airplanes. Think before you type.

ATR,

you are correct, and you deserve to be respected for that. however in all fairness you have to admit it was considerably more than a pay freeze. it was a request to exit section 6 negotiations and i think tacking on a 2 year freeze. thereby throwing away all 2.5 years you have been negotiating and being forced to start over at the end of two more years, then throw in management's automatic 3-4 year bad faith bargaining "grace period" by the NMB and if agreed to you would all be stuck under your current book for at least 5-6 more years, in addition to the 2.5 years you have already invested in working towards a new one.

this is about way more than the pay tables, and so was that. you said no and we also said no. from us they wanted 10% pay cuts, plus a one year freeze, plus a significant reduction in our work rules and rigs. the "reward" for both us us for agreeing to these draconian measures would have been their handshake promise to see what they can do about getting some of the phantom 85 growth jets.

this is very different, because we already have a very good contract and all that is being asked for is a pay table freeze, and in exchange we get some pretty good contract language. at the end of the freeze we will still be higher than anyone else (except XJET if at that time they are still paying out their 7% profit sharing, which is possible but highly unlikely) and it will validate our current pay scales with Delta management. that would give you guys immeasurable leverage in front of the NMB that a "Comair contract" is indeed reasonable. without that leverage, you will likely be threatened by the NMB to be "parked" for years under your current book without negotiations, after which time negotiations would resume, and still take 2 more years.

now if you are saying the ASA pilot group will, if the comair pilots vote no to this, strike mother Delta for as long as it takes to become the first carrier with the ballz to get "Comair-plus" then i will vote no on this. but if we vote no for this specificaly to back you up, and then you settle for yet another gutless "Comair-minus" contract like every other DCI carrier and others have done, well, where would that leave us?

 

[P38JLightning]

>>>>quit blaming the Delta MEC, they didn't do anything to DCI during the last negotiations, and infact allowed more 70 seat RJs for YOU. They don't control your pay scales. If the market dictates you going cheaper (like it did for us), then that is the way it is. Quit blaming Dalpa. Ridiculous!

General,

The Delta MEC allowed more 70 seaters to be outsourced in a bidding war free for all. Nothing was allowed for US as you allude to. I know on the one hand you guys want others to "share the pain" to help out the team, because you gave big cuts, but why do you think you gave those cuts? The market. Every other major was WAY below you and you had to catch up. Your "United-plus" contract just wasn's cutting it. You made sure you got 3 years out of it of course, so the "class of 2004" could walk away with the biggest [passenger] airline pension ever to be seen again for generations (then promptly freezing it for everyone else)

now all these "extra" 70 seaters will be flown by the winners of a bidding war, which ALPA endorses, and while i know you don't care much beyond the level of "hypothetical unionisim" just ask yourself how you think this will effect YOU. Picture 5 years in the future and CHQ/SKYW/MESA are flying fleets of hundreds and hundreds of E-170's and E-190's for at or well below Comair's 50 seat rates. Just how are you going to get those on your property? A Midatlantic type deal where you undercut Eagle's ancient contract with 10 year old 50 seat, first year pay, no work rules and no retirement?

its like you guys are sitting fat (although slightly less fat, but fat nonetheless) dumb and happy reading your paper while the guy in the right seat is screaming "trend vector, trend vector!" to which you reply "yeah but my speed's good right now" even though in 10 seconds it will be 30 knots below min speed, the boards are out and the engines are at idle.

The RJDC is powerless to stop all of this, but maybe they can spank ALPA for a large settlement. I doubt it, but I'm glad they are suing and making ALPA sweat. They will never sue their way to a "TK+" seniority number, which is of course what they would passionately like, but maybe at least they can help punish ALPA for this growing lorenzo "air group" situation we're all in.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

It's all about a Duty of FAIR Representation

While your and Fins post regarding the future of the E-170 at DCI are dead on, I have to take you to task for that last paragraph.

If you think that the point of the litigation is to extract vast sums of money from your union, then you are sadly mistaken. ALPA is a dry well. Class action status favors the result being an out of court mutually agreeable settlement process rather than big chunks of moolah.

Secondly, there has never has been a TK+ seniority grab by the RJDC. Shame on you, that is the urban myth that people use to create fear and mistrust between the pilot groups. While a merge of the seniority lists was the most elegant solution, that ship has apparently sailed for good with this latest RFP. I have yet to even hear it discussed in the roadshows or on the ALPA CMR BB.

The ASA pilots are a couple of contracts and one strike behind us but I thought they were catching up. Our MECs misguided actions have put a real damper on the ASA pilots attempts to catch up and, hopefully, pass us by. Bob Arnold has every right to be enraged by recent developments. Rewarding management by prematurely jumping for RFP Version 2.0 hurts all of us.

That is why I am voting NO early and often.

 

[180ToTheMarker]

The ASA pilots are a couple of contracts and one strike behind us but I thought they were catching up. Our MECs misguided actions have put a real damper on the ASA pilots attempts to catch up and, hopefully, pass us by. Bob Arnold has every right to be enraged by recent developments. Rewarding management by prematurely jumping for RFP Version 2.0 hurts all of us.

That is why I am voting NO early and often.

Thank you to all Comair guys that vote no. Those who vote yes are really cutting us off at the knees during our negotiations. As airline pilots we fly airplanes, not buy them.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

this is very different, because we already have a very good contract and all that is being asked for is a pay table freeze, and in exchange we get some pretty good contract language. at the end of the freeze we will still be higher than anyone else (except XJET if at that time they are still paying out their 7% profit sharing, which is possible but highly unlikely) and it will validate our current pay scales with Delta management. that would give you guys immeasurable leverage in front of the NMB that a "Comair contract" is indeed reasonable. without that leverage, you will likely be threatened by the NMB to be "parked" for years under your current book without negotiations, after which time negotiations would resume, and still take 2 more years.

P38,

I agree. You guys have an excellent contract, with or without this TA. I also agree with your last statement about the NMB, etc.

The real reason for my reply, however, is to reference your comment that I bolded/underlined above. I'm not sure if you are analyzing your TA rates versus our new contract rates accurately. Let's forget profit sharing for the purpose of this post and discussion. If we take a 5th year Captain at XJT today and compare him to a 5th year CMR Captain today, the CMR Captain enjoys a higher hourly pay rate without question (64.47 versus 68.13). Now if we stream both of those pilots' rates out 24 months into the future, the XJT pilot will be paid several dollars more per hour (71.15 at XJT in 2006 prior to our 2007 2.5% bump versus 68.13 at CMR in 2006 prior to their 2007 2% bump).

Also, this does not count the fact that XJT's contract has a more significant retirement program as well as a better vacation system (and more days off guaranteed per year as well). With that said, this isn't a competition but I also wanted to point out that this stuff isn't all about the hourly pay rate and furthermore, ratification of your TA would put Comair pilots hired in the same year as an XJT pilot behind that XJT pilot in hourly rate due to the longevity freeze.

Good luck with your ratification process, whichever way you and your peers believe it should go. I wish the Comair pilots the best and support their collective decision.

-Neal

 

[Tim47SIP]

180 says no!

Thank you to all Comair guys that vote no. Those who vote yes are really cutting us off at the knees during our negotiations.

Why do you say this. Exactly what will Comair voting this TA in do to our negotiations at ASA. Prior to this, we were behind the power curve due to the looming possibility of them having to take a reduction in pay. Now, we have an accepted level to shoot for and a greater possiblity of achieving that level.

Asking these guys to hold up the profession while everyone around them scarfs up their flying because they wont budge is rediculous. They deserve growth, let them make up their own minds.

 

[180ToTheMarker]

Sure they deserve growth, but not at the expense of the employees. IMHO, a pay freeze is a concession and it sets a bad precedent for future negotiations.

 

[ifly4food]

Sorry, but I believe that the two aircraft DCI sent ASA during your 89 day strike never left the maintenance facility in MCN. I can't imagine that any ASA pilots were excited about sitting in a parked Comair aircraft down in MCN.

I personally saw one of them on ramp 3 in ATL.

 

[av8tor4239]

Okay, I went to the road show. My question is since Delta wrote us down to 0 in the books, what prevents them from trashing us if we don't accept this deal?

What flavor was the Kool Aid? I hope it was orange.. that is my favorite.. Green is pretty good too though


IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO BUY AIRPLANES... BEFORE MARCH 1 THE PLANES ARE BEING PAINTED IN COMAIR COLORS, AND FRED IS LAUGHING IS WAY TO THE TOP OF DELTAS BROWN NOSE LIST.

 

[General Lee]

>>>>quit blaming the Delta MEC, they didn't do anything to DCI during the last negotiations, and infact allowed more 70 seat RJs for YOU. They don't control your pay scales. If the market dictates you going cheaper (like it did for us), then that is the way it is. Quit blaming Dalpa. Ridiculous!

General,

The Delta MEC allowed more 70 seaters to be outsourced in a bidding war free for all. Nothing was allowed for US as you allude to. I know on the one hand you guys want others to "share the pain" to help out the team, because you gave big cuts, but why do you think you gave those cuts? The market. Every other major was WAY below you and you had to catch up. Your "United-plus" contract just wasn's cutting it. You made sure you got 3 years out of it of course, so the "class of 2004" could walk away with the biggest [passenger] airline pension ever to be seen again for generations (then promptly freezing it for everyone else)

now all these "extra" 70 seaters will be flown by the winners of a bidding war, which ALPA endorses, and while i know you don't care much beyond the level of "hypothetical unionisim" just ask yourself how you think this will effect YOU. Picture 5 years in the future and CHQ/SKYW/MESA are flying fleets of hundreds and hundreds of E-170's and E-190's for at or well below Comair's 50 seat rates. Just how are you going to get those on your property? A Midatlantic type deal where you undercut Eagle's ancient contract with 10 year old 50 seat, first year pay, no work rules and no retirement?

its like you guys are sitting fat (although slightly less fat, but fat nonetheless) dumb and happy reading your paper while the guy in the right seat is screaming "trend vector, trend vector!" to which you reply "yeah but my speed's good right now" even though in 10 seconds it will be 30 knots below min speed, the boards are out and the engines are at idle.

The RJDC is powerless to stop all of this, but maybe they can spank ALPA for a large settlement. I doubt it, but I'm glad they are suing and making ALPA sweat. They will never sue their way to a "TK+" seniority number, which is of course what they would passionately like, but maybe at least they can help punish ALPA for this growing lorenzo "air group" situation we're all in.

The 757/767 doesn't have a trend vector (although the 738, 777, and 764 do), but I do keep an eye on the speed anyway. As far as what the Delta MEC did, you have to remember that initially you didn't want us to $crew around with your affairs, and now you are saying that you DID want us to give you scope. We DID settle our own scope issues, by ensuring that DCI will NOT fly anything over 70 seats, and a limited number at that. As far as who flies them, that is up to the company to decide. And 90 seaters you say? Well, we have 5 years left on our current contract, and then another 2 years for negotiations. that will give Delta a $7 billion savings over the C2K contract over 7 years. They will like that, and there won't be any DCI 90 seaters. After that, we will probably ask for a raise, and that may be your possible chance. But, we may just fly those birds at reduced rates, since we don't have that plane in the pay scale and it could be negotiated. In the mean time, we gave them 32.5% of our pay and many more contract efficiencies that added up to $1 billion a year---for only 7200 or so pilots. That was huge. We are now not the highest paid on certain equipment, and we have more restrictions on what we can and cannot do. You may think that our C2K contract caused this mess, including the $2 billion stock buy back and selling the fuel hedges. Yeah, we pilots did all of that.... Riiight. Those Class of 2004 pilots did walk away with large lump sums, but they also just walked away and allowed some of our cheaper furloughs to come back and make less than they were making, actually saving the company a little cash due to longevity on larger airplanes. Some 5 year FOs are back on the 767, and that costs the company less than having more senior pilots on the same aircraft. I think the company wants to become leaner with the pay for everyone, and that includes you guys. You will either take it, or lose out on any new growth. That is unfortunate, but that is the way it goes. Everyone else in the company took a pay cut--even the Tech Ops people, and they do make money just like you guys. They took a 10% pay cut. It will be tough for you to remain without one, and the growth carrot will remain large in your cockpit window. Good luck.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[av8tor4239]

We are now not the highest paid on certain equipment, and we have more restrictions on what we can and cannot do.
I think the company wants to become leaner with the pay for everyone, and that includes you guys. You will either take it, or lose out on any new growth. That is unfortunate, but that is the way it goes. Everyone else in the company took a pay cut--even the Tech Ops people, and they do make money just like you guys. They took a 10% pay cut. It will be tough for you to remain without one, and the growth carrot will remain large in your pit window. Good luck.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Are you freaking crazy.... I made in one year what a Delta pilot ( I am assuming you are one) makes in one MONTH... AFTER YOUR PAY CUTS. I am an ASA FO. I am not saying that I should or would for that matter make what a delta pilot makes, but dont even begin to compare our pay rates to yours even after your concessions.

The only reason ASA and comair and "tech ops" are profitable is because our labor is already DISGUSTINGLY CHEAP...

 

[Nindiri]

IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO BUY AIRPLANES... BEFORE MARCH 1 THE PLANES ARE BEING PAINTED IN COMAIR COLORS, AND FRED IS LAUGHING IS WAY TO THE TOP OF DELTAS BROWN NOSE LIST.

fwiw

There are no "Comair colors". There are only DCI colors, and changing from one carrier to another is as simple as repainting the relatively tiny Comair or ASA or Whatever on the nose and slapping another name on top of it. The fact that the planes are already being painted means exactly nothing.

 

[av8tor4239]

"comair colors" is an expression used to indicate that the airplanes are comairs...

 

[Nindiri]

I know. I'm just pointing out that there is no guarantee that they will go to Comair or anyone else until they show up on the ramp.