ASA MEC job seminar September, with Air, Inc.

[FishandFly]

joe, I'm not an alpa freak, but your negativity is absurd.

How do you fail to recognize that the majority of pay, benefits, and work rules afforded to regional airlines as a whole is because of the negotiating of our union representation.

Without the fear of a united workforce, these corporations have zero reason or desire to make this a decent place.

 

[JoeMerchant]

joe, I'm not an alpa freak, but your negativity is absurd.

How do you fail to recognize that the majority of pay, benefits, and work rules afforded to regional airlines as a whole is because of the negotiating of our union representation.

Without the fear of a united workforce, these corporations have zero reason or desire to make this a decent place.

Exactly FishandFly....see we agree more than you think...... The problem is we (ALPA/airline pilots) are not a "united workforce"..... If we were we wouldn't be competing with each other for flying.... Just think what we could do if we were truly "united"....

The fact is, the Skywest pilots have it better than most union regionals, and we are not a unified workforce..... Time for ALPA to get with the times....

 

[FishandFly]

The fact that all airline pilots are not a united workforce is irrelevant. I agree that it likely would have been better over the course of history if all were united, but since that is not the case, we must deal with what we have.

Arguing that we would be better off in a perfect world does not take away from the fact that unions have played a significant role in the pursuit of this being a decent job.

Take ASA. This company's corporate mentality sucks, and they would much rather have the lowest paid and least benefited employee group in aviation because they lack the ability to see past the expense half of ac income statement.

You mention Skywest deceivingly. Do they have decent work rules and pay? Yes. But you miss the point completely if you fail to ask why.

Take a look at this:
http://asacontract.com/pa/documents/Contract_4.XLS

Notice that Skywest is right in the mix with all of the other carriers.

Skywest management is faced with a need to fill their cockpits with pilots. Pay less than everyone else and they lose pilots and are unable to get newhires.

This is called "riding on the coattails of others"

 

[JoeMerchant]

The fact that all airline pilots are not a united workforce is irrelevant. I agree that it likely would have been better over the course of history if all were united, but since that is not the case, we must deal with what we have.

There you have it folks.... ALPA has failed as a union to unifiy us.... even the ALPA supporters admit it...

Even you admit that we aren't unitied.... I disagree that it is impossible for ALPA to unify us, but if it is impossible, then I am not interested in supporting ALPA....

Arguing that we would be better off in a perfect world does not take away from the fact that unions have played a significant role in the pursuit of this being a decent job.

So you admit that this is a "decent job".... what if some of us are interested in keeping our seniority at this "decent job"? Being senior at a "decent job" is much better than starting over again at the bottom of another "decent job".... something to think about....

Take ASA. This company's corporate mentality sucks, and they would much rather have the lowest paid and least benefited employee group in aviation because they lack the ability to see past the expense half of ac income statement.

The regional model in this fee-for-departure competition is based on cheap costs.... A regional with all 18 year pilots can't compete with a Mesa with 1-5 year pilots.... The model isn't designed for people to hang around and that benefits management.... It makes more sense for ASA pilots to move on after a certain time so that they can be replaced by cheaper pilots..... The scary thing is that some of you don't understand that....

 

[frapper]

The reason ALPA hosts events like this (they did the same thing at XJ) is that in the absence of a cooling-off period, attrition is one of the most powerful pieces of negotiations leverage ALPA has.

It is not contradictory to representing your pilots, quite the opposite actually. What it says is, your current job may be at ASA, but your career is that of professional pilot, and ALPA is here to help your entire career, not just this job.

Turbo

Exactly! Someone can actually see the forest for the trees -- very nice.

All you others never cease to amaze me! Y'all must be an absolute treat to fly with!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Exactly! Someone can actually see the forest for the trees -- very nice.

All you others never cease to amaze me! Y'all must be an absolute treat to fly with!

Just think what leverage ALPA could have if they negotiated as a SINGLE voice within a brand....

Just think what leverage ALPA would have if we tightened up on the requirements to be a 121 pilot....

Just think what leverage ALPA would have if we could transport our seniority/longevity across company lines...

Oh sorry..... I was looking at the forest.....

Frapper, from your profile, I see that your "pants are around your ankle and you are taking it from ASA managment".....

Are you saying that the best ALPA can do is to encourage ASA pilots to leave? What message does that send the Skywest pilots when everyone says they need ALPA? The best ALPA will do for them is to increase their attition? Is that the best ALPA can offer? That probably won't get the Skywest pilots on board.... Maybe if ALPA could actually put a stop to the whipsaw within the brand..... you might get more to sign on..... Oh there I go again looking at the forest.......

In this environment, you don't really need ALPA to help you find another job.... there are plenty out there.....

 

[av8er2]

Simple:

1. ALPA wants to put pressure on mgt by helping even more pilots find other jobs and leave.

2. They know mgt is up to something and plans to shrink ASA a lot and transfer planes.

There is a lot of clues out there to support both. I tend to think it is #2.

 

[PCL_128]

The reason ALPA hosts events like this (they did the same thing at XJ) is that in the absence of a cooling-off period, attrition is one of the most powerful pieces of negotiations leverage ALPA has.

It is not contradictory to representing your pilots, quite the opposite actually. What it says is, your current job may be at ASA, but your career is that of professional pilot, and ALPA is here to help your entire career, not just this job.

Turbo

Bingo!!! At least someone around here has some brains and is able to think strategically.

This is not a new concept, as TurboAWD pointed out. This was a superb tool to create leverage that the XJ MEC came up with. It worked wonders, and they ended up with a bankruptcy contract that was actually more expensive than the contract they started with! Other regional MECs in contract negotiations are also considering this strategy. If the Bush administration and his lap-dog NMB won't follow the law and allow labor to exert leverage the old-fashioned way, then ALPA will just come up with new ways. This is a tried-and-true way, and I'm glad the ASA MEC and SPC are trying it.

 

[FishandFly]

Joe, your logic is flawed. Just because you don't like the system does not give strength to your negativity. Responding to every argument with theoretical arguments about how and why the system is less than perfect is similar to not liking a company's aborted t/o procedure, and explaining to everyone you fly with how it should be done in a perfect world. Then the other pilot asks you what we should do if we need to abort and you just keep explaining to him how horrible the procedure is, never answering his question.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Just think what leverage ALPA would have if we tightened up on the requirements to be a 121 pilot....

I can't argue with this at all. Given the lack of qualifications and flying skills that I seem to be saddled with every other month, I am a wholehearted supporter of the concept of higher entry requirements. I think ATP minimums would be a good place to start. However, the game is already underway, and we can't change the rules at halftime. Did ALPA screw this one up?? Absolutely. Should we have positioned ourselves much like the AMA and demanded that we have control over the entry requirements of our profession? You bet. However, that ship has sailed. We have to make do with the rules we live by.

Just think what leverage ALPA would have if we could transport our seniority/longevity across company lines...

Except that would be unfair to all those who decided to leave the regionals at an appropriate time and make a short term sacrifice for a long term gain. To continue the medical analogy (one that I consider absurd, by the way...) My best friend is an orthopaedic surgeion. He left a practice he was a partner in to join a much more successful practice in a position that essentially amounts to a resident. However, he saw that the long term gain outweighed the short term loss. Just because you may have "missed the boat" when it comes to years served versus years left in your career does not mean that a universal seniority list benefits the rest of us. I am actively seeking employment outside of ASA. I am younger than you. If I do have the good luck to hire on elsewhere, what makes you think that you are entitled to my job and my upgrade simply based on the number of years you spent shuffling around an ATR at a two-bit regional airline?? After all, I am the one who took the initiative to actually seek out a better job. I am the one who planned responsibly for my future. I am the one who scrimped and saved for my wife and my child, realizing I would take a pay cut when I decided to leave. Your pipe dream of a national seniority list reeks of laziness and a sense of entitlement.

Are you saying that the best ALPA can do is to encourage ASA pilots to leave?

Sadly enough, ASA is not, nor should it be, a career airline. One of my closest friends at this company (a 20+ year Captain) grabs me by the shoulders every time he sees me and says, "What are you still doing here? You owe it to yourself and to your family to find something else." He's right. You bash ALPA and villify the "rules of the game", but you fail to realize that ASA management does not want you around. You cost too much, plain and simple. Your experience and decision making skills are outweighed by your hourly rate. You are a financial liability to them. You should have moved on years ago. Perhaps you tried and were unsuccessful. If so, that's unfortunate. I know you... better than you think (unless I miss my guess). You're one hell of a bright guy, and a damm good pilot. You really do deserve better than ASA.


However.... ASA is the home you have chosen for yourself, and you knew the rules of the game when you made that choice. As far as I am concerned, the time has come for you to make peace with that choice. The fact that you chose to live here does not give you the right to attempt to block the emergency exits for the rest of us.