ASA July lines...

[Texx]

I am beginning to wonder whether anything ever really gets "fixed" in any contract... We just keep fighting the same battles-and losing ground.

Then you really don't understand how the system works when it comes to CBAs. Company attorney finds loopholes, ALPA attorney "trys" to fix them.

 

[crj567]

Then you really don't understand how the system works when it comes to CBAs. Company attorney finds loopholes, ALPA attorney "trys" to fix them.

You are correct... Loopholes we thought we had fixed over and over. For instance-we didn't have much trouble swapping trips under our old contract-now we cannot swap a thing. "Red arrow" days every single day-every month.... Also, we used to not get hosed so badly during a vacation month-we got pay adjustments subtracted from guarantee-not from block This is at least a 15 or 20 hour difference for each vacation month. (Don't even think about bidding naps and vacation-you can get really, really hosed.)

I am not saying that some things are not much better under our current contract, but clearly, there has been more ground lost than I would consider reasonable. Much of this could easily have been prevented by simply using better language... This thing reads as if it were written by mgmt. for the benefit of mgmt. And our PBS agreement is far, far worse than our contract.

This contract definitely has weaker language than our old one-this problem would clearly be headed off at the pass if competent people were writing the durn thing. Lawyers are getting paid a lot of our dues money to help our negotiators write our contract. You will never find any other legal document of any sort with such obviously faulty language as "considering staffing levels, the effects of efficiency, market conditions, and so forth-the company may elect to comply with XYandZ." You can bet XYandZ" is never gonna happen. The company accurately argues that they have no obligation to do many things we were told at road shows. Talk about a sales pitch!

-I am still insulted that my dues went to pay for any part of that silly flim-flam song and dance they used to sell that fine selection of toilet tissue we just ratified which will buttrape our schedules in ways we have not even imagined.

-Just Dang.

 

[Tarzan]

And our PBS agreement is far, far worse than our contract.

-I am still insulted that my dues went to pay for any part of that silly flim-flam song and dance they used to sell that fine selection of toilet tissue we just ratified which will buttrape our schedules in ways we have not even imagined.

Have you read all the language regarding PBS including the implementation letter? How about the language that prohibits the company from "interpreting" or using different terms? How about the language that that says if the language does not specifically give the company the right, they can't do it? If the company finds a way around this, I'll be surprised. I don't know how you can tie it down any tighter than that.

Secondly, your dues money didn't pay for this. The company did. Just as they will pay for the goons from ALPA to be up there to find some mutual consent on bid runs.

Will there be issues? I am sure they will come up just as with a contractual item. The goons write them as well as they can and the company looks for ways to exploit the language. It goes like that at any airline. In the end, the company can violate that document anytime they feel like it no matter how tight the language is and the only recourse we as pilots have is to file and follow the grievance procedure that take up to a year to complete. Basically, the game has rules no matter how much you don't like it. Don't like them? Go to Congress and write a new bill to get them changed.

 

[crj567]

Have you read all the language regarding PBS including the implementation letter? How about the language that prohibits the company from "interpreting" or using different terms? How about the language that that says if the language does not specifically give the company the right, they can't do it? If the company finds a way around this, I'll be surprised. I don't know how you can tie it down any tighter than that.

Secondly, your dues money didn't pay for this. The company did. Just as they will pay for the goons from ALPA to be up there to find some mutual consent on bid runs.

Yep-

Wait and see how this specific part works out.... The first month we don't have "mutual consent" is gonna be real interesting. The solution for this had to have been written by our ALPA lawyer's third-grader on a "take your kid to work day."

-That is a real funny-bone tickler.

-As far as the language in general goes-the company won't need to "interpret" a thing when each paragraph is preceded by "in the interest of efficiency, staffing levels, market conditions-the company may ___."

-Just sad that anyone bought this level of stupid.

 

[dooork]

Wow...I thought the ASA pilot contract was industry leading. Seems like after 5 years of neg. you would not have these problems....uhh.

 

[buscap]

Wow...I thought the ASA pilot contract was industry leading. Seems like after 5 years of neg. you would not have these problems....uhh.

Well, our contract is industry leading.

And as you can tell by reading these boards, our level of whining is industry leading in a big way.



I just know I'm gonna get an AMEN MUTHAH FUUUKAHHH from Oh Please!!

 

[Tarzan]

Yep-

Wait and see how this specific part works out.... The first month we don't have "mutual consent" is gonna be real interesting. The solution for this had to have been written by our ALPA lawyer's third-grader on a "take your kid to work day."

-That is a real funny-bone tickler.

-As far as the language in general goes-the company won't need to "interpret" a thing when each paragraph is preceded by "in the interest of efficiency, staffing levels, market conditions-the company may ___."

-Just sad that anyone bought this level of stupid.

Since you've stepped outside your alter ego, I'll bite again.

As far as the alluded to portion, once attrition starts again (and it will), the company isn't going to give a rats behind as long as the flying gets covered and they have their required reserve in the neighborhood of 10-12% or so I've been told. I would not be surprised to the company hand the pairings over to the PBS guys and then walk away.

You seem to have serious misunderstanding how business gets done between the union and the company. Do you honestly believe that wheatever we demand, we can just make it happen if we stamp our feet and hold our collective breathes? No mediator would ever advise the NMB to grant us a release if our demands were viewed as unreasonable. What would we have then? an impasse and the company winds. Status quo. If you have better ideas on how get the company to agree to language in documents, I am sure the current goons on the CNC would love to hear it.

 

[crj567]

Since you've stepped outside your alter ego, I'll bite again.

As far as the alluded to portion, once attrition starts again (and it will), the company isn't going to give a rats behind as long as the flying gets covered and they have their required reserve in the neighborhood of 10-12% or so I've been told. I would not be surprised to the company hand the pairings over to the PBS guys and then walk away.

You seem to have serious misunderstanding how business gets done between the union and the company. Do you honestly believe that wheatever we demand, we can just make it happen if we stamp our feet and hold our collective breathes? No mediator would ever advise the NMB to grant us a release if our demands were viewed as unreasonable. What would we have then? an impasse and the company winds. Status quo. If you have better ideas on how get the company to agree to language in documents, I am sure the current goons on the CNC would love to hear it.

I am just getting tired of seeing known problems time after time. We "fixed" all sorts of stuff in our old contract which is biting us in the butt all over again.

The company views its job as pushing the limits of what we have agreed to. It has always done so, and will continue to do the same. By forcing us to re-negotiate stuff again and again, they just extend a problem for years and years.

-We just aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this one. PBS was sold to us as something to improve our QOL, to help us bid more easily. I sincerely hope it will be, but given the company's past, and the persistent manner in which it violates the agreements we thought we had, I just don't see good things coming.

-People will be pissed if next month's pairings become the norm. And you can bet that any month when the company just "hands our PBS guys the pairings," the trips will be absolutely horrible. If you put crap in-you will get crap right back out.

-We shall see.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Garbage airline, garbage trips, garbage people all for garbage pay. It's quite nice, actually.

 

[Flybywire44]

Garbage airline, garbage trips, garbage people all for garbage pay. It's quite nice, actually.

On a positive note... Oakum Boy... check out www.therealnews.com