ASA: Growth or Contract?

[FL990]

Now that DALPA has agreed to the TA, maybe Greenjeans will finally instruct ASA's negotiators to negotiate.

Good point, Lets hope so!

 

[Rhoid]

but there's a problem...CHQ, Mesa, Eagle, Transtates...and all those other pilot groups out there that would practically pay there employer to fly there airplanesQUOTE]


Gee, if i'm not mistaken wasn't ASA one of the original PFT airlines? Kinda hipocritical don't you think?

 

[jetstream]

Yeah, we've got some of those pay for training guys and they're all senior to me.

But I've got my pride (and less debt)!

 

[FL990]

Gee, if i'm not mistaken wasn't ASA one of the original PFT airlines? Kinda hipocritical don't you think?

I'm guessing you work for CHQ...could be wrong. Anyway, the reality is if we had brand scope, we wouldn't even have this discussion because CHQ wouldn't be part of the equation. My stance on all of this is different from many of the pissed of pilots at this company. Where as some of my angry co-workers would love to see the demise of ASA just out of spite, I choose a different approach. I say we use our barganing power (if we actually have any due to the fact that I highly doubt Bush is going to allow a strike) and fight for brand scope which gives us even more leverage. Fight for that, fight for the combination of ASA and Comair and maybe even Delta too. This gives us an enormous amount of leverage for future contracts. Then we can go after the big contract and they will have little choice but to give in. In other words, what I am saying is instead of trying to put ASA out of business, as an ASA pilot, go after getting CHQ and any other outside company out of our system and focus on keeping them out...not by undercutting them, but by merging the Delta system and then squeezing others out with brand scope in order to give us the leverage we need to get the contract we deserve. This is not a personal attack, its just good business on our part. Sorry

 

[49W]

Good ideas, but Delta management will most likely never allow for a merger anywhere. Their thought process is to keep costs as low as possible. They know that by merging ASA and Comair or by giving brand scope, their options become limited and we become more powerful. Naturally, we would be in a better position to negotiate higher wages and better working conditions (there's an idea). Now they can choose the lowest bidder and subcontract out the work. It's been going on for years in other areas of aviation. The one thing that they don't look at is quality of service. When you operate this way, morale goes down, therefore motivation to go above and beyond decreases.

 

[Rhoid]

I'm guessing you work for CHQ...could be wrong. Anyway, the reality is if we had brand scope, we wouldn't even have this discussion because CHQ wouldn't be part of the equation. My stance on all of this is different from many of the pissed of pilots at this company. Where as some of my angry co-workers would love to see the demise of ASA just out of spite, I choose a different approach. I say we use our barganing power (if we actually have any due to the fact that I highly doubt Bush is going to allow a strike) and fight for brand scope which gives us even more leverage. Fight for that, fight for the combination of ASA and Comair and maybe even Delta too. This gives us an enormous amount of leverage for future contracts. Then we can go after the big contract and they will have little choice but to give in. In other words, what I am saying is instead of trying to put ASA out of business, as an ASA pilot, go after getting CHQ and any other outside company out of our system and focus on keeping them out...not by undercutting them, but by merging the Delta system and then squeezing others out with brand scope in order to give us the leverage we need to get the contract we deserve. This is not a personal attack, its just good business on our part. Sorry

It will never happen, the company will never allow you to have that much leverage over them. Besides, most ASA and Comair pilots (exceptions to the RJDC lifers) still see themselves working at a major in a few years and need the PIC turbine time to be competitive.

 

[601Pilot]

But my point in originally asking the question is this....THERE ARE TWO CHOICES HERE, in my opinion...no more, but also no less. And these two views are both valid and healthy. But sometimes we hear other opinions...opinions driven by emotion and ignorance...by the whiners. These include the desire to put ASA out of business because scheduling extended them for a 2hr trip...this kind of crap is rediculous...what does it solve to cripple the company we work for. You see, I take this attitude personally, because I have a lot invested in my career just like everone else at the this company. I am a rational thinking person, and ration tells me that puting ASA out of business accomplishes nothing but puting me out of a job again. Whether you like it or not, management is NOT the ENEMY. For every one enemy, there is another...so if they are an enemy, so are we...and we are not the enemy either. Lets face it, they aren't doing anything that we aren't doing. We want a contract that pays us the most we can get, for working the least that we can. And if it were up to them, we would pay them to fly there airplanes. It is not a personal thing, its business, and this violating the contract intentionally...It has to stop. But constant complaining solves nothing. We need to get creative and figure out a way to make it stop....LEGALLY, not by going out and cutting the tires in MTY and then writing it up.

More thoughts later...

I like your enthusiasm and optimistic view, but I don't think our negotiations are going to get any better anytime soon. With the blatant contract violations by the company including scheduling, the moral of our pilot group is way down. The only way the pilots can get the attention of management is through financial or publicized means, i.e. strict adherance to mx issues and departure/arrival times. I would say there has definitely been a spike in mx write-ups lately along with a drop in our on-time performance. Our performance is one thing Skip has to justify to Greenjeans, so that at least gets his attention. Hopefully, they will start paying more attention to negotiations in the near future.

 

[FL990]

Good ideas, but Delta management will most likely never allow for a merger anywhere.

They would have to if everyone didn't give them a choice....Imagine if ASA, Comair, and Delta made it there top priority. Essentially, it would already be a done deal...if we all threatened a work stopage, then we would be working together already...what I am saying is that we don't necessarily need there permission...if we operate as a whole, ONE UNION, ONE VOICE, They can't stop us. We need to work together as ALPA members and get rid of those companies without representation....that in the long run will GREATLY increase our quality of life. Is this fantasy land....perhaps!

 

[Lolikoka]

Wildcat Strikes Within a Brand

Call me a radical, but a REAL trade union with leadership holding core convictions and willing to go to jail for those principles would authorize one-day, illegal, wildcat strikes within a brand. Today it's Delta/ASA/Comair. Tomorrow or next week it's Continental/ExpressJet. Etc, etc. Labor unions within Europe have done wildcat strikes with generally favorable results (then again, Europe isn't as anti-union, let's make everyone work for minimum wage as the US is). They create uncertainty for the company and the traveling public, and they create chaos when they happen, but the next day, everything is back to normal except the unhappy customers.

I know, we don't want to drive away the customers that keep us in business - but I'm tired of working for substandard wages and living with the threat of my job and career potential going elsewhere.

In the legal climate of this country, wildcat strikes aren't feasible - but at least I can pretend to be a part of a union with conviction.

 

[sweptback]

A regressive contract at ASA will not happen, in my opinion. Simply, there are a lot of captains at ASA, and a lot of senior captains here that are not going anywhere else. I swear with everybody I fly with, there's maybe a 2:1 shot of guys that are actively looking, vs guys that are resigned to retire from ASA. There's also a lot of guys that unless Southwest comes calling in the next few years are probably going to stay here too.

If we were an airline that was relatively junior, and that everybody wanted out of, then I think you might see a weak contract pushed over on us with the carrot of "growth" to make it pass. But I don't think it's going to happen.

Even if management came and said, here, you re-sign the current contract and we'll get you x number of airplanes (which happened once already, and we turned it down), it would not pass again. Especially with all the dicking around we've been getting. For the relatively senior FO that is only a couple hundred numbers away from upgrade, what would a quick boost give him? A little bit more pay, and the privilege of sitting reserve for a year or so? With how much our reserve system sucks, there are FOs bypassing upgrades now because they'd rather have QOL. Look at the list for SLC... the top few could easily hold captain there, but didn't want to be on reserve with no movement.

There are three things that are important to me in this contract, that I personally will vote no on unless they're taken care of: pay, scheduling, and trip/duty rigs. I think if you did a survey of pilots, any seniority, in the company, most if not all would agree.

 

[ProLine4]

I agree with everything stated above. While the growth carrot may have been dangled previously, a better contract will certainly win out this time.
Putting FOs aside, the number of CAs that are either A) ASA lifers or B)realists that realize WN and FL arent necessarily going to hire them anytime soon, outnumbers the individuals that are not concerned with the contract because their next job is right around the corner. The latter mentality is still present with some individuals, though.

 

[FL990]

There are three things that are important to me in this contract, that I personally will vote no on unless they're taken care of: pay, scheduling, and trip/duty rigs. I think if you did a survey of pilots, any seniority, in the company, most if not all would agree.

I agree and you have my vote.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Call me a radical, but a REAL trade union with leadership holding core convictions and willing to go to jail for those principles would authorize one-day, illegal, wildcat strikes within a brand. Today it's Delta/ASA/Comair. Tomorrow or next week it's Continental/ExpressJet. Etc, etc. Labor unions within Europe have done wildcat strikes with generally favorable results (then again, Europe isn't as anti-union, let's make everyone work for minimum wage as the US is). They create uncertainty for the company and the traveling public, and they create chaos when they happen, but the next day, everything is back to normal except the unhappy customers.

I know, we don't want to drive away the customers that keep us in business - but I'm tired of working for substandard wages and living with the threat of my job and career potential going elsewhere.

In the legal climate of this country, wildcat strikes aren't feasible - but at least I can pretend to be a part of a union with conviction.

Here we go again!

First...we are not Europe.... the labor laws are not as worker friendly here in the Good Ol USA. Besides we love the minority rich and aspire to be them no matter how remote our chances....

Second, you want your leadership to charge out the foxhole, saber drawn, but you are hundled down LOW..saying go get 'em......

Are you willing to bring a gun to knife fight? Maybe but your fellow pilots are all not too willing to do the same.... As soon as you vacate your seat there will be a warm body just waiting to give it a shot....

Proactive not reactive......

Think ALPA is organized? We can't even agree on what a professional code is...behavior and appearance.....

We can be much more effective than we are, but we aren't even aware of what and HOW to do it.....

 

[701EV]

A strike is not the answer yet.

If everyone will fly the contract,POH, and FOM we will get their attention. We don't have their attention yet. I hear to many pilots calling ops for fuel,cleaners, and catering. They should be calling for one person the Departure Coordinator and wait for him or her to get to the aircraft. One call thats all. If they don't come eventually ops will call and ask whats going on. Tell them you are waiting for the DC and nothing else. This is how pilot advocate Chromer set it up. He dosen't want 40 aircraft calling ops. We are our own worst enemies by trying to be PROFESSIONAL and make things work ontime. If Fred and Skip don't care about customer service why should we?

As far as manitenance goes, you don't have to look for things to write up, just write up whats broken. We have to stop worrying about going home on time. If its broke fix it. If it breaks at an outstation get it fixed. Don't hand it over to a new crew because you want to go home ontime.

I haven't heard any pilots say that they want ASA to go out of bussiness if we don't sign a contract.

Sorry for the rant

701EV

 

[e120pilot]

I'm hearing a lot of ideas about what needs to be improved here at ASA, but no specifics. If everyone feels ASA is underpaid, what should we be making? Do you really expect a major pay raise as a result of this contract? If you do, I think you're going to be disappointed. I'd love to make more money, but you've gotta look at this as a realist. We are already paid at or above average for the regional industry, I don't see this as a time where we are really going to break the bank as far as pay rates go.

I agree 100% that scheduling and work rules are in need of big improvements. However, do you really think your life is going to be radically different after this contract? There will certainly be some improvements, but it's not going to make a major impact on your life. Reserve will still suck, scheduling will still screw with you, and the company will still be evil.

My point in saying all this is that people need to have realistic expectations. I think we'll definitely see some nice improvements in this contract when it finally gets done (who knows how long this will be?), but don't fool yourself into thinking ASA will become the greatest place ever just because of a new contract. It'll still be ASA, you'll still be making less than you deserve, and those Dothan overnights are still going to blow. You can pound your chest and say you're ready to strike, but that still doesn't mean you're going to get what you want. If you think I'm full of it, take a look at all the old posts by the Express Jet guys, and then look at their new TA. I heard a lot of talk and didn't see much of a result. I'm not saying it's their fault, it's just a rough time to be negotiating a new contract. The industry is in ruins and regional airlines are a dime a dozen.

Of course, this is JMHO!