ASA gets 13 CRJ-900's, Loses SLC

[sweptback]

Also consider that these new planes are not going to be doing just quick trips. They will likely be gone for 8 to 10 hours at a time doing flights to Mexico and such. They wouldn't be in ATL that much.

Combined with the overwater exemption we just received, the addition of first class and flying an airplane certified for 86 seats at 70 (therefore no W&B or max problems, just like the 40-seater), plus Delta's push towards international expansion, you have a very good point. These airplanes will head South, and will most likely leave and arrive in the E concourse.

I could also see JFK-Mexico flying and some limited Central America as well. The sad thing is now the "regional" line keeps getting more blurry...

 

[rjcap]

Combined with the overwater exemption we just received, the addition of first class and flying an airplane certified for 86 seats at 70 (therefore no W&B or max problems, just like the 40-seater), plus Delta's push towards international expansion, you have a very good point. These airplanes will head South, and will most likely leave and arrive in the E concourse.

I could also see JFK-Mexico flying and some limited Central America as well. The sad thing is now the "regional" line keeps getting more blurry...

Excellent point.

I can see JA taking as many deliveries as he can this year without the additional 6 seats. At the end of Dec. 2006 all they do is roll them into the hangar add the additional 6 seats, change the required paperwork and you have instantaneous 2 class operation effective 1/1/2007. Until then they operate them as you have said.

I am sure this plan has been well thought out for months.

 

[~~~^~~~]

JA said ASA will see no more 70 seaters until ad agreement is reached on pay. Eben then, ASA will not see any more 70 seaters if he can operate them more efficiently at SkyWest. I don't like his position any more than any other pilot, but so far he hasn't bluffed on anything. He seems to call it straight.

We are hearing from management that 705/900' will replace 700's which will go to Skywest. I believe them.

Has anyone figured out if there are any gorwth airplanes in the deal?

~~~^~~~

 

[rjcap]

JA said ASA will see no more 70 seaters until ad agreement is reached on pay. Eben then, ASA will not see any more 70 seaters if he can operate them more efficiently at SkyWest. I don't like his position any more than any other pilot, but so far he hasn't bluffed on anything. He seems to call it straight.

We are hearing from management that 705/900' will replace 700's which will go to Skywest. I believe them.

Has anyone figured out if there are any gorwth airplanes in the deal?

~~~^~~~

You can't be serious !!!!

Nothing that is put forth by mgmt should be taken seriousely until the new contract is finished. Its all about posturing and negotiating at this time.

The only reason the SLC closure was announced prior to the new agreement is JA knew he would have a riot on his hands if he concealed that info prior to a new agreement. The guy does appear to have some integrity.

Your statement about JA bluffing I clearly don't understand. He is in a very weak position at this point. If we had a work stoppage or slowdown he would bleed money. the new Delta fleet plan is out and he needs to respond quickly or potentially lose business to other regionals. His ASA investment gamble is at a point of do or die.

At this point in time he wants a contract done ASAP so the new Delta fleet plan can be implemented. I predict a TA by the end of the 1st week of June.


~~~~~~ don't go soft on me now.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Aren't the ATR leases up next year as well?

 

[Palerider957]

A side issue that will have some good humor content will be watching ASA attempt to provide "1st class" service!

ASA ain't exatly winning awards for pleasing passengers.

 

[shamrock]

A side issue that will have some good humor content will be watching ASA attempt to provide "1st class" service!

Very true, unfortunately.

I would forsee a gradual replacement of the 200 with the 700.

Darn, does that mean I'm going to have to fly with all the old coots on the 700? I'd really prefer those guys (and that girl) to just remain names on the seniority list or characters in stories told to me by other people.

 

[ReportCanoa]

First class ticket holders are the first to complain about bad service. Delta will get a good idea of what ASA is all about when those comment cards, letters, and phone calls start coming in...

 

[~~~^~~~]

You can't be serious !!!!

Your statement about JA bluffing I clearly don't understand. He is in a very weak position at this point. If we had a work stoppage or slowdown he would bleed money. the new Delta fleet plan is out and he needs to respond quickly or potentially lose business to other regionals. His ASA investment gamble is at a point of do or die.

At this point in time he wants a contract done ASAP so the new Delta fleet plan can be implemented. I predict a TA by the end of the 1st week of June.

~~~~~~ don't go soft on me now.

RJCap: Nah... in case no one has noticed, Jerry Atkin seems to have a plan A and plan B and plan C. If the people I've met in this industry, only a few have their business plans and contingencies as well thought out as he does. Come to think of it, the business owners who plan and diversify are the only folks I've met who have made money consistently in the business.

Sure a work stoppage would hurt him, but not nearly as bad as a work stoppage at Delta, which he said would take a couple of months to adjust to. It is just too easy to route SkyWest crews through Atlanta (like Comair did and does). I'm not saying we instantly loose the fleet, but it is child's play to replace two airplanes a month.

To his credit, he has not been telling us to deal, or die. He has told us that if an acceptable agreement is not reached he will slowly phase in SkyWest and ASA will stop growing. When ASA's growth stops everything starts getting older and more expensive. Comair is in this death spiral now and faces a frightning future if Delta does not come up with a plan other than raping the flight attendants.

I think you are correct that JA wants a deal done, but that doesn't mean he wants any deal done. If he can't meet his objectives, he will use plan B and unfortunately our union hasn't said squeek about stopping the transfer of flying to non-union carriers.

 

[~~~^~~~]

First class ticket holders are the first to complain about bad service. Delta will get a good idea of what ASA is all about when those comment cards, letters, and phone calls start coming in...

A lot of ASA's problems stem from the fact that C and D concourses in Atlanta were never well designed for boarding from ground level and ASA has entirely overgrown the space available. I understand that SkyWest is funding the rennovation of C Concourse to make it much more RJ friendly.

C Concourse now has a Crown Room and the gateside check in is a nice feature you don't have on mainline - (at least that way we don't loose all the passenger's luggage). I would also take our Flight Attendents over most of the others flying in and out of Atlanta.

Who knows, with First Class maybe the Monterrey Snacks will return, or Toasted Almonds - yummy

 

[SSDD]

Fins,

You are one of the few people on this board who gets it. JA is one of the most knowledgeable management types around. You can bet he's got plans B, C, D, maybe all the way down to J or K. He's a straight shooter, and a lot of people understimate him because they keep looking for the "angle". Hell, he even knew the DL pilots better than our illustrious General. He knew the 900 (not 705's) airframes would be agreed upon and he ordered them before there was even a TA.

We haven't always seen eye to eye, he is a businessman, but he is not your typical management type.

 

[USCtrojan]

Salt Lake Tribune

You can't be serious !!!!

Nothing that is put forth by mgmt should be taken seriousely until the new contract is finished. Its all about posturing and negotiating at this time.

The only reason the SLC closure was announced prior to the new agreement is JA knew he would have a riot on his hands if he concealed that info prior to a new agreement. The guy does appear to have some integrity.

Your statement about JA bluffing I clearly don't understand. He is in a very weak position at this point. If we had a work stoppage or slowdown he would bleed money. the new Delta fleet plan is out and he needs to respond quickly or potentially lose business to other regionals. His ASA investment gamble is at a point of do or die.



The Salt Lake Tribune put out a detailed article a few months ago about the acquisition of ASA. Jerry, with a little detail, pointed out that Skywest bought ASA for exactly how much the assets were worth. So, if the pilots strike, he can mimimize his losses by selling his assets or transferring them as he's announced now. The fact ASA makes a boatload of money is/was an added bonus. That's our ace right there. We are a very profitable company. Other than that, what is ASA to Jerry? It's just a company with assets he can sell/deteriorate/eliminate. Skywest is his baby. Started with a Seneca, I believe. That's his company, his dream. He will not let a Union run his Company. Which, is great for us in most regards. However, we need to insure that he does hold to his promises.

Trojan

 

[Plug]

Yeah, soon ASA FO's will have the option of bidding IRO slots for those 8+ hour turns. Look at STX. It is blocked right at 8 hours, or very close to it. Throw an IRO on that "comfy" jumpseat and call him/her an IRO. No wonder why DAL is losing money!

 

[Sinca3]

Fins,

You are one of the few people on this board who gets it. JA is one of the most knowledgeable management types around. You can bet he's got plans B, C, D, maybe all the way down to J or K. He's a straight shooter, and a lot of people understimate him because they keep looking for the "angle". Hell, he even knew the DL pilots better than our illustrious General. He knew the 900 (not 705's) airframes would be agreed upon and he ordered them before there was even a TA.

We haven't always seen eye to eye, he is a businessman, but he is not your typical management type.

Actully those 705 were already on order for/by ASA before Skywest bought us.

 

[SSDD]

There may have been options, but they were not ordered. Big difference. Also Skywest is not getting 705's, they're getting 900 airframes. With the 705 you can't add anymore seats at a later date. Again, keeping their options open.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You can't be serious !!!!

Nothing that is put forth by mgmt should be taken seriousely until the new contract is finished. Its all about posturing and negotiating at this time.

Why shouldn't it be taken seriously? It is ALPA that shouldn't be taken seriously. Blindly following ALPA will simply result in ASA shrinking. We are a subsidiary of a company that receives revenue from two extremely weak companies and that has a declining profit margin. The other pilot group in this company is non-union. This is not a strong position to be in.

The only reason the SLC closure was announced prior to the new agreement is JA knew he would have a riot on his hands if he concealed that info prior to a new agreement. The guy does appear to have some integrity.

Your statement about JA bluffing I clearly don't understand. He is in a very weak position at this point. If we had a work stoppage or slowdown he would bleed money. the new Delta fleet plan is out and he needs to respond quickly or potentially lose business to other regionals. His ASA investment gamble is at a point of do or die.

At this point in time he wants a contract done ASAP so the new Delta fleet plan can be implemented. I predict a TA by the end of the 1st week of June.


~~~~~~ don't go soft on me now.

He wants a contract ASAP, but not at the cost structure that ALPA is asking for. This should be a wake-up call to all you ALPA flag wavers. If our costs get out of line, there is nothing that will stop Jerry from transferring assets to SKYW. There is nothing that the almighty ALPA can do to stop this.

 

[HoserASA]

Why shouldn't it be taken seriously? It is ALPA that shouldn't be taken seriously. Blindly following ALPA will simply result in ASA shrinking. We are a subsidiary of a company that receives revenue from two extremely weak companies and that has a declining profit margin. The other pilot group in this company is non-union. This is not a strong position to be in.



He wants a contract ASAP, but not at the cost structure that ALPA is asking for. This should be a wake-up call to all you ALPA flag wavers. If our costs get out of line, there is nothing that will stop Jerry from transferring assets to SKYW. There is nothing that the almighty ALPA can do to stop this.

Hereeeeeeeeeeeee's....Johnny....again! Guess you had to rest up for a few weeks before you started back with the same old crap on here and the ASA message boards eh John?

Hoser

Oh yeah, almost forgot John, ALPA Speaks For Me!

 

[rjcap]

Why shouldn't it be taken seriously? It is ALPA that shouldn't be taken seriously. Blindly following ALPA will simply result in ASA shrinking. We are a subsidiary of a company that receives revenue from two extremely weak companies and that has a declining profit margin. The other pilot group in this company is non-union. This is not a strong position to be in.



He wants a contract ASAP, but not at the cost structure that ALPA is asking for. This should be a wake-up call to all you ALPA flag wavers. If our costs get out of line, there is nothing that will stop Jerry from transferring assets to SKYW. There is nothing that the almighty ALPA can do to stop this.

You very likely missed the point of my comments.

I don't believe any of this 70 seat B.S. We are not too expensive and ultimately it won't matter because the 50's are less economical to operate then 70's. The 50's will slowly be replaced with 70's because of the economic advantages that are far outweighted by the small hourly crew pay differential. Read the following:

Valid economics
According to GECAS data, the economics of the 50-seater remain valid, especially when compared with a 70-seat regional jet. Figures supplied by the lessor indicate that with fuel at $0.53/litre ($2.02/USgal), unit costs on a 550km (300nm) trip are almost identical for 50- and 70-seaters at a little under 10¢/km, and total dollar spend drops almost 36% from $3,725 for the larger aircraft to $2,741 for the 50-seater.

If JA wants to open an ATL base for Skywest pilots then so be it.

If JA wants to phase ASA out then so be it. It won't be because we're too expensive but more then likley that we're such a sloppy operation.

Merchant you bore me with your ranting and raving.

 

[Smacktard]

You very likely missed the point of my comments.

I don't believe any of this 70 seat B.S. We are not too expensive and ultimately it won't matter because the 50's are less economical to operate then 70's. The 50's will slowly be replaced with 70's because of the economic advantages that are far outweighted by the small hourly crew pay differential. Read the following:

Valid economics
According to GECAS data, the economics of the 50-seater remain valid, especially when compared with a 70-seat regional jet. Figures supplied by the lessor indicate that with fuel at $0.53/litre ($2.02/USgal), unit costs on a 550km (300nm) trip are almost identical for 50- and 70-seaters at a little under 10¢/km, and total dollar spend drops almost 36% from $3,725 for the larger aircraft to $2,741 for the 50-seater.

If JA wants to open an ATL base for Skywest pilots then so be it.

If JA wants to phase ASA out then so be it. It won't be because we're too expensive but more then likley that we're such a sloppy operation.

Merchant you bore me with your ranting and raving.

Hey, where's the footnote? That came from my thread!

 

[~~~^~~~]

RJ Cap:

Not too sure that I understand your quote. If block hour costs are the same, then the -700 really puts the 50 in the dirt with its 40% greater revenue capacity. Who knows what Delta pays us to fly these things. The numbers I've seen represent the -700 to be around 15% more to operate than a -200 and the 900's to be another 4 to 5% on top of the -700.

I agree with you that Crew Costs are not the determining factor, but they are a part of sum Jerry Atkin looks at when deciding where to deploy his assets. I think Atlanta was always where the 705/900's were headed because we are Delta's primary hub and the feed is needed here more than elsewhere. But it costs Skywest next to nothing to route their -700's through ATL on 4 day trips.

Another factor is that no one wants to bid the -700/-900 left seat at its current pay rates. Will ASA management like having that airplane as the "junior upgrade?"

The answer might just be a blended list.

~~~^~~~

 

[rjcap]

Hey, where's the footnote? That came from my thread!

My apologies.

In my haste to respond to Merchant's rant I neglected to follow literary etiquette. Thanks for finding that operation information !!

 

[rjcap]

RJ Cap:

Not too sure that I understand your quote. If block hour costs are the same, then the -700 really puts the 50 in the dirt with its 40% greater revenue capacity. Who knows what Delta pays us to fly these things. The numbers I've seen represent the -700 to be around 15% more to operate than a -200 and the 900's to be another 4 to 5% on top of the -700.

I agree with you that Crew Costs are not the determining factor, but they are a part of sum Jerry Atkin looks at when deciding where to deploy his assets. I think Atlanta was always where the 705/900's were headed because we are Delta's primary hub and the feed is needed here more than elsewhere. But it costs Skywest next to nothing to route their -700's through ATL on 4 day trips.

Another factor is that no one wants to bid the -700/-900 left seat at its current pay rates. Will ASA management like having that airplane as the "junior upgrade?"

The answer might just be a blended list.

~~~^~~~

In a nutshell;

Skywest, 50 and 70 seat, pilots make more money then ASA.

The 700 has 40% revenue capacity with the same ops cost as the 50.

Ultimately we will be a 700/900 operator due to the economics of the aircraft.

If we settle for a flat 50 seat rate then we will be flying 700 and 900 a/c with no incremental pay change. Thats great for JA and lousy for us.


NO 700 PAYCUT !!!!

 

[legalalien]

RJ Cap:

Not too sure that I understand your quote. If block hour costs are the same, then the -700 really puts the 50 in the dirt with its 40% greater revenue capacity. Who knows what Delta pays us to fly these things. The numbers I've seen represent the -700 to be around 15% more to operate than a -200 and the 900's to be another 4 to 5% on top of the -700.

I agree with you that Crew Costs are not the determining factor, but they are a part of sum Jerry Atkin looks at when deciding where to deploy his assets. I think Atlanta was always where the 705/900's were headed because we are Delta's primary hub and the feed is needed here more than elsewhere. But it costs Skywest next to nothing to route their -700's through ATL on 4 day trips.

Another factor is that no one wants to bid the -700/-900 left seat at its current pay rates. Will ASA management like having that airplane as the "junior upgrade?"

The answer might just be a blended list.

~~~^~~~

The quote, I believe says that seat mile costs are the same not block hour (at about 10c)

 

[John Pennekamp]

He has told us that if an acceptable agreement is not reached he will slowly phase in SkyWest and ASA will stop growing.

Could you provide some references to that statement? Date, time, location, witnesss? That's news to me, and news to our union.

 

[737 Pylt]

Hereeeeeeeeeeeee's....Johnny....again! Guess you had to rest up for a few weeks before you started back with the same old crap on here and the ASA message boards eh John?

Hoser

Oh yeah, almost forgot John, ALPA Speaks For Me!

Hey, at least he's consistent!
737

 

[Tomct]

Right ON RJcap! I am with you! They will be dumping the 50's as fast as they can and here we would be sitting flying all these bigger airplanes for less! Screw that!!!!!!!