ASA future with Skywest

[JoeMerchant]

Labor costs have as much to do with the longevity of the pilot group as the pay rate. The "Jackson 5" winning would not have changed the longevity of pilots one bit.

Why do you think SkyWest is a cheaper operator than ASA? It's not the payrates, they're almost identical. SkyWest is a much more junior airline, and there's nothing ASA can do to fix that other than grow, which isn't an option now.

Partially correct...The Skywest group is actually more senior at the top and less senior at the bottom....Longevity is a major factor....

The ASA coalition would have made scope and a single list a priority....they also would have been more reasonable with regards to some of the demands that we held out for....

Job security and surviving the coming storm are my priorities.......Bean counters are running the show like it or not! Maybe if we had a real union, that wouldn't be as much a factor...but in the portfolio world that ALPA helped create...it is a factor....

 

[Bako Cap]

Ok I'll bite. How many carriers has Skywest bought, and what was the result of the integratio, if any?

I know you know the answer. But, this WHALEFAT guy has no clue what he is talking about. Good luck getting an answer, he dodged my question.

 

[Speedtape]

Partially correct...The Skywest group is actually more senior at the top and less senior at the bottom....Longevity is a major factor....

The ASA coalition would have made scope and a single list a priority....they also would have been more reasonable with regards to some of the demands that we held out for....

Job security and surviving the coming storm are my priorities.......Bean counters are running the show like it or not! Maybe if we had a real union, that wouldn't be as much a factor...but in the portfolio world that ALPA helped create...it is a factor....

The ASA coalition lost, for lack of popular vote. Scope, for what scope is ever worth, was included in the present agreement. Reasonable solutions were reached, at least what WE voted on. Would your ASA coalition have held out for a No Furlough Clause?

Bean counters always run the show--nothing new there. YOUR job security--for what it's worth is guaranteed by the seniority system that was established years ago by the very institution, the real union, you attack. Have you been furloughed? That's what YOUR real union has done for you, lately!

What is a real union in YOUR mind? Is it one run by "real union leaders" who campaign, get elected, then turn their back on the members who trusted them and elected them to office by making selfish decisions to make a personal statement and leaving a position void of leadership and without a voice for the membership? It seems that someone is in personal conflict and a very real part of that which he/she criticizes. If there is blame to be levied, do you share in that blame?

 

[Nevets]

At risk of sounding like a union hater, I'll toss this one out there...

One thing the SkyWest management does not have to contend with with is the cost of dealing with a union. Grievance processes can be expensive and drawn out. Instead the union chooses to defend the indefensible (360 on the arrival?) and cost the company more money that could be going to the shareholders or to lower costs to make it more attractive to other potential customers.

At risk of sounding like a union cheerleader, I'll toss this one out there...

So in other words, Skywest saves money because their pilots don't have as many rights as union pilots. Our appeals process in our justice system is also expensive to the taxpayers (shareholders) but you don't see anyone saying we should get rid of it despite the record deficits and skyrocketing national debt.

 

[Tarzan]

At risk of sounding like a union cheerleader, I'll toss this one out there...

So in other words, Skywest saves money because their pilots don't have as many rights as union pilots. Our appeals process in our justice system is also expensive to the taxpayers (shareholders) but you don't see anyone saying we should get rid of it despite the record deficits and skyrocketing national debt.

The premise in your statement is asinine, let alone you argument.

The government is under no obligation to shareholders, only the Constitution. Businesses on the other hand are beholden to the shareholder. They must create wealth to continue to exist. The government need only raise taxes.

While I know you mean well, these are sorts of premises that I know many of the ALPA leaders hold. All it does is solidify their rational to hold onto power. They are no better than 90% of the politicians we have in DC. The more I hear arguments such as yours, the more I am ready to turn in my card. While I like the protections I receive, it appears to me we may have begun to reach the point of diminished return on ALPA.

Additionally, explain to me how you can justify keeping a pilot who did a 360 on an arrival? The paperwork on this pilot is a foot deep, yet ALPA will defend this pilot. One mistake, absolutely, defend. Once it becomes something of a pattern, they need to stop the defense. All it does is cost dues money and the company money. After all, ALPA is all about safety right?

 

[SkyNation]

At risk of sounding like a union cheerleader

too late! your pom poms are showing!

 

[buscap]

The premise in your statement is asinine, let alone you argument.

The government is under no obligation to shareholders, only the Constitution. Businesses on the other hand are beholden to the shareholder. They must create wealth to continue to exist. The government need only raise taxes.

While I know you mean well, these are sorts of premises that I know many of the ALPA leaders hold. All it does is solidify their rational to hold onto power. They are no better than 90% of the politicians we have in DC. The more I hear arguments such as yours, the more I am ready to turn in my card. While I like the protections I receive, it appears to me we may have begun to reach the point of diminished return on ALPA.

Additionally, explain to me how you can justify keeping a pilot who did a 360 on an arrival? The paperwork on this pilot is a foot deep, yet ALPA will defend this pilot. One mistake, absolutely, defend. Once it becomes something of a pattern, they need to stop the defense. All it does is cost dues money and the company money. After all, ALPA is all about safety right?

While terrible, this is part of the double edged sword which comes with any such organization. That dummasss pilot paid dues just like the rest and is entitled to the defense.

It's much like the public defender system. I don't like it either, but that same system may very well save your butt if things change and the company goes head hunting for pilots they don't like.

And we can't let local union politics dictate who gets the defense and who doesn't. Would you want to be a political enemy of the MEC if they got to chose who got defended?

It sucks, but the alternative sucks more.

 

[JustaNumber]

The premise in your statement is asinine, let alone you argument.

The government is under no obligation to shareholders, only the Constitution. Businesses on the other hand are beholden to the shareholder. They must create wealth to continue to exist. The government need only raise taxes.

We as union employees have set it up so that business is also beholden to our contract, if they wish to benefit from our employment. That includes a fair "judicial system" for dealing with disciplinary action. Do you disagree with this?

While I know you mean well, these are sorts of premises that I know many of the ALPA leaders hold. All it does is solidify their rational to hold onto power. They are no better than 90% of the politicians we have in DC. The more I hear arguments such as yours, the more I am ready to turn in my card. While I like the protections I receive, it appears to me we may have begun to reach the point of diminished return on ALPA.

Additionally, explain to me how you can justify keeping a pilot who did a 360 on an arrival? The paperwork on this pilot is a foot deep, yet ALPA will defend this pilot. One mistake, absolutely, defend. Once it becomes something of a pattern, they need to stop the defense. All it does is cost dues money and the company money. After all, ALPA is all about safety right?

I believe all pilots are entitled to representation (that's what we're paying for). The problem appears to be deeper than just having representation, as serial killers also receive representation, but usually are removed from society in spite of such representation. So let's reform the system, not abandon representation!

To respond to the original point about representation, though, I don't have the numbers, but I really don't believe the existence of a grievance process represents the difference in pilot costs between ASA and SkyWest.

 

[LazyLightnin']

To answer the original question, just ask yourself what you would do if you were in Skywest's shoes. The answer is
pretty simple.

It's been the plan from the beginning.

 

[Tarzan]

We as union employees have set it up so that business is also beholden to our contract, if they wish to benefit from our employment. That includes a fair "judicial system" for dealing with disciplinary action. Do you disagree with this?

I agree with the premise. The application has been going to wrong way for a while.

I believe all pilots are entitled to representation (that's what we're paying for). The problem appears to be deeper than just having representation, as serial killers also receive representation, but usually are removed from society in spite of such representation. So let's reform the system, not abandon representation!

Reforming the system will require some folks that are willing to send the current MEC back to the line. On a personal level, I like all of those guys. I really believe they are doing what they is best. Problem is from my perspective is they have been there too long and are too beholden to the militant minority just national is. We need a change in leadership that will step away from the combative tones that have been common place here since the George and John days. The players have changed and the field has been changed as well. The later being the most important, I don't feel that many have recognized that fact.

To respond to the original point about representation, though, I don't have the numbers, but I really don't believe the existence of a grievance process represents the difference in pilot costs between ASA and SkyWest.

It's not just the greivance process, it is the entire setup. To Inc's credit they appear to try to accomodate requests. Hotels are a good example. How much extra does it cost to send crews to long overnight hotels when the shorter one's charge less? It simply costs more to comform to another contract. I say another because of all the legislation and regulation in this market. The nitch for a legacy to make money is extremely narrow. If one parameter gets shifted, there goes the profit for some time. Small lift providers are in turn affected. This drives down their margin making them less apealling to investors.

In the end, if given the chance to go to SKW with my date of hire from ASA, I'd bail in a minute swilling my koolaid. However, I do like having some legal protections as well as medical advice if needed. I have a consdierable amount of my life tied up in this profession and I like the protections. However, I don't think we will see any meaningful reform for ALPA anytime soon.

 

[Nevets]

The premise in your statement is asinine, let alone you argument.

The government is under no obligation to shareholders, only the Constitution. Businesses on the other hand are beholden to the shareholder. They must create wealth to continue to exist. The government need only raise taxes.

While I know you mean well, these are sorts of premises that I know many of the ALPA leaders hold. All it does is solidify their rational to hold onto power. They are no better than 90% of the politicians we have in DC. The more I hear arguments such as yours, the more I am ready to turn in my card. While I like the protections I receive, it appears to me we may have begun to reach the point of diminished return on ALPA.

Additionally, explain to me how you can justify keeping a pilot who did a 360 on an arrival? The paperwork on this pilot is a foot deep, yet ALPA will defend this pilot. One mistake, absolutely, defend. Once it becomes something of a pattern, they need to stop the defense. All it does is cost dues money and the company money. After all, ALPA is all about safety right?

You misunderstood me. I was NOT saying that the constitution is beholden to shareholders. What I was saying is that the shareholders are to the company as the taxpayers/citizens are to the USA.

If you like the protections you receive, then you will not like the protections you will not receive at Skywest. If ALPA has reached a point of diminishing returns, then its time we did something about it. We are ALPA. ALPA is not something that is in DC. Its you and me.

I justify all pilots to exercise their grievance rights just as I justify OJ exercising his constitutional rights to have a defense. In both cases, our predecessors have fought hard for those rights so that we are treated with just.

too late! your pom poms are showing!

Sorry, I meant to add an emoticon to express my sarcasm in that post. I'm only as much of a cheerleader as he is a hater.

Reforming the system will require some folks that are willing to send the current MEC back to the line. On a personal level, I like all of those guys. I really believe they are doing what they is best. Problem is from my perspective is they have been there too long and are too beholden to the militant minority just national is. We need a change in leadership that will step away from the combative tones that have been common place here since the George and John days. The players have changed and the field has been changed as well. The later being the most important, I don't feel that many have recognized that fact.

However, I do like having some legal protections as well as medical advice if needed. I have a consdierable amount of my life tied up in this profession and I like the protections. However, I don't think we will see any meaningful reform for ALPA anytime soon.

Its not that hard to recall elected MEC members. You wont see any meaningful reform if you don't do anything to reform it.

 

[Plainsman]

We as union employees have set it up so that business is also beholden to our contract, if they wish to benefit from our employment. That includes a fair "judicial system" for dealing with disciplinary action. Do you disagree with this?


I believe all pilots are entitled to representation (that's what we're paying for). The problem appears to be deeper than just having representation, as serial killers also receive representation, but usually are removed from society in spite of such representation. So let's reform the system, not abandon representation!

To respond to the original point about representation, though, I don't have the numbers, but I really don't believe the existence of a grievance process represents the difference in pilot costs between ASA and SkyWest.

You sound like an attorney.