ASA folks, what's the real story here?

[Texx]

If they pull the tapes and don't hear the Capt. telling the ground crew to verify that the door is closed and latched, they may have a case.

No they don't. Nothing in the MEL states that the conversation must be on the tape. What if the crew talked to the rampers on the preflight.

 

[boknowsASA]

This is the deal:

The door indicator for the Fwd Cargo was Def. so the MEL says you must visually confirm the door is closed. The Capt. Went out there and did confirm the door was closed. How ever the Comair rampers did not lock up the cargo nets in the Fwd Cargo. After takeoff the door opened do to a differnt failure of the door. A couple bags were lost but if the nets had been put up this would have been a non event.

I only know all this because I was up here at MDW.

 

[regionaltard]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is no single failure that could result in a properly secured forward cargo door opening in flight. It is possible for the handle to appear to be properly stowed with the upper side of the door more-or-less flush against the fuselage and the lower side unsecured. That particular MEL puts the safety of the operation in the hands of a ramper who may or may not be paying attention. Best to go down and see it with your own eyes I think.

 

[joe_pilot]

He/she might have told them outside of the cockpit. I like to get all MEL verbal restriction on the CVR for CYA purposes.

Thanks Bako. That's a great idea. I just learned something.

So glad FI isn't ALL BS.

I hope this works out ok for the crew.

-JP

 

[joe_pilot]

No they don't. Nothing in the MEL states that the conversation must be on the tape. What if the crew talked to the rampers on the preflight.

Agreed. I still like the idea of discussing that on the CVR for CYA. Thoughts?

 

[atlcrashpad]

Maybe the bags didn't like the service and opened the door themselves.

dat bez sum funnie shiite....... bouyyyyyyyyyy......

 

[DrewBlows]

I'm going to take this opportunity to throw some rampers under the bus.

I don't know anything about ASA or Comair's MDW operation, but I do know I had to listen to a loud whistling noise all the way to my destination last night. For those not familiar when the ramp leaves the GPU door open it makes a terrible noise which changes in pitch and frequency depending on altitude and airspeed, Comair has attempted to solve the problem by painting the insides of the doors day-glow-orange, but everything is black at night...anyway.

When I got to our destination I noted that the door was, in fact, open so I began the tedious process of trying to close it (it's a terrible design that works for about the first two weeks the airplane is new then it's a pain in the arse) when a ramper walked up from behind and told me that he had opened the door to hook up ground power. Ordinarily this may be a believable story except that I've been to the same station for the same flight ten times this month and not once have they hooked up ground power. He was trying to cover for his comrade in CVG who forgot to close it.

I didn't particularly think it was a big deal, but it upset me that someone would try to cover up what could have been a safety of flight issue. I'm venting.

I find it amazing that a chain of events could occur in an aircraft with a door system as sophisticated as the CRJ where bags end up leaving the aircraft in flight. Someone dropped the ball and maybe the maintenance manual that allows deferring this system needs to be looked at.

 

[14RF SUX]

I had the fwd cargo door open after takeoff at LAS last year, cargo nets were in place, obviously returned for landing and didn't lose any bags (actually gained 2 bags on the count, go figure).

What we found out was that the door handle could be closed flush PRIOR to the door being pushed in place if this certain little "arm" internally is bent. The kicker is........the "green" EICAS door indication stayed green the whole time because the sensor is in the handle/lock mechanism, not the door plug.

The only reason we knew something was screwed up was it was really noisy (although it sounded more like from the nose wheel area) and the aircraft wouldn't pressurize. No unsafe door message ever came up.

14RF SUX.......still hard on the equipment around here.

 

[Speedtape]

This is the deal:

The door indicator for the Fwd Cargo was Def. so the MEL says you must visually confirm the door is closed. The Capt. Went out there and did confirm the door was closed. How ever the Comair rampers did not lock up the cargo nets in the Fwd Cargo. After takeoff the door opened do to a differnt failure of the door. A couple bags were lost but if the nets had been put up this would have been a non event.

I only know all this because I was up here at MDW.

The Captain has to confirm with the ground crew that the door is closed and the handle is flush. It does not require the Captain to personally go out for the inspection. However, it does not restrict him from making the inspection.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I hope the airport surveillance tapes and/or the CVR show that the captain instructed the ramp to verify it was closed.

 

[samballs]

I'm going to take this opportunity to throw some rampers under the bus.

I don't know anything about ASA or Comair's MDW operation, but I do know I had to listen to a loud whistling noise all the way to my destination last night. For those not familiar when the ramp leaves the GPU door open it makes a terrible noise which changes in pitch and frequency depending on altitude and airspeed, Comair has attempted to solve the problem by painting the insides of the doors day-glow-orange, but everything is black at night...anyway.

When I got to our destination I noted that the door was, in fact, open so I began the tedious process of trying to close it (it's a terrible design that works for about the first two weeks the airplane is new then it's a pain in the arse) when a ramper walked up from behind and told me that he had opened the door to hook up ground power. Ordinarily this may be a believable story except that I've been to the same station for the same flight ten times this month and not once have they hooked up ground power. He was trying to cover for his comrade in CVG who forgot to close it.

I didn't particularly think it was a big deal, but it upset me that someone would try to cover up what could have been a safety of flight issue. I'm venting.

I find it amazing that a chain of events could occur in an aircraft with a door system as sophisticated as the CRJ where bags end up leaving the aircraft in flight. Someone dropped the ball and maybe the maintenance manual that allows deferring this system needs to be looked at.

Was it MHT seems to happen there alot

 

[GeekMaster]

Everyone is missing an important point here. CVR cannot be used by the Feds for disciplinary reasons. PERIOD !!

The investigation will indeed first evaluate whether the MEL was properly/fully complied with. That may indeed include questioning the captain, "what means did you use to verify the door was properly closed and latched". The CVR simply cannot be used to either save him or prosecute him. It can be used to assist in developing better procedures.

As sorry as ASA management is, they do not have a history of throwing pilots under the FAA bus; on the contrary. Remember they even went out of their way to save that wacko in waycross. (though he eventually hung his ownself)

My guess is that if the Capt swears he gave instructions to the ramper and those instructions can even remotely be interpreted as complying with the MEL, he'll be fine. Remember......at ASA you can run naked through the hotel lobby on the overnight and be back online in a week.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Everyone is missing an important point here. CVR cannot be used by the Feds for disciplinary reasons. PERIOD !!

That's not 100% true.

The investigation will indeed first evaluate whether the MEL was properly/fully complied with. That may indeed include questioning the captain, "what means did you use to verify the door was properly closed and latched". The CVR simply cannot be used to either save him or prosecute him. It can be used to assist in developing better procedures.

The CVR cannot be used to prosecute, but I can assure you from personal experience that it IS used. I have seen it played for pilots, and I have seen them handed transcripts in discipline hearings. I have also seen it vindicate pilots. And remember this, while the laws bar the company from prosecuting you THIS TIME, if the CVR shows you guilty, rest assured that they will be watching you closely and waiting for you to do something they CAN get you on. Seen that too.

As sorry as ASA management is, they do not have a history of throwing pilots under the FAA bus; on the contrary.

Better check your facts. I can give you a list of names for your research.

Remember they even went out of their way to save that wacko in waycross. (though he eventually hung his ownself)

Are you on crack? The company didn't save anyone, the union did! The company tried to fire both of them. ALPA saved their jobs, then the CA quit. The FO is still here. Ask him the story sometime. And I wouldn't automatically characterize a new captain on his first flight off IOE who makes a dumb mistake as a "wacko". You usually make well reasoned posts, but you are losing credibility here. Did the real Geekmaster forget to log out?

My guess is that if the Capt swears he gave instructions to the ramper and those instructions can even remotely be interpreted as complying with the MEL, he'll be fine. Remember......at ASA you can run naked through the hotel lobby on the overnight and be back online in a week.

Your GUESS. 'Nuff said!

 

[GeekMaster]

That's not 100% true.



The CVR cannot be used to prosecute, but I can assure you from personal experience that it IS used. I have seen it played for pilots, and I have seen them handed transcripts in discipline hearings. I have also seen it vindicate pilots. And remember this, while the laws bar the company from prosecuting you THIS TIME, if the CVR shows you guilty, rest assured that they will be watching you closely and waiting for you to do something they CAN get you on. Seen that too.



Better check your facts. I can give you a list of names for your research.



Are you on crack? The company didn't save anyone, the union did! The company tried to fire both of them. ALPA saved their jobs, then the CA quit. The FO is still here. Ask him the story sometime. And I wouldn't automatically characterize a new captain on his first flight off IOE who makes a dumb mistake as a "wacko". You usually make well reasoned posts, but you are losing credibility here. Did the real Geekmaster forget to log out?



Your GUESS. 'Nuff said!

I think my credibility AND the pilots involved in this incident will fare "just fine".

But if we're going to look at my credibility, let's do.

All the way back in June I published what I thought could/would be accomplished in our contract negotiations. I went back and looked at what I wrote. 50 seat rates = SKW to SKW+1% with COLA = 1 to 2%.....what we got. 70 seat rates = we were already close, expect similar cola to the cr2.....what we got, Duty Rigs- expect a hybrid...somewhat what we got...but closer to our demands than theirs....signing bonus....I said 5 mil, we got 13.5....I'm happy to be wrong on that one.

Again, I published a final set of numbers for each of you to calculate your projected signing bonus late Sunday evening. It's deadly accurate....far more so than any other projections out there. Subtract about $200 dollars (apparently for MIL LOA's) from your grand total and then compare that number with the number from your rep and tell me how I did.

As for the Waycross guy, it doesn't matter here, but when they wanted to fire him, it was apparently because he didn't want to comply with the spirit of the arrangement for him to go back to the right seat and get some more experience. Admittedly I don't have access to private records the way you did but there was at least some attempt to work with the FAA on his behalf prior to "throwing him under the bus".

I think as for this cargo door, as long as the Capt attempted to comply with the MEL in verifying the door closed, He and my credibility will be just fine.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

As a Capt. you can't do everybody's job for them. You could do the walkaround and the weight and balance for the FO, load the FMS everytime, do the cabin count for the FA, load the bags for the rampers and make sure their bag counts are correct, pull the tickets for the agents, etc. At some point along the way we all have to trust that other people are doing their jobs correctly otherwise you'd never get anywhere ontime. (insert ASA joke here).