ASA decertification/recall/single list

[~~~^~~~]

how can we pull this off?

I think the only way is to make it THE strike issue. I would expect a non economic strike would be impossible to justify to shareholders, the NMB and public opinion.

 

[Jmoney]

Decertification....

Let's see if I understand this right:
We are going to get one list with Skywest because we hate ALPA national.
We are going to de-certify ALPA if we do not get this done.
We are going to look like damn idiots coming up with ideas like this!

WTF? Why does anyone now doubt that the RJDC is really a management construct to destroy ALPA from within?

This sounds curiously similar to that stuff a while back about "just elect our people to run ASA ALPA-we will have a contract withing x-number of days or we will all resign....

These guys are going nowhere-we have enough trouble from management without all the garbage that comes from their toadies......

-P.S.- What has the RJDC ever done other than take people's money to fund something that plays right into management's hands? These guys need to go find something constructive to do....

 

[~~~^~~~]

JMoney - The RJDC has nothing to do with this. In fact, the RJDC has been opposed to a decertification threat. Also, the RJDC was concerned back in the early days that management would come out very strongly opposed to the RJDC since an RJDC win would have made the local ALPA MEC's much more powerful. If they won, the RJDC would have liked to have seen the ASA and Comair ALPA Reps have equal footing with Delta's Representatives over matters dealing with our pay and working conditions. We believe that ASA and Comair pilots (under Delta ownership) had every right to expect equal treatment.

One part of history which I hope sees the light of day eventually is that a proposal was made to open negotiations between Delta, Delta ALPA, ALPA National, the RJDC leadership and ASA and Comair MEC's with the goal being to resolve the issues which gave rise to the litigation. When this was proposed by National I was greatly impressed to see the RJDC leadership step back and put their ALPA Status Representatives forward as the negotiating entity for their pilots. For a week or two, I thought we might have actually got this thing fixed. However, the Delta MEC then made it clear that they would negotiate with Delta, then basically cram down their solution on the ASA and Comair pilots. The negotiations immediately fell apart since they would not be "negotiations" they were going to be a "cram down."

As some Delta pilots have written, Delta Air Lines would have never agreed to some of the proposals made by the DL guys. Since none of the proposals got any further than Power Point presentations, there really is no reason to discuss them. As is, management got 99% of what they wanted in bankruptcy since there was no coordinated effort amongst all the pilots who performed Delta flying. If successful, the RJDC effort would have tipped the balance of power in favor of the pilots since almost 16,000 pilots (later 10,500 pilots) speaking together have a much more powerful voice than 6,500 pilots (which management characterized as greedy bastards while their jobs were transferred out to the DCI portfolio) Obviously management would not have liked an effective ALPA.

I understand your confusion since the RJDC was a reform movement and many of the reform minded pilots who support the RJDC have been trying to think up other possible solutions to try to fix the problem. Some of those ALPA Patriots have turned the corner and started throwing verbal bombs at National. However, the RJDC has been all about fixing ALPA and realizes that ALPA offers a great resource to try to fix the problems faced by ASA's pilots.

Please don't paint the RJDC with what Joe Merchant, Inclusive Scope, ~~~^~~~, or others write. We are just line pilots with our own individual thoughts and opinions. If the RJDC was a decertification effort you would know about it and I imagine it would already be accomplished.

 

[WWEfan]

LEC meeting on June 21st. Please come and voice your concerns. It really is that simple.

 

[ASARJMan]

I'll be there to see Joey's little attempt fail once more. Couldn't get his "coalition" elected so now he's gonna change the world, starting with the ASA MEC, then ALPA national. Sure you are joey.

Yes, I'm baaaccckkkk!

 

[WWEfan]

I'll be there to see Joey's little attempt fail once more. Couldn't get his "coalition" elected so now he's gonna change the world, starting with the ASA MEC, then ALPA national. Sure you are joey.

Yes, I'm baaaccckkkk!

Welcome Back.

 

[ASARJMan]

Welcome Back.

Thanks.

 

[John Pennekamp]

When CHQ did it, Republic was just a threat. They had no certificate, no airplanes, and they had no pilots other than a few management types. They got the scope they wanted pretty cheap because there wasn't much substance there. Apples to oranges.

Freedom and Mesa was a little bit different situation, as Freedom was already operating. Still, Freedom was just a small percentage of ASMs of Mesa Air Group as a whole, and the union had to pretty much give away the farm to secure scope.

Now, let's look at ASA/SkyWest. ASA is less than half, probably closer to 35-40% of total SkyWest, Inc. flying. What kind of leverage do we have to force single list? More importantly, how can the little guy scope in the big guy? I'm not saying it can't be done, but I just don't see how it can be. All the American Eagle carriers had a management that was receptive to a single certificate (well, two technically, but single list nonetheless) for all Eagle flying, and they still had to accept a 16-year contract to secure it. With a hostile management group, over half of the pilot group of Inc. not wanting single list (mainly because they're much more junior and also receiving all the growth at ASA's expense), how can we pull this off?

You're right. A scope clause really isn't worth the paper its written on in our modern world of aviation.

So how can we pull this off?

Simple. The new reality is that whether we like it or not, we MUST play the game management has on the table.

The only effective scope is to provide a quality product at an advantageous price relative to our competetors so that management has no reason to transfer our jobs.

We need to shed this pre-deregulation mindset as a group. We MUST compete, whether we like it or not.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Here at ASA, there has been much talk about the "silent majority", single list, decertification of ALPA, and recall of the MEC. A former adversary of mine is advocation possible recall. My friend Fins wants a single carrier petition without the ALPA decertification.

About a month ago, I started a petition to push for a single list. It includes decertification of ALPA if a single list is not achieved.

My thoughts on threatening decertification, is that it takes our local people off the hook. In other words it makes ALPA national the enemy. That may be more palatable than a recall. I am open to suggestions, but here is the petition.

Whereas: Skywest, Inc. owns both ASA and Skywest and has transferred aircraft and aircraft deliveries between the two carriers while the ASA pilots are currently in contract negotiations.

Whereas: Scope is the foundation of any good contract.

Whereas: ALPA is actively trying to recruit the Skywest pilot group.

Whereas: Both ALPA and Teamsters have successfully negotiated single pilot seniority lists in the past at American Eagle, Mesa Air Group, and Republic Holdings.

Whereas: ASA pilot contract negotiations, and a growing difficulty attracting and retaining pilots, have combined to open a window of opportunity to pursue a combined single pilot seniority list on the Skywest Inc. property.

Therefore be it resolved: The following ASA pilots, by signing this petition request ALPA to use all available resources to ensure a single pilot seniority list at Skywest, Inc. This single pilot seniority list must include the pilots of ASA, Skywest, and of any certificate or subsidiary that may be added in the future, regardless of aircraft size. In the event ALPA is either unwilling or unable to achieve a single list at Skywest, Inc., then the following ASA pilots will pursue other representational options with the National Mediation Board.

Joe,

To begin, let me paraphrase Fins by saying you need to make sure you don't twist my words too. I stated that if the MEC doesn't act to wrap up the contract WHEN we get more dates in July/August, then they deserve to be recalled and replaced with someone who will. Yes, that's a threat, but not on the scale you are proposing.

To answer your post:

1. I believe your proposed resolution has merit, but other than the idle threat of decertification, it has no teeth. You know as well as I that the resolution as written will not pass the floor of an LEC meeting. Even if it does, it will have been corrupted beyond recognition by rewrites under parliamentary procedure. by the end, it will be referring the matter to a "study committee" who will be instructed to give a report at the next BOD or something to that effect.

2. Under ALPA's C&BLs and PPM, there is no provision for binding the MEC with an LEC resolution. Even if your resolution passses, the MEC has the right to ignore it. Quite simply, under ALPA's constitution, the LEC may not "mandate" an MEC member.

3. Your army of "500 signatures" will ammount to absolutely nothing, as that's still only 29% of our pilot group. Regardless, there is no provision for "petitions" in the C&BLs

There IS a provision for proxies. Anyone not attending the meeting has the right to give their vote to someone who will attend, in writing. A member may hold more than one proxy. If someone were to show up with 1000 proxies, that would facilitate passage of a resolution, but then it runs into problem #2.

The only true solution is to form a grassroots effort that reaches across our pilot group, achieves a simple majority, and pressures the MEC to follow the will of the pilots.

It is typical for ALPA reps to believe they "know more" than the average pilot do to being privvy to "inside information" and therefore they feel they don't have to obey the "will" of the pilot group. They then proceed to do what they feel is best for us. This is the genesis of the new FO rep's comments about our pilots. He's been told this by the "elder statesmen" of the MEC and also by ALPA National in Leadership School. They proceed, taking comfort in the knowledge that their positions are secure, as it's very difficult to organize and execute a recall effort.

The answer is to reach out and remind them that their job is NOT secure, and they DO answer to the pilots. If they choose to continue to ignore the will of the group, they WILL lose the power and control they hold over our future.

I firmly believe that the "silent majority" we keep referring to simply wants the battle to end. They want the union to stop fighting for industry leading, and deliver a contract that will allow our company to survive by not pricing us out of the game. Scope is DOA. As I said above, our only hope left is to remain competetive.

I believe the pilots group at large agrees. Unfortunately, they are not motivated to take the reigns. Eveh SH, the FO rep opined that 60% of our pilots would approve the current offer.

My solution is to garner as many proxies as possible and force the MEC to settle under threat of recall. Should they not, we will replace them with people who will. This should not include radical members like Joe or LJ by the way.

While I understand your argument, your threats of decertification will go nowhere because you know as well as I that the majority will NOT support it. As long as your resolution contains such language, I can't even suopport it. It speaks of your long standing hatred of ALPA and smells of alterior motives.

The best path is to use a sword if necessary, not nuke the entire battlefield, as you suggest.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

You're right. A scope clause really isn't worth the paper its written on in our modern world of aviation.

So how can we pull this off?

Simple. The new reality is that whether we like it or not, we MUST play the game management has on the table.

The only effective scope is to provide a quality product at an advantageous price relative to our competetors so that management has no reason to transfer our jobs.

We need to shed this pre-deregulation mindset as a group. We MUST compete, whether we like it or not.

Thank you. I couldn't agree more.

 

[Speedtape]

You're right. A scope clause really isn't worth the paper its written on in our modern world of aviation.

So how can we pull this off?

Simple. The new reality is that whether we like it or not, we MUST play the game management has on the table.

The only effective scope is to provide a quality product at an advantageous price relative to our competetors so that management has no reason to transfer our jobs.

We need to shed this pre-deregulation mindset as a group. We MUST compete, whether we like it or not.

We are competing. We have the some of the lowest 50 seat wages in the industry. The 70 seat rates are competitive but probably can't move much.
There has been a wage freeze for about 4+ years.

The real solution to improving life for the long run for any regional pilot is to hire on at Delta, FedX, UPS, Southwest, Continental, or any other viable major carrier that appears viable and is hiring in the future. The regionals are farm teams and will never have the benefits or the pay that a major can offer. Regionals never have been, not now, or never will be the best final career choice for the vast majority of pilots. At the very best, it's simply a job, not a good career choice.

 

[John Pennekamp]

We are competing. We have the some of the lowest 50 seat wages in the industry. The 70 seat rates are competitive but probably can't move much.
There has been a wage freeze for about 4+ years.

The problem with your agrument is you're thinking in the present. When you look to the future, and include the QOL improvements, the pay raises, and the retro/signing bonus currently on the table, we are putting ourselves WAY above everybody.

What's sad is that the CNC chairman can't even come up with a number for the total proposed package cost. Someone asked that on the conference call too, and he just dodged the question. That's actually more scary than sad.

The real solution to improving life for the long run for any regional pilot is to hire on at Delta, FedX, UPS, Southwest, Continental, or any other viable major carrier that appears viable and is hiring in the future. The regionals are farm teams and will never have the benefits or the pay that a major can offer. Regionals never have been, not now, or never will be the best final career choice for the vast majority of pilots. At the very best, it's simply a job, not a good career choice.

So do you have your apps out to those companies? If you say yes, we know you're lying, because you're ASA lifer #1. Maybe you should take your own advice before you dish it out to other people. Let us know when Delta hires you, LOL. :laugh:

 

[wms]

The problem with your agrument is you're thinking in the present. When you look to the future, and include the QOL improvements, the pay raises, and the retro/signing bonus currently on the table, we are putting ourselves WAY above everybody.

And we're worth it. Too bad you don't think so. Don't drag everyone else down because you and JB want to secure your future at a commuter for less than you deserve. If ASA is not willing to pay us what we're worth then they should wither on the vine while we go on to greener pastures.

 

[John Pennekamp]

And we're worth it. Too bad you don't think so. Don't drag everyone else down because you and JB want to secure your future at a commuter for less than you deserve. If ASA is not willing to pay us what we're worth then they should wither on the vine while we go on to greener pastures.

If you come up with an intelligent, factual rebuttal, feel free to fire away. If all you've got is more innuendo and personal discreditation, save it, because it's already been done.

 

[wms]

My innuendo is this, I'm not willing to work for less than I'm worth and I expect a QOL that doesn't negatively impact my family. And it irks me when a few guys with no stomach for a fight are willing to sell out the majority for their own interests. I've merely been giving my own opinions on these issues and now you want to try an attack. Go ahead, it's not going to change my perspective or expectations. I'm no ALPA warrior and no company-man. I'm enjoying working here, and hopefully I'll move on. I'm a good employee and expect to be treated and compensated like one. And that's worth standing up for.

And if SKYW,inc wants to take the easy way out and eliminate us for expecting what's fair, that's their option. My life will go on without them.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Absolutely nothing gets done without unity. This drivel about decertification and whatever garbage only gives management more confidence that a strike effort will fail. You saw the Fedex guys get a contract within a year? It's called UNITY. Go ahead and get hired at Fedex and try this ********************. You will be marked for the rest of your career there.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

John Penne-

your post #29 is good stuff... I am proud of you. Actually what you could do is get each LEC to pass the same Rez O. Lewshun. Then you can politic each MEC member to pass an MEC version.... You might have to wordsmith it a bit to make it acceptable to more elected officials...

Its not that the ALPA reps "know more" or have inside information its just that everyone sees things differently and the bigger the group the more people you have to appease...

 

[JoeMerchant]

When CHQ did it, Republic was just a threat. They had no certificate, no airplanes, and they had no pilots other than a few management types. They got the scope they wanted pretty cheap because there wasn't much substance there. Apples to oranges.

Freedom and Mesa was a little bit different situation, as Freedom was already operating. Still, Freedom was just a small percentage of ASMs of Mesa Air Group as a whole, and the union had to pretty much give away the farm to secure scope.

Now, let's look at ASA/SkyWest. ASA is less than half, probably closer to 35-40% of total SkyWest, Inc. flying. What kind of leverage do we have to force single list? More importantly, how can the little guy scope in the big guy? I'm not saying it can't be done, but I just don't see how it can be. All the American Eagle carriers had a management that was receptive to a single certificate (well, two technically, but single list nonetheless) for all Eagle flying, and they still had to accept a 16-year contract to secure it. With a hostile management group, over half of the pilot group of Inc. not wanting single list (mainly because they're much more junior and also receiving all the growth at ASA's expense), how can we pull this off?

Your absolute correct Sweptback, CHQ and Mesa nipped it in the bud early, and paid less. We will have to either dig deep, or get a release and make a single list the only issue. What do you suggest?

A "trophy" contract without scope will be meaningless as Skywest transfers assets. What is ALPA's solution? What is your solution? Should we sacrifice ourselves on ALPA's alter? Without scope, the rest of the contract is meaningless.... unfortunately the CNC chairman doesn't understand this...

I will agree that it may be too late.... however IF it is too late, then why worry about the rest of the contract????

 

[JoeMerchant]

LEC meeting on June 21st. Please come and voice your concerns. It really is that simple.

It's not that simple.... it will be the same 30 people slapping each other on the back for doing such a "great job"..... meanwhile, the portfolio concept will continue to make ALPA irrelevant while you ALPA true believers ignore the new reality.......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's not that simple.... it will be the same 30 people slapping each other on the back for doing such a "great job".....

And why is the rest of the membership not active?

The fact is Joe, either you can handle an LEC meeting or not. Actually it is easier to pass a Rez O. Lewshun with less people...

If your cause had merit and integrity then it would pass whether its the same 30 guys or new faces. Your resolution would pass if you work with others to ensure the document was agreeable and that you politcked the issue before the meeting began....

meanwhile, the portfolio concept will continue to make ALPA irrelevant while you ALPA true believers ignore the new reality.......

This is your problem Joe... if others don't think like you then you criticize. You will never be effective as long as you continue to be adversarial... no one wants to work with you because you can't negotiate, work with other and compromise..... there for you sue.



Next....