ASA decertification/recall/single list

[Tarzan]

Are you going to the LEC meeting?

I'll be there. Hopefully you will be as well.

 

[WWEfan]

I'll be there. I bet JB won't.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,

Are you going to the LEC meeting?

No, why should I? I already know what will be said.... we will slap each other on the back, tell each other how great our side is, and how evil the company is. JR will say something like "we are comfortable with our position, and we expect a release". There will be about 40 pilots there, and most will be diehard ALPA supporters. The few that have questions about our strategy will largely be intimidated to say much, and if they do, they will be told that ALPA understands the competive nature, and will not do anything that harms ASA.

Let me know how close I am.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Because we aren't doctors and lawyers. We are tradesmen. Blue collar labor. It's like you realized one day that you are a serf and not a landowner. It is just the way it is....

Maybe we should learn something from other professions..... transportablility of seniority goes a long way to building leverage in negotiations... the current approach isn't working Rez...

"It is just the way it is" only works for an argument if you are willing to accept more of the same.... if want things to change, you will need to adjust your attitude and that of ALPA's....

Valid point. I thought of that... he was also questioning the system and market which allows 250 hour pilots..

No other profession would allow someone to fast track like we do.... it is both a safety issue and collective bargaining issue. I am glad that ALPA is finally saying something about it.... it may be too late however...

 

[JoeMerchant]

It is what it is...




An LEC meeting is the democratic venue to address ones issues....

The system isn't broken... you just don't know how to function in the system...

or

Fix the system......

Fins discussed changing the organizational structure... fair enough... but if we are going to do that then I think we should spend that energy on the 250hr pilot you discussed above...

I am done working within the system, as I believe it is broken and is benefiting neither side on the scope issue.

There you go again with threats and lawsuits.. How about the ol' honey/vinegar cliche...

Have you been reading the USAirways/AWA threads or the age 60 threads on the national boards.... not much honey flowing around ALPA these days Rez....

Politics is the engine of unions. If you refuse to particapte in politics you will be bitter, angry and ready to sue....

I'm not bitter or angry, I just don't believe in ALPA. I am quite happy with my job and my company, and I am doing what I believe is best for ME. Politics doesn't usually solve many problems... look at the current immigration issue.... lot's of politicians and no leaders.... there is a difference....

We need more leaders, and less politicians..... you are obviously a politician....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'll be there. I bet JB won't.

Your right..... heard it before a million times.... not interested in listening to how right our side is and how we will get a release soon....

 

[John Pennekamp]

Why not hire mgmt that is worth their salt that can manage a profitable airline no matter what pilot costs are? Oh thats right we don't hire mgmt. Hey guess what, we also don't buy airplanes, or control where they fly. Delta has proven that they don't give a crap about quality, they have hired freedom and pinnacle. Your comments are exactly what mgmt wants to here, you are willing to continue to lower the bar to keep our flying, so where does it end? As soon as someone takes a cheaper contract to have an "advantageous" price are we to follow? Your comments make you sound job scared, you have already lost for this pilot group.

And your comments make you sound like a brain dead automaton marching in lockstep with your woefully misguided ALPA reps simply because someone told you you're either with them or against them. There aren't just two sides to a debate!

Whether you agree with my comments or not and whether management wants to "here" [sic] them or not, it is the new reality. It began in 1978 and we are only now seeing the effect because the industry has finally thrown in the towel in the last few years and decided to embrace capitalism. Something I've never championed, but I digress...

Burying your head in the sand will not change anything. Step back and try to see your adversary's side. You may still disagree with me afterwards, but doing so is a mark of intelligence. Wearing blinders and trying to shout the loudest that your side rules is a sign of a lack of intelligence. Something the "true believers" have in surplus.

 

[John Pennekamp]

No, why should I? I already know what will be said.... we will slap each other on the back, tell each other how great our side is, and how evil the company is. JR will say something like "we are comfortable with our position, and we expect a release". There will be about 40 pilots there, and most will be diehard ALPA supporters. The few that have questions about our strategy will largely be intimidated to say much, and if they do, they will be told that ALPA understands the competive nature, and will not do anything that harms ASA.

Let me know how close I am.....

Joe, that was such a cop out. Get off your butt, rally your troops, show up with an army, and raise hell! Otherwise your message is totally lost.

Don't be an irrelevant internet warrior. Show up, and make JR answer the tough questions in front of an audience!

 

[FightingIrish]

Well I went to the LEC meeting and I was very dissapointed in the turnout. There should of been more people there.
Nothing much new to report. ALPA is expecting to get a release this week or next week.
ALPA is confortable with what we are asking for and thinks we can get it.
ALPA says we can't get a single list with Skywest and that it isn't legal to demand it.

 

[ASARJMan]

Joe, that was such a cop out. Get off your butt, rally your troops, show up with an army, and raise hell! Otherwise your message is totally lost.

Don't be an irrelevant internet warrior. Show up, and make JR answer the tough questions in front of an audience!

Joey is all talk, no substance, and a pus*y for not having the balls to show up at the meeting. Army? What friggin' Army? Joey's message is lost as soon as he posts it. Joey is irrelevant and ignored by the vast majority who read the message boards, both here and ALPA. I wish Joey had showed up and tried to intimidate JR, but alas, he's a coward.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Maybe we should learn something from other professions..... transportablility of seniority goes a long way to building leverage in negotiations... the current approach isn't working Rez...

Actually the medical profession, especially surgical, it quite amazed at how discipline we function as flight crew. They are discarding the old paradigm that the Surgeon is God and other team members such as nurses and anethesiologist, can be effective. Sound familiar....

But back to your mypoic world of Joe Merchant. I am all for portable seniorty...

What do you have to offer to the problem Joe? Got any ideas?

"It is just the way it is" only works for an argument if you are willing to accept more of the same.... if want things to change, you will need to adjust your attitude and that of ALPA's....

The problem is guys like you want are so myopic that you have no idea what the other issues are... all you care about is your world. That is where you lose effectiveness. face it Joe... message boards are really the only place you get to debate your pet or hobby issues, namely the RJDC.

You are persona non grata at LEC meetings (that is why you claim such meetings have no value) and with the representatinal structure of your Airline.

No other profession would allow someone to fast track like we do.... it is both a safety issue and collective bargaining issue. I am glad that ALPA is finally saying something about it.... it may be too late however...

Have you ever objectively supported ALPA without being negative or cynical?

www.joermerchant.com/itsallaboutme

 

[scarlet]

ALPA did a single list with Mesa and Freedumb....Feedumb was not union??? It is leagally possible!!!!

HOW do you handle a mass of people= BY FEAR....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am done working within the system, as I believe it is broken and is benefiting neither side on the scope issue.

Translation: I don't know how to function within the system. Therefore the system and not me is broke.


Joe you are a radical element. Those that cannot function within the system and convince the masses that thier cause is valid are called radicals. And your lawsuit is a bomb.

Have you been reading the USAirways/AWA threads or the age 60 threads on the national boards.... not much honey flowing around ALPA these days Rez....

I don't read the national boards. Should I?

Ok.. so there isn't much honey? So what now?

I'm not bitter or angry, I just don't believe in ALPA. I am quite happy with my job and my company, and I am doing what I believe is best for ME. Politics doesn't usually solve many problems... look at the current immigration issue.... lot's of politicians and no leaders.... there is a difference....

Translation: I don't get it. I don't understand. I am all about me. If it doesn't concern me then I don't wanna know and I don't care.


Joe you have to be bitter and angry to file a lawsuit. Of course your doing what is best for "me". If ALPA has failed, it has failed to unify before problem solving. It has failed to instill a culture of profession custodians who understand that working collectively to save the profession is in the best interest of self centered guys like you.

We need more leaders, and less politicians..... you are obviously a politician....

ALPA is a politcal organization. Politicians can be leaders and vice versa. Who elects the leaders here at ALPA? Maybe that is a good place to start.

 

[FightingIrish]

Joey is all talk, no substance, and a pus*y for not having the balls to show up at the meeting. Army? What friggin' Army? Joey's message is lost as soon as he posts it. Joey is irrelevant and ignored by the vast majority who read the message boards, both here and ALPA. I wish Joey had showed up and tried to intimidate JR, but alas, he's a coward.

I wish he had been there, and I wish more pilots had been there. ASARJMan, the showing was pitiful. I guess nobody really cares.

 

[Tarzan]

Joe you have to be bitter and angry to file a lawsuit. Of course your doing what is best for "me". If ALPA has failed, it has failed to unify before problem solving. It has failed to instill a culture of profession custodians who understand that working collectively to save the profession is in the best interest of self centered guys like you.



ALPA is a politcal organization. Politicians can be leaders and vice versa. Who elects the leaders here at ALPA? Maybe that is a good place to start.

Rez.

While I may not agree with you all of the time, at least you give considerate and thoughtful responses.

I wanted to take issue with the Looking Out For Me that is tossed out generally to drive home the thought of selfishness. I disagree with the sentiment. I haven't been around the airline game very long (a couple of years) but long enough to have observed a few different places. Nor did I PFT or show up as 250 hour wonder. I've been around so to speak. The point here is that many senior members bandy this phrase about in an effort to hush the younger/junior guys. Take ASA with the lack of a huge payraise for the super senior guys. ASARJMan accused others of looking out for themselves while he looks only to his payraise and retro pay. As a junior guy at ASA, I care more about getting my time and moving on and not so much about retro (There does need to be some sort of punishment so this doesn't happen again) Does that make me selfish for not wanting to strike over retro? In the end, we are all out for own best interest and simply because someone doesn't feel that ALPA is serving it, doesn't justify a call of selfishness.

As he has spoken before, when you disagree with what the leaders seek, you generally get the same old line from them about how we are not looking for a trophy contract or how the pay rates are not industry leading or about how the union is right and the company is evil. (neither is right 100% of the time but both are correct from time to time as well)

In the end, I believe you nailed it down closer than you'd liked to have. ALPA has become a political organization. The problem is that power corrupts. It blinds people to what their true goals should be makes them believe they are right while the great unwashed masses don't know what is best for them. Look at Washington with the last Immigration Reform [sic] Bill. The outcry was huge from both sides. Yet the hacks believe they know better. Some of the ALPA has the same problem.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I wanted to take issue with the Looking Out For Me that is tossed out generally to drive home the thought of selfishness. I disagree with the sentiment. I haven't been around the airline game very long (a couple of years) but long enough to have observed a few different places. Nor did I PFT or show up as 250 hour wonder. I've been around so to speak. The point here is that many senior members bandy this phrase about in an effort to hush the younger/junior guys. Take ASA with the lack of a huge payraise for the super senior guys. ASARJMan accused others of looking out for themselves while he looks only to his payraise and retro pay. As a junior guy at ASA, I care more about getting my time and moving on and not so much about retro (There does need to be some sort of punishment so this doesn't happen again) Does that make me selfish for not wanting to strike over retro? In the end, we are all out for own best interest and simply because someone doesn't feel that ALPA is serving it, doesn't justify a call of selfishness.

So what is not political about what you've just said above here? And how is it different than any other domocratic sampling of the masses. Is it not the same with the US population only larger and more complex?

As he has spoken before, when you disagree with what the leaders seek, you generally get the same old line from them about how we are not looking for a trophy contract or how the pay rates are not industry leading or about how the union is right and the company is evil. (neither is right 100% of the time but both are correct from time to time as well)

The leaders usually do thier due diligence and find out what the majority want... then proceed. Are you sure you aren't talking about the vocal minority?

In the end, I believe you nailed it down closer than you'd liked to have. ALPA has become a political organization.

This is like saying he has become a human being. He was born a human being as ALPA was born a political organization!

This is what I don't get. Explain to me why you think ALPA has become a poltical organization. What were your beliefs that ALPA was before you realized that ALPA is a political organization?

The problem is that power corrupts.

What is corrupt? Who is corrupt? Who has gained?

It blinds people to what their true goals should be makes them believe they are right while the great unwashed masses don't know what is best for them. Look at Washington with the last Immigration Reform [sic] Bill. The outcry was huge from both sides. Yet the hacks believe they know better. Some of the ALPA has the same problem.

ok.... you've declared the problem.... what is the solution?

 

[ASARJMan]

I wish he had been there, and I wish more pilots had been there. ASARJMan, the showing was pitiful. I guess nobody really cares.

It's been that way a long time. Just like when voting is actually done, a very small percentage of pilots actually vote, and then bitch about things that are passed later. National/local elections are similar except every 4 years when more will participate.

Back in '98 this pilot group was together as one voice. We almost shut the damn place down. Alot of cancellations every day, and we didn't even have cancellation pay then. Pilots sucked it up and lost income to fight for a fair and just contract. Well we were successful, and the contract got settled quickly, the present one we're operating under right now. But this go around the majority don't care or remain uninformed, which is their choice.

Some of these pilots figure they're only passing thru on the way to Delta or others, and don't want to rock the boat. So, the ones who truly care are mostly senior and mid-level seniority pilots, who are content to remain at ASA. Nothing wrong with that either. What's wrong is not caring enough to improve our contract.

Many of you allow JM and JP and others to scare you into thinking ASA is going away. It isn't. What we are seeking is not to be at the very top of the regionals, although that is justified, but to be very near the top. We're one of the top regionals, maybe the most profitable, and what we're seeking is fair and just. It's just taking longer because the ASA pilots are not functioning as one unit, and management knows it, and exploits it.

So, the contract will get done regardless. Hopefully we'll hear from the NMB soon, and see where we're headed and what our options are. But sitting on the sidelines not caring and just being ignorant of what's going on is not the answer. All must participate and become one unified voice. Will that happen? Doubt it.

 

[FightingIrish]

Back in '98 this pilot group was together as one voice. We almost shut the damn place down. Alot of cancellations every day, and we didn't even have cancellation pay then. Pilots sucked it up and lost income to fight for a fair and just contract. Well we were successful, and the contract got settled quickly, the present one we're operating under right now. But this go around the majority don't care or remain uninformed, which is their choice.

I was here then, but times have changed. This isn't '98.

Some of these pilots figure they're only passing thru on the way to Delta or others, and don't want to rock the boat. So, the ones who truly care are mostly senior and mid-level seniority pilots, who are content to remain at ASA. Nothing wrong with that either. What's wrong is not caring enough to improve our contract.

Agreed, but what do we do about it? I am trying to get out of here just like most pilots, but I may not.

Many of you allow JM and JP and others to scare you into thinking ASA is going away. It isn't. What we are seeking is not to be at the very top of the regionals, although that is justified, but to be very near the top. We're one of the top regionals, maybe the most profitable, and what we're seeking is fair and just. It's just taking longer because the ASA pilots are not functioning as one unit, and management knows it, and exploits it.

Well they make a compelling argument for their theory. The record isn't exactly great for CMR, or ACA, or Allegany or others. What do you have to say to their points about the other regionals that have lost this game?

So, the contract will get done regardless. Hopefully we'll hear from the NMB soon, and see where we're headed and what our options are. But sitting on the sidelines not caring and just being ignorant of what's going on is not the answer. All must participate and become one unified voice. Will that happen? Doubt it.

And what if the NMB says more dates, and this just keeps dragging on. I and others are getting tired of this and we know that the current offer is better than what we have now. Even you doubt we are unified, maybe it is time to just settle?

 

[ugasucks]

Joe the RJDC is dead give it up,,,,,and don't give up on ALPA bc you might need them one day when something happens bc no one is perfect in this world and when the FAA comes calling on you don't say I didn't say so.

 

[Tarzan]

Rez,

There appeared to be little bit of a mind set in your reply. Somehow politics got convoluted with the entire thread.

No direct answer on why die hard union folks point at others and say they are out for themselves when it is a case of everybody wanting what is best for them. Lots of guys stand up and thump their chest and say, "They are out for the bets interest of everybody." I call it horse squeeze. Generally, what is good for one guy is also what another guy believes good for himself.

I fly the line. I talk to lots of other pilots. I generally get the feeling that some of the polling questions were manipulated to elicit a certain response. And yes, I was polled. Afterword, I thought that those were some danged difficult questions.

Maybe I phrased that not so well about ALPA becoming political. It was always a lobby entity. But, it seems that as times have progressed ALPA has become more concerned about it's own existence and power more than other issues. I am not trying to point fingers. We are all INCLUDING MYSELF capable of falling into this trap. As well intentioned as anyone can be, they can have their vision reduced by things such as "polling data." I just think there needs to be more interaction on all levels. I only wish more guys would get involved.

And sure, I have pointed at things I believe to problems. How I fix it? Dunno. But I am frustrated by the apparent slant put on the issues by the MEC and from National. Heck, half of the releases from the Local and National read like talking points from DC. Give me the straight answers and let me decide. Don't include phrases such as "management greed, etc" in updates. That may be a good point to start with. Tough fixes for a tough problem.